THE APOSTLES WERE STILL HUMAN

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#1
Ok, this may take some understanding, and cause some misunderstanding..........please read with a loving Christian heart....and know that these are JUST MY THOUGHTS.......not to be taken as THUS SAYETH THE LORD.

The ApostlesWere Still Human
I know this may go without saying, but sometimes I think we forget that the Apostles were still human, and as such, were subject to all the things we believers today are subject to. They made mistakes, they strayed towards the “flesh” from time to time just as we believers today do. I think it is good for us to understand this because as we search for unity among believers, it is important to know that the Apostles, and the early Church struggled with many of the same things that we today struggle with.

Acts 15:1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 .) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 .) And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 .) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 .) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 .) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


[Here we can see that there was division among the Apostles, the elders, and members of the Church at Jerusalem as to what they should be teaching. Certain members insisted that the Law of Moses must still be taught, even unto circumcision in order for new believersto be saved. Paul and Barnabas did not agree with this and disputed this teaching, and notice what happened. ]

[ Vs. 6)And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter

[Clearly there was disagreement among them,and the fact that they actually came together to “consider” this matter shows that they gave some credit to the idea of continuing to teach the Law of Moses unto salvation.]


Then Peter rose to speak, and said the following:
7 .)And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 .) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 .) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 .) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 .) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[Here Peter(in my opinion) is saying that they should be teaching the Gospel of JesusChrist and not the Law of Moses for neither their fathers nor the apostles themselves could bear the “yoke” of the Law of Moses unto salvation. Rather it is “through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ” that they will receive salvation.
Then Paul and Barnabas gave testimony of what God had done among the Gentiles through them…….as shown in[

vs. 12) Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


[Then James(who many believe to have been the Pastor of the Jerusalem Church) rose tospeak:]

13) And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 .) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 .) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 .) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 .) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 .) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 .) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 .) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 .) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


[Notice what James did here (for I believe it to be important to understand). He considered the desires of those who insisted that the Law of Moses still be taught, and considered the desires of those who only wanted to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation; AND HE REACHED A COMPRAMISE. He suggested that they only teach part of theLaw of Moses, and specified which should be taught, but that they were to“trouble not” the new believers among the Gentiles with more than this from the Law of Moses]
.

[ 20) .) But that we write unto them,that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. ]

The actual message delivered is found in

vs. 28)
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 .) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


[Even though this appeared to have settled what would be taught, there remained those who still insisted on circumcision, for in following Chapters of Acts we see itspoken of….

There were also “disputes” between the Apostles which many of us today can relate to I would think. They certainly had their own “personal” belief as to the meaning of the Gospel of Jesus and how it should be taught. The dispute between Paul and Peter is one of the most known as it is recorded in Galatians.]

Galatians2:11) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 .) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 .) And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 .) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 .) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 .) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of JesusChrist, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


[Consider that Paul actually charged Peter with hypocrisy in this exchange between them……and given that Peter was one of the original 12 disciples, this was nosmall thing!

Yet, Paul himself fell to the “flesh” when his dispute with Barnabas led to their division of ministry……..]

vs.
36) And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.
37 .) And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 .) But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia,and went not with them to the work.
39 .) And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 .) And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
41 .) And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.


[We could ask: Who was right, or who was wrong? Who was walking in the Spirit, or who was walking in the flesh? What we do know is that the two had such a great dispute between them that they parted ways, and given what God had accomplished through their joint ministry before this, it is no small thing that they did part ways in my opinion.


By his own admission, Paul himself was far from perfect as he states in]

2[SUP]nd[/SUP]Corinthians 12:6)
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 .) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 .) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 .) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 .)Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


[I write allthis to say that we should not expect ourselves or others to have “perfect understanding,” or to walk the perfect Christ like walk, but rather to know that we are human, and as such, we will at times falter, stumble, argue, speak sharply towards one another, and in all of this, we will have to seek forgiveness from God and from our brothers and sisters in Christ. If those who “walked shoulder to shoulder”with Jesus Christ were mere mortals, and subject to all that I have stated, how can we expect ourselves or others to rise above them? What we can expect is to love one another as He loved us………..and, if we do this, I think we will do well. God bless…………..]
 
