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i was just curious what saying this would bring about. now you all have quoted plenty of scripture's on the subject and you all realize they could go "one or many being referred to". so ill not quote more at this time. but since we see this subject in such great controversy (it always resurfaces/new thread).so it,it seems is very important.
now each time we discuss this we are presented with (option A,many antichrist),,,(option B,only one),,,,what if there is an "option C" and no ones looking at it" john as the scr. states,says an "antichrist,is someone who cant confess that Christ is come in the flesh and that he was crucified for our sins" and there are many of these and until he (Christ) had come (in the flesh) and was crucified (in the flesh) this scripture could not be fulfilled. But then after he came and was crucified(in the flesh)then from that time forward "some could deny he came in the flesh" and as we know many did not believe he was the Messiah,and so the statement is true "among us now,doth already work ect." does apply.
But now let's look at "the man of sin",son of perdition,little horn,devil,ect. well the devil you see does not deny Christ (came in the flesh) he knows he did he tempted him many times in scripture,i.e. "the mount of temptation" he told Christ "all these kingdoms i will give thee ect." so the devil himself (does believe Christ came in the flesh,and died for the sins of the world)
So if you notice the definition of "antichrist" if it is the non-believer in the Messiah and the devil don't fit together. lets ask the questions,,,,,does the devil believe Christ came in the flesh?,,yes,,,does he believe he died for your sins?,,,yes,, does he believe he is the Messiah?,,,yes,,
so there's option A and there's option B,,,,and we always seek to disprove each other as the the correct path. Well what if there's "option C" and were so entangled in the argument about A&B,,,,,,,we never look at option C? what if there was a group of people who were deceived from the coming of Christ till now,,,,,"and,,,there is the deceiver,who will rise into power in the last 7 years" who comes and says "i am the Christ,i am god"?,,,now it would seem these things would be in the scripture,right?
go to rev.17;7-8 "i will tell the the mystery of the woman and the beast that carrieth her",,,,,,,,,,,wait now what? we all believe from john(gosphul),1st,2nd,3rd john that john the apostle already understands who the antichrist,whore,and seven headed beast are,,,,,,,,,,,don't we? that is he wrote all those books first and the last book he wrote was Revelations. so if the antichrist kingdom is any of these heads or the whore. And john already explained to us who the antichrist was,you know the little horn the last head of the beast.
,,,then why in the world is the angel stopping john in his tracks and telling him he will tell him "who they are"???????after the books where he explains to you who the antichrist is?????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see you mixing option a,b,and c together,,,,,,,,there is the antichrist(one thing by it's self),,,,,,,,,,,,,and there is the (son of perdition),,,,,,,,,,,both,,,
now each time we discuss this we are presented with (option A,many antichrist),,,(option B,only one),,,,what if there is an "option C" and no ones looking at it" john as the scr. states,says an "antichrist,is someone who cant confess that Christ is come in the flesh and that he was crucified for our sins" and there are many of these and until he (Christ) had come (in the flesh) and was crucified (in the flesh) this scripture could not be fulfilled. But then after he came and was crucified(in the flesh)then from that time forward "some could deny he came in the flesh" and as we know many did not believe he was the Messiah,and so the statement is true "among us now,doth already work ect." does apply.
But now let's look at "the man of sin",son of perdition,little horn,devil,ect. well the devil you see does not deny Christ (came in the flesh) he knows he did he tempted him many times in scripture,i.e. "the mount of temptation" he told Christ "all these kingdoms i will give thee ect." so the devil himself (does believe Christ came in the flesh,and died for the sins of the world)
So if you notice the definition of "antichrist" if it is the non-believer in the Messiah and the devil don't fit together. lets ask the questions,,,,,does the devil believe Christ came in the flesh?,,yes,,,does he believe he died for your sins?,,,yes,, does he believe he is the Messiah?,,,yes,,
so there's option A and there's option B,,,,and we always seek to disprove each other as the the correct path. Well what if there's "option C" and were so entangled in the argument about A&B,,,,,,,we never look at option C? what if there was a group of people who were deceived from the coming of Christ till now,,,,,"and,,,there is the deceiver,who will rise into power in the last 7 years" who comes and says "i am the Christ,i am god"?,,,now it would seem these things would be in the scripture,right?
go to rev.17;7-8 "i will tell the the mystery of the woman and the beast that carrieth her",,,,,,,,,,,wait now what? we all believe from john(gosphul),1st,2nd,3rd john that john the apostle already understands who the antichrist,whore,and seven headed beast are,,,,,,,,,,,don't we? that is he wrote all those books first and the last book he wrote was Revelations. so if the antichrist kingdom is any of these heads or the whore. And john already explained to us who the antichrist was,you know the little horn the last head of the beast.
