The Adamic Sin Nature
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No need to bring up the past brother. Are you holding a grudge? Certainly you don't like when I call others on their censure of God, but keep in mind I will continue to call them on it, and on those who cater to the heretics. Nothing against you, that's just a biblical mandate I wish to keep, and Bible supports it. Let's move forward and respect each other. If I say something you think is wrong, PM me. I know you think I'm vicious, but perhaps you've retracted those feelings? If not, that is OK too.
Yes, some make God a liar, this is true.
I believe there is "probation" in this sense: There ought to be evidence of conversion at and after proceeding of faith, IOW we ought to use caution in declaring persons saved, or lost, at profession, or otherwise down the road. Many take this "guarantee of heaven" in the wrong sense believing now, no matter how they live, they will escape hell and enter heaven.
As Paul Washer states we shouldn't "Popishly declare" a person on their way to heaven merely for a profession of faith after hearing the Gospel.
Yes, some make God a liar, this is true.
I believe there is "probation" in this sense: There ought to be evidence of conversion at and after proceeding of faith, IOW we ought to use caution in declaring persons saved, or lost, at profession, or otherwise down the road. Many take this "guarantee of heaven" in the wrong sense believing now, no matter how they live, they will escape hell and enter heaven.
As Paul Washer states we shouldn't "Popishly declare" a person on their way to heaven merely for a profession of faith after hearing the Gospel.
John 10:28-29
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Yes, babylon, yoke of false prophets leading into captivity lie about God.
The same false prophets are an example for us today as a warning.
This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8 Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the Lord.
The same false prophets are an example for us today as a warning.
This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8 Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the Lord.
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If we take Romans 8:13 in the manner that you are saying . . . then what do we do with verse the unequivocally say that
we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - Ephesians 1:13, 4:30. That if we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - we are saved (Romans 10:9) or if we believe in the only begotten Son of God, we have eternal life (John 3:16). Or that we are already raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:6)
Romans 8 is talking about a Christian's WALK. Those that walk by the Spirit and those that walk by the flesh - there are carnal Christians. If we walk by the Spirit, we have life and peace . . . if we don't, we have condemnation . . . If we walk by the Spirit, we will NOT walk after the flesh. To walk after the Spirit is to put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (spirit). It is a daily or even a moment to moment battle between the flesh and the Spirit - for the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, for these two things are contrary one with the other. (Galatians 5:17)
we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - Ephesians 1:13, 4:30. That if we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - we are saved (Romans 10:9) or if we believe in the only begotten Son of God, we have eternal life (John 3:16). Or that we are already raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:6)
Romans 8 is talking about a Christian's WALK. Those that walk by the Spirit and those that walk by the flesh - there are carnal Christians. If we walk by the Spirit, we have life and peace . . . if we don't, we have condemnation . . . If we walk by the Spirit, we will NOT walk after the flesh. To walk after the Spirit is to put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (spirit). It is a daily or even a moment to moment battle between the flesh and the Spirit - for the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, for these two things are contrary one with the other. (Galatians 5:17)
For the Christian, at the new birth the old nature (sin nature) died with Christ (see Romans 6). Then the believer was resurrected with Christ and now has a new nature.
So the born again believer no longer has the old sin nature, but he does have the flesh. And the sanctification of our flesh is an ongoing work till the day we die.
Not understanding the difference between the old nature and the flesh is a major point of contention and misperception on many of the thread here on CC.
Don't take my word for it: check out the use of the Greek word "sarks" (flesh) in the NT and see how it is clealy different from the Scriptural terms such as "old nature" and "old man". The Christian is never said to have the old man or old nature, but is often said to have the flesh (sarks).
So the born again believer no longer has the old sin nature, but he does have the flesh. And the sanctification of our flesh is an ongoing work till the day we die.
Not understanding the difference between the old nature and the flesh is a major point of contention and misperception on many of the thread here on CC.