Aug 5, 2013
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#2
If those who “walked shoulder to shoulder”with Jesus Christ were mere mortals, and subject to all that I have stated, how can we expect ourselves or others to rise above them?
Because we have cognitive biases that cause us to think very highly of ourselves and less of others. It's easy to spot someone else's mistake and so difficult to see our own. Also, we feel the need to defend people on "our team" (such as biblical characters that we admire) because, if we identify with them, we feel that we're being attacked when they are.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you. I thought this was thoughtful and well-written, and I like the effort.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#3

[Notice what James did here (for I believe it to be important to understand). He considered the desires of those who insisted that the Law of Moses still be taught, and considered the desires of those who only wanted to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation; AND HE REACHED A COMPRAMISE. He suggested that they only teach part of theLaw of Moses, and specified which should be taught, but that they were to“trouble not” the new believers among the Gentiles with more than this from the Law of Moses]
I really don't think it was a compromise; it was simply a sensible recommendation to avoid offense. James counseled that gentile believers not do the things mentioned only so that Jews in the cities they dwelt in wouldn't be offended and stumble at the gospel and consequently persecute believers. That's why his counsel ends with:

21 .) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#4
This part of scripture is so hard to understand. We really need to try to understand just what the people of that day were thinking and feeling to know what the bible is telling us.

We think of gentiles as being Christian and Jews as denying Christ. During the time of Acts, the Jews they are talking about were the Christians, the gentiles were mostly idol worshippers. When they thought of god, they thought of idols that they went to temples on Sunday to worship. They thought of Jews as strange people who lived differently. Sometimes some of them were attracted to the Jewish God and asked to join them. The Jews found that often this was just a passing fancy of a gentile, they didn't encourage it. If a gentile insisted, he was told to do many things to show he was sincere and it was lasting. He was not only to love the one true God, but live the Jewish lifestyle from circumcision to changing how he ate.

When Pater and Paul told them they wanted to present the gospel without demanding that they change their lifestyle it was met with what you read about in Acts. They had to learn scripture and they couldn't even be allowed in the synagogue to learn scripture if they insisted on living the pagan lifestyle. That is why Paul accepted the basic guidelines to teach them when they gave them the gospel, it was just enough so they could go to synagogue. It was the only way they had to learn scripture. The NT came later.

Men who wrote the history of those times tell of a list of 18 basic rules the people had to follow to join them. We have divided Judaism and Christianity, now, but it wasn't divided out then. When Paul wrote that letter to the Galatians it was big news, then. Jews had gone to them telling them to use the 18 laws to join the worship of God, Paul called them the law and sometimes simply circumcision. We know of the list only because it is referred to by men of the time, there isn't one copy left for us to see. By reading history from other sources than the bible, we can know what God and Paul thought of the list for teaching gentiles.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#5
I really don't think it was a compromise; it was simply a sensible recommendation to avoid offense. James counseled that gentile believers not do the things mentioned only so that Jews in the cities they dwelt in wouldn't be offended and stumble at the gospel and consequently persecute believers. That's why his counsel ends with:
21 .) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
extraction: I really don't think it was a compromise; it was simply a sensible recommendation to avoid offense. close extraction.............. A sensible recommendation to avoid offense........there was debate betwixt those who instead on teaching Gentiles that they must follow the laws of Moses, and those who insisted on teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.........for salvation.........James realized the seriousness of this possible split of the church at Jerusalem over this matter, and "reached a sensible recommendation to avoid offending either of the two parties...........

Is that not a compromise? If not, how not?

Thanks for your comment. :)
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#6
there was debate betwixt those who instead on teaching Gentiles that they must follow the laws of Moses, and those who insisted on teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.........for salvation.........
. :)
Those who wanted the gentiles taught the "law of Moses", you say. There was no question in any one's mind about teaching the law of Moses. What the problem was is teaching to live the lifestyle of the Jews, regarding circumcision, foods to eat, feasts to keep and how. Scripture sometimes call this the law of Moses, but in their minds the law of love that the ten commandments represents was not in question at all. Neither was it a question in anyone's mind to not teach the way of salvation. The question was teaching the gospel alone, without teaching about feasts and food, or including all teaching. No one considered teaching lifestyle without the gospel.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#7
I see this... Peter said the Gentiles he preached too, Cornelius and his people, received the Holy Spirit, and we know Peter did, then why does he say... But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Do you see that Peter is talking to UNSAVED Jews? Salvation is only complete when a person receives the Holy Spirit. The people that wants to lay the burden of the "LAW" on the Gentiles does not have the Holy Spirit. No person can "KEEP the LAW" only Jesus can. And he does it in ALL PEOPLE WHO HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN FULL.