,,,then why in the world is the angel stopping john in his tracks and telling him he will tell him "who they are"???????after the books where he explains to you who the antichrist is?????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see you mixing option a,b,and c together,,,,,,,,there is the antichrist(one thing by it's self),,,,,,,,,,,,,and there is the (son of perdition),,,,,,,,,,,both,,,
A
Bookends. You make a good point. Therapon sounds intelligent. However, if we wre to take what he says to be true then the Bible is done and we have no need for it. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I do not believe all prohecy has been fulfilled. for one thing, no one has been made to receive a mark in his right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell. That technology hasn't been available until recently. Also, there has never been a 7 year peace treaty with Israel that will be broken in the middle of. As far as I know Jesus has not set up His kingdom in Jerusalem yet...unless it happened today. I haven't watched TV yet today. But, I think someone would have mentioned it. I also supposeby his comments that he doesn't believe Jesus will return.
I don't believe this mark you are referring is a literal mark. If you interpret the mark in revelations with the rest of the bible, the mark is a reference in who you belong too. The mark on the forehead reflects what your world view is, you can have the mark of the beast or the mark of the lamb. The mark no the hand reflects what you do, which also reflects what you truly believe.
Take this text for instance,
Ezekiel 9:1-4
Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple.[SUP][a][/SUP] And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
You don't suggest that God actually came down with a magic marker and literally put a mark on their foreheads, do you? Well neither do I when John speaks of the mark of the beast in Revelation. To assume the evil "mark of the beast" is something literal is, IMO, to ignore the wisdom of God contained in His word, or perhaps to just be ignorant of it. But Scripture only and ever uses marks as figurative, not literal. Peace.
Take this text for instance,
Ezekiel 9:1-4
Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple.[SUP][a][/SUP] And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
You don't suggest that God actually came down with a magic marker and literally put a mark on their foreheads, do you? Well neither do I when John speaks of the mark of the beast in Revelation. To assume the evil "mark of the beast" is something literal is, IMO, to ignore the wisdom of God contained in His word, or perhaps to just be ignorant of it. But Scripture only and ever uses marks as figurative, not literal. Peace.
S
This is a very interesting thread and I haven't had time to read it all, but I like the way you're presenting this. I always believed, and was taught, that the mark was literal, and it wasn't until recently that I started thinking about other options because of what I was reading in Rev and the passage from Ez that you posted. There were some other scriptures referring to the hand and forehead, but it being a spiritual mark. I'm kind of wondering what that looks like, though, when there is an obvious distinction between God's people and those who "receive the mark"....if it's a spiritual mark, how does anyone tell the difference. How can we not buy and sell without it? I was thinking of it like Soviet Russia when they rationed food, and those who didn't carry a Communist card were the outcasts and many times starved. In order to survive, many caved in and became members of the party. Maybe it will be like that. Maybe it will come to the point where food is rationed again and you won't be able to just go to a grocery store to buy what you want. If you aren't part of the system, you won't be able to survive (without God's help). We're told that anyone who wouldn't worship the Beast was put to death. What does "worship the Beast" mean? Is it literally bowing down to worship a person, or is it a system that is so wicked that we cannot allow ourselves to be a part of it. These are just thoughts...I can't say I have an opinion either way.
A
Bookends. That is a good ppoint and I have considered that. What I was getting at is this. If no one can buy or sell without this mark, how would someone be denied buying or selling. How would someone know that someone is a christian and then deny them services? Does that make sense? The Bible also says that anyone who does not receive this "mark" will be killed for obeying the system that the antichrist sets up? And no, I don't believe God will come down with a marker and mark those who accept the antichrist.
A
Songbird, we must be thinking along the same lines. I still believe it could be a physical mark. I think when the antichrist or this system comes along people will want to show who they follow. Sorta like a sign of loyalty? In anycase, if it were to become a law to have a mark, wouldn't you think to yourself, "This sounds familiar?" to take it would be like trying to have your cake and eat it to. Jesus even said that we can't serve 2 masters. Not everything in the Bible has to be symbolic or allegorized. If you have a strongs concordance look up the word "mark". It has a good explanation.