Don't take my word for it: check out the use of the Greek word "sarks" (flesh) in the NT and see how it is clealy different from the Scriptural terms such as "old nature" and "old man". The Christian is never said to have the old man or old nature, but is often said to have the flesh (sarks).
Excuse me but aren't we told to put off the old man: That ye put off concerning the former conversationthe old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts. (Eph. 4:22); Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (Colossians 3:9) and to put on the new man: And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph. 4:24); And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Colossians 3:10). And aren't we told to mortify the deeds of the flesh (which is part of our old man nature) - We are partakers of the divine nature and therefore have that new creature born within us BUT still our old nature, the flesh, the old man. There are Christians who have not renewed and grown in knowledge and remain carnal Christians - Are they still saved? Yes . . . And then again maybe I don't understand???
Brother I'm not holding a grudge.
To be honest I wasn't sure if you were still.
So that's why I was and have been a bit tentative.
To be honest I wasn't sure if I was still on ignore.
I was just a bit hurt and I do realise that I reacted a few times wrongly.
For that I apologise.
I don't think you are vicious, I know your heart is to people set free from a false Gospel.
So yes I have retracted my feelings.
Yes I agree let's move forward.
I say the same to you, PM me as well. I really don't mind that. Our sister Magenta has done it, DC has done it, heck even myself to myself have done it "Note to Bill
Now enough of the love fest.
Yes I agree with you.
When a person declares faith in Jesus then evidence should follow.
The sinners prayer is not evidence of salvation.
To talk of being saved faith without wanting to walk in it or use it an excuse to carry on being as we are is an issue.
That is why we need to disciple people who profess faith.
Tell them what faith in Jesus really means.
Go through Romans 5-6.
If they reject that?
Then there is nothing more we can do. We just have to hand them over to God and pray.
I do believe though that if a believer is genuine in faith yet struggles then we can't place then in probation.
I genuinely do not believe God does that.
He knows who are his and those who are not.
I do not.
Anyway, it seems that maybe we have been reconciled.
I hope we have.
p4t my brother.
To be honest I wasn't sure if you were still.
So that's why I was and have been a bit tentative.
To be honest I wasn't sure if I was still on ignore.
I was just a bit hurt and I do realise that I reacted a few times wrongly.
For that I apologise.
I don't think you are vicious, I know your heart is to people set free from a false Gospel.
So yes I have retracted my feelings.
Yes I agree let's move forward.
I say the same to you, PM me as well. I really don't mind that. Our sister Magenta has done it, DC has done it, heck even myself to myself have done it "Note to Bill
Now enough of the love fest.
Yes I agree with you.
When a person declares faith in Jesus then evidence should follow.
The sinners prayer is not evidence of salvation.
To talk of being saved faith without wanting to walk in it or use it an excuse to carry on being as we are is an issue.
That is why we need to disciple people who profess faith.
Tell them what faith in Jesus really means.
Go through Romans 5-6.
If they reject that?
Then there is nothing more we can do. We just have to hand them over to God and pray.
I do believe though that if a believer is genuine in faith yet struggles then we can't place then in probation.
I genuinely do not believe God does that.
He knows who are his and those who are not.
I do not.
Anyway, it seems that maybe we have been reconciled.
I hope we have.
p4t my brother.
Good Day!
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
God Bless...
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
God Bless...
In every one of those references about the old man and the new man that you mention above the Greek aorist tense is used: that is point in time action and is something that has already happened for the Christian. Even the KJV often picks this up as you will see if you look carefully at the wording of the verses .
And yes, we are told to mortify the deed of the flesh (I think usually it is the "body"). Exactly! But the flesh is not the "old man". The old man, old nature, was that part of us that was born dead, separated from God. But then we were "born again" (that terminology is not just mere words), and now are "new creatures" in Christ Jesus.
But we are still in the flesh, and as human people living in the flesh, we still need to live out of our new natures by the power of the Holy Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh and of the body.