The SEED of GOD in a person is what KEEPS THE LAW ... or KEEPS GOD'S WORD... And these people is NOT HUMAN, and such a person CANNOT sin. 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18, Eph 4:11 to 13. Jesus says.... He who keeps my Word is the one who loves me, and becasue he loves Me, my Father will love him and we will come and make Our abode with him....

Father does not live in dirty houses... Jesus prepares the house with the Word and HIS BLOOD, and then Jesus LEADS a person to HOLINESS. And that person is made free by the WORD OF GOD (Truth) and then that person KEEPS THE TRUTH, and Father will move in, and that person is made "True holiness" The perfect gift from above... The fulfilling of the Holy Spirit and the abode of Fater and Son and Holy Spirit in a holy SAVED PERSON!

How can any two people be made PERFECTLY ONE (John 17) if GOd is not FULL IN THE TWO PEOPLE? Only GOD IS ONE! And He remains ONE IN ALL HIS CHILDREN.... God made more than 5000 men ONE SOUL, ONE SPIRIT in acts 4. GOd still makes ALL HOLY PEOPLE ONE IN HIM... That is the UNITY OF THE FAITH... Eph 4:11 to 13. The PERFECT MAN... No human will EVER be perfect. That is why Jesus said... if my kingdom was from this world my people would have fought for it, but it is NOT of this world, neither is HIS PEOPLE, they ARE OF GOD. BORN OF GOD 1 John 3:9, and they CANNOT SIN. They are BORN OF GOD, not human!
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#8
quote from Cobus: Do you see that Peter is talking to UNSAVED Jews? Salvation is only complete when a person receives the Holy Spirit. The people that wants to lay the burden of the "LAW" on the Gentiles does not have the Holy Spirit. No person can "KEEP the LAW" only Jesus can. And he does it in ALL PEOPLE WHO HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN FULL. end quote.....

I don't read it that way, with regards to him speaking to unsaved Jews......reason being he was speaking to the Congregation, Elders of the church at Jerusalem, and to the Apostles gathered there.........seems to me that those in attendance would indeed be saved.........but thanks for your comment.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#9
It (Acts 15) decision was not a human compromise as Peter was shown in Acts 10 about receiving gentiles both in his vision and his visit to Cornelius . Paul was also adamant about no compromise with the Gospel which he had received from God and was commissioned with that Gospel never compromising. Acts 15 was simply a matter of not setting stumbling blocks before many Jewish believers.
I do agree though we are fickle in our human tabernacle and in need of continual forgiveness and to forgive others...but compromise?...not if it involves the Gospel.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#10
It (Acts 15) decision was not a human compromise as Peter was shown in Acts 10 about receiving gentiles both in his vision and his visit to Cornelius . Paul was also adamant about no compromise with the Gospel which he had received from God and was commissioned with that Gospel never compromising. Acts 15 was simply a matter of not setting stumbling blocks before many Jewish believers.
I do agree though we are fickle in our human tabernacle and in need of continual forgiveness and to forgive others...but compromise?...not if it involves the Gospel.
Interesting view given the division that surely existed between those who wanted the Laws of Moses taught to the Gentiles seeking salvation, and the Apostles who insisted that salvation was by Grace, and not by the Laws of Moses........and James, as the leader of the church, had to make a decision..........so, given that he came up with a "partial" teaching of the Law of Moses, and the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...........what else can it be called?

BTW.............I do not see James's decision to be a "compromise" of the Gospel whatsoever, and, apparently the Apostles didn't either............even Paul..........for if you read all the way to the end of Acts, you will see that Paul states that he taught this very thing to the Gentiles.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#11
Interesting view given the division that surely existed between those who wanted the Laws of Moses taught to the Gentiles seeking salvation, and the Apostles who insisted that salvation was by Grace, and not by the Laws of Moses........and James, as the leader of the church, had to make a decision..........so, given that he came up with a "partial" teaching of the Law of Moses, and the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...........what else can it be called?