S
The beasts that Daniel saw were kingdoms, and it seems that there are a lot of parallels between the OT prophesies and what John saw in Rev. The description of the beast rising out of the water makes me think of a kingdom, or kingdoms. I'm wondering about the deadly wound that was healed on one of the 7 heads. In Rev 13:14 it says that the wound was caused by a sword. If this isn't a literal wound on a literal person, what is it? Also, the number of the beast is the number of a man. Everyone is required to have the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Given that description, it certainly sounds physical. It also says "in the hand OR the forehead" and no one can buy or sell without it. What is the "image of the beast" that people worship? If the beast (or antichrist) is not a person, how do you make an image of it that comes to life and can talk? Then those who don't worship this image are put to death. I also wonder about the 2nd beast, the false prophet. Any ideas about who that is? (and I apologize if this was already discussed).
Honestly, I think that when the time comes the truth will be revealed to God's people. If we are truly His and our names are in His book, He will not allow us to be deceived. This is all such a mystery and there are many interesting opinions.
Honestly, I think that when the time comes the truth will be revealed to God's people. If we are truly His and our names are in His book, He will not allow us to be deceived. This is all such a mystery and there are many interesting opinions.
First, let me tell that I approach Revelations with the mind set that it was written to the early 1st century church, but for us today in that we can gleam all the good stuff and apply it to our lives. I believe Revelations was given to John before 70AD, when Christian persecution was in full throttle by the Roman and empire and the Jewish zealots. Back then, most people were farmers or had a trade. To compete and be successful, because of the times, slow travel, lack of law enforcement etc, it was common for tradesmen to belong to a guild. A guild back then maybe similar to a workers union of today. Most of the trade guilds in the roman empire had to acknowledge the Caesars as a god, if they didn't then the Caesar would make it difficult on them to buy or sell their product within the empire. If a Christian back then wanted to join a guild, say a carpenter, he/she may had to have to join a guild in order to do business, because if he didn't, then the guild would try to make it impossible for the Christian to business within their community. Most of these guilds held partys and had rules that were also contrary to God, such as heaving drinking, orgies, etc...Thus in this aspect it was hard to buy and sell.
We have glimpses in Scripture where we see this very thing I explained above;
The Compromising Church
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
and
The Corrupt Church
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [SUP]19 [/SUP]“I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. [SUP]20[/SUP]Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But hold fast what you have till I come. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I will give him the morning star.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Also the Church of the Laodiceans, the Lukewarm Church, had it's problems too. Why these specific letters to the churches? Because of the pressure of the culture to get them to compromise their faith. Jesus was warning them and correcting them (the churches as a whole, not individuals), and giving them hope in His vindication (which was near) if they didn't abandon their faith and remained obedient.
Read the book of Acts again, the book of Acts records the beginnings of the Christian Church. From Acts 6 onward you read about the persecutions and tribulations of the 1st century church by Romans and Jews. Acts 14[SUP]:22 [/SUP]strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
IMO, it very important when you read scripture to understand who the books of the bible are written to, to understand what was going on in their day, close your eyes and place yourself among them and to understand why the message was written to them, then you can take what you learn and apply it you and the church today. The Church has gone through good times and bad times through out history, and it seems to be that the Church grows the most during the bad times. We may see times for the church get harder, praise God if it does, the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, may I count my (physical) life as lost for Christ's sake, for death in Christ is gain, not physical gain, but spiritual gain, not spiritual gain for me, but for the growth of the church.
We have glimpses in Scripture where we see this very thing I explained above;
The Compromising Church
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
and
The Corrupt Church
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [SUP]19 [/SUP]“I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. [SUP]20[/SUP]Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But hold fast what you have till I come. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I will give him the morning star.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Also the Church of the Laodiceans, the Lukewarm Church, had it's problems too. Why these specific letters to the churches? Because of the pressure of the culture to get them to compromise their faith. Jesus was warning them and correcting them (the churches as a whole, not individuals), and giving them hope in His vindication (which was near) if they didn't abandon their faith and remained obedient.
Read the book of Acts again, the book of Acts records the beginnings of the Christian Church. From Acts 6 onward you read about the persecutions and tribulations of the 1st century church by Romans and Jews. Acts 14[SUP]:22 [/SUP]strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
IMO, it very important when you read scripture to understand who the books of the bible are written to, to understand what was going on in their day, close your eyes and place yourself among them and to understand why the message was written to them, then you can take what you learn and apply it you and the church today. The Church has gone through good times and bad times through out history, and it seems to be that the Church grows the most during the bad times. We may see times for the church get harder, praise God if it does, the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, may I count my (physical) life as lost for Christ's sake, for death in Christ is gain, not physical gain, but spiritual gain, not spiritual gain for me, but for the growth of the church.
It is the Christians responsibility not to buy or sell against his/her conscience. If someone or government requires you to buy something that goes against what the bible teaches, the Holy Spirit that abides in you, then you should not buy or sell. After saying that, I am convicted, for the first thing that pops in my head is Obama care and it's support for abortion.