I see the "old man" and the "new man" as pertaining to the "spirit" level of man = the deepest part of who we are
I see the "flesh" as pertaining to the "body" and perhaps the "soul" part of who we are
In saying this I realize my position and my understanding is not the only evangelical understanding of these terms, but to me this understanding has greatly helped me understand the epistles of Paul.
Whatever you do with "old man, sin nature" and "flesh" -- do not make them the same thing: That is one of the gravest errors in understanding Paul's theology. The Greek word for flesh (sarks) is clearly never the same as Paul's use of "old man" and "old self" or "old nature".
And yes, we are told to mortify the deed of the flesh (I think usually it is the "body"). Exactly! But the flesh is not the "old man". The old man, old nature, was that part of us that was born dead, separated from God. But then we were "born again" (that terminology is not just mere words), and now are "new creatures" in Christ Jesus.
But we are still in the flesh, and as human people living in the flesh, we still need to live out of our new natures by the power of the Holy Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh and of the body.
I see the "old man" and the "new man" as pertaining to the "spirit" level of man = the deepest part of who we are
I see the "flesh" as pertaining to the "body" and perhaps the "soul" part of who we are
In saying this I realize my position and my understanding is not the only evangelical understanding of these terms, but to me this understanding has greatly helped me understand the epistles of Paul.
Whatever you do with "old man, sin nature" and "flesh" -- do not make them the same thing: That is one of the gravest errors in understanding Paul's theology. The Greek word for flesh (sarks) is clearly never the same as Paul's use of "old man" and "old self" or "old nature".
Brother I'm not holding a grudge.
To be honest I wasn't sure if you were still.
So that's why I was and have been a bit tentative.
To be honest I wasn't sure if I was still on ignore.
I was just a bit hurt and I do realise that I reacted a few times wrongly.
For that I apologise.
I don't think you are vicious, I know your heart is to people set free from a false Gospel.
So yes I have retracted my feelings.
Yes I agree let's move forward.
I say the same to you, PM me as well. I really don't mind that. Our sister Magenta has done it, DC has done it, heck even myself to myself have done it "Note to Bill
Now enough of the love fest.
Yes I agree with you.
When a person declares faith in Jesus then evidence should follow.
The sinners prayer is not evidence of salvation.
To talk of being saved faith without wanting to walk in it or use it an excuse to carry on being as we are is an issue.
That is why we need to disciple people who profess faith.
Tell them what faith in Jesus really means.
Go through Romans 5-6.
If they reject that?
Then there is nothing more we can do. We just have to hand them over to God and pray.
I do believe though that if a believer is genuine in faith yet struggles then we can't place then in probation.
I genuinely do not believe God does that.
He knows who are his and those who are not.
I do not.
Anyway, it seems that maybe we have been reconciled.
I hope we have.
p4t my brother.
To be honest I wasn't sure if you were still.
So that's why I was and have been a bit tentative.
To be honest I wasn't sure if I was still on ignore.
I was just a bit hurt and I do realise that I reacted a few times wrongly.
For that I apologise.
I don't think you are vicious, I know your heart is to people set free from a false Gospel.
So yes I have retracted my feelings.
Yes I agree let's move forward.
I say the same to you, PM me as well. I really don't mind that. Our sister Magenta has done it, DC has done it, heck even myself to myself have done it "Note to Bill
Now enough of the love fest.
Yes I agree with you.
When a person declares faith in Jesus then evidence should follow.
The sinners prayer is not evidence of salvation.
To talk of being saved faith without wanting to walk in it or use it an excuse to carry on being as we are is an issue.
That is why we need to disciple people who profess faith.
Tell them what faith in Jesus really means.
Go through Romans 5-6.
If they reject that?
Then there is nothing more we can do. We just have to hand them over to God and pray.
I do believe though that if a believer is genuine in faith yet struggles then we can't place then in probation.
I genuinely do not believe God does that.
He knows who are his and those who are not.
I do not.
Anyway, it seems that maybe we have been reconciled.
I hope we have.
p4t my brother.