I believe that Daniel was a prophecy regarding the 1st coming of Christ, and the hardships leading up to that point. IMO I believe the prophecies in Daniel were for the returning Jews from the captivity and leading up the 1st coming of Christ, dealing most with the Grecian empire. I can't write down and explain it all here, but Jay E Adam I feel does an excellent job of doing a verse by verse exegesis on Daniel, go to (((click here for Sermons on Daniel by Jay E Adams ))) sermonaudio.com if you are interested.
I also believe where Daniel leaves off, Revelations picks up and Revelation deals with mostly the 4th beast of Daniel. If we put most of Revelation to be yet future, then we can make it say whatever we think or want. I did a piece here about why I believe Babylon the harlot is referring to 1st century ancient Israel, and this is what really sold me in interpreting Revelation to be mostly in our past, but John's future. If you are interested, you can read my 15-16 reasons why Babylon the harlot is ancient Israel (((click 15-16 reasons)))
I also believe where Daniel leaves off, Revelations picks up and Revelation deals with mostly the 4th beast of Daniel. If we put most of Revelation to be yet future, then we can make it say whatever we think or want. I did a piece here about why I believe Babylon the harlot is referring to 1st century ancient Israel, and this is what really sold me in interpreting Revelation to be mostly in our past, but John's future. If you are interested, you can read my 15-16 reasons why Babylon the harlot is ancient Israel (((click 15-16 reasons)))
Thinking of food....
Executive order 10998 gives the government control over food supply. Though they sugar coat it, to make it seem like it's needed, as they do with other exec orders, this order could allow them to control who gets food and who doesn't. This is exactly what Hitler did. Hitler said that food could be used as a tool "to discipline the masses" and he did not hesitate to use the control of food as a type of carrot and stick, in which he would reward accomplishment and punish failure.
I believe communism/Fascism is coming very soon.
I'm not implying that Obama is the antichrist. I think he's just a puppet with someone else pulling his strings. Have you noticed how it doesn't make a difference which president you get, they all seem to have the same agenda...that of the Jesuits.
Executive order 10998 gives the government control over food supply. Though they sugar coat it, to make it seem like it's needed, as they do with other exec orders, this order could allow them to control who gets food and who doesn't. This is exactly what Hitler did. Hitler said that food could be used as a tool "to discipline the masses" and he did not hesitate to use the control of food as a type of carrot and stick, in which he would reward accomplishment and punish failure.
I believe communism/Fascism is coming very soon.
I'm not implying that Obama is the antichrist. I think he's just a puppet with someone else pulling his strings. Have you noticed how it doesn't make a difference which president you get, they all seem to have the same agenda...that of the Jesuits.
Heh, you never know whats coming down the pike exactly, I'm not a doomsday prepper yet, but it doesn't hurt to learn about what God put here for you to eat.
[h=1]
[/h]
Forager's Harvest
[h=1]
Forager's Harvest
A
I've a a guy named Arnold Murray speak about a lot of this and disagree on a lot that he says. I'm sure he is a good guy and all. But, some of the things he says is kinda out there. A lot of pople try to spiritualize everything. Some things are obviously symbols But I think a lot are literal. When John talks of "an" Antichristwhen referring to the last days, I think he means just that. A real person. An idea can't be wounded. Or healed.
The 2nd beast is the false prophet. I think his initial job is to convince the world to follow the first beast...the THE antichrist. From what I understand...at the halfway point of the tribulation He will even trn away from this supposed one world religion. He will not be willingly to share the spot light with anyone or anything. I can't speculate on who either one is. But, I think as time progresses those who are wise and belong to God wiill see things becoming more clear.
As far as The antichrist just being a system and not a person...I can't buy that. The way things are in the world, people are looking for a "someone" not a "something or system" to follow. They will want a person to look for help and guidance. I also think the Holy Spirit will keep those who are truly His from following the wrong one...WHEN he shows up.
The 2nd beast is the false prophet. I think his initial job is to convince the world to follow the first beast...the THE antichrist. From what I understand...at the halfway point of the tribulation He will even trn away from this supposed one world religion. He will not be willingly to share the spot light with anyone or anything. I can't speculate on who either one is. But, I think as time progresses those who are wise and belong to God wiill see things becoming more clear.
As far as The antichrist just being a system and not a person...I can't buy that. The way things are in the world, people are looking for a "someone" not a "something or system" to follow. They will want a person to look for help and guidance. I also think the Holy Spirit will keep those who are truly His from following the wrong one...WHEN he shows up.