BTW.............I do not see James's decision to be a "compromise" of the Gospel whatsoever, and, apparently the Apostles didn't either............even Paul..........for if you read all the way to the end of Acts, you will see that Paul states that he taught this very thing to the Gentiles.
When you talk so of the law your are speaking against Christ, for Christ is love, love is the law, it is all one. You talk of obeying the law through Christ, and this is so, but you must be the one who accepts and cooperates. It is not something apart from your will. You are getting law and obeying rituals all mixed up.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#12
Is that not a compromise? If not, how not?
IMO, a compromise would have centered around how gentiles were to be saved; and would have involved a mix of works and grace. As crossnote well said above, there is no compromise with the gospel. Paul did not compromise his gospel, but merely agreed to sensible guidelines for gentiles. He already taught not to do two of the three things mentioned by James.

Please see this thread for more clarity - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73540-noahide-laws.html
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#13
IMO, a compromise would have centered around how gentiles were to be saved; and would have involved a mix of works and grace. As crossnote well said above, there is no compromise with the gospel. Paul did not compromise his gospel, but merely agreed to sensible guidelines for gentiles. He already taught not to do two of the three things mentioned by James.

Please see this thread for more clarity - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73540-noahide-laws.html
I actually read your comment on that thread........seems to me you are avoiding the word compromise simply because it has a negative connotation possibly? I also said there is no compromise with the Gospel, and as James made the decision what would be taught to the Gentiles, and it was his decision, he must not have seen this as a compromise of the Gospel, rather a compromise between the two factions within the church and what they wanted to teach...........This same sort of thing occurs today within the Church between various denominations.......and when pressed to find "unity," they usually do agree upon "common ground."

God bless, and if y'all feel better calling it "sensible guidelines" that's ok with me............as I stated in the OP, this was not intended as THUS SAYETH THE LORD, but just my thoughts............
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#14
When you talk so of the law your are speaking against Christ, for Christ is love, love is the law, it is all one. You talk of obeying the law through Christ, and this is so, but you must be the one who accepts and cooperates. It is not something apart from your will. You are getting law and obeying rituals all mixed up.
I'm simply stating what occurred in Acts 15............I don't see how I am mixing up "law and obeying rituals" as I simply quoted what is recorded in Acts 15........if there is a mix up it has to be on their part........they were determining what would be taught to the Gentiles amongst themselves.......and James came up with the answer......
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#15
I actually read your comment on that thread........seems to me you are avoiding the word compromise simply because it has a negative connotation possibly?
I actually wanted to nip in the bud any thought that a decision was made by the apostles that gentiles were supposed to be followers of any, or part, of the law of Moses.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#16
I'm simply stating what occurred in Acts 15............I don't see how I am mixing up "law and obeying rituals" as I simply quoted what is recorded in Acts 15........if there is a mix up it has to be on their part........they were determining what would be taught to the Gentiles amongst themselves.......and James came up with the answer......
. You are not defining the law of Moses accurately in terms of what was happening at the time, you are understanding in terms of what is happening in 2013.

If you include all law, including the ten commandments, in the "law of Moses" you are saying that God made a mistake when God gave these laws, that those commandments were not a law of love, and that is not so.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#17
I actually wanted to nip in the bud any thought that a decision was made by the apostles that gentiles were supposed to be followers of any, or part, of the law of Moses.
Acts 15:24

Now you will se these translations have a VERY DIFFERENT READING

New International Version

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

New Living Translation
"We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!


English Standard Version
Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,

New American Standard Bible
"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,


King James Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Because we have heard that some without our authorization went out from us and troubled you with their words and unsettled your hearts,

International Standard Version
We have heard that some men, coming from us without instructions from us, have said things to trouble you and have unsettled you.


NET Bible
Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“We hear that men among us went out and have alarmed you with words and have subverted your souls, as they were saying, 'Be circumcised and keep The Law', which we have not commanded them.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation
We have heard that some individuals who came from us have confused you with statements that disturb you. We did not authorize these men [to speak].


Jubilee Bible 2000
forasmuch as we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law, to whom we gave no such commandment,

King James 2000 Bible
Since we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

American King James Version
For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


American Standard Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;


Douay-Rheims Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment:


Darby Bible Translation
Inasmuch as we have heard that some who went out from amongst us have troubled you by words, upsetting your souls, saying that ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no commandment;


English Revised Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;


Webster's Bible Translation
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain who went out from us, have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment:


Weymouth New Testament
As we have been informed that certain persons who have gone out from among us have disturbed you by their teaching and have unsettled your minds, without having received any such instructions from us;


World English Bible
Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law,' to whom we gave no commandment;

Young's Literal Translation
seeing we have heard that certain having gone forth from us did trouble you with words, subverting your souls, saying to be circumcised and to keep the law, to whom we did give no charge,



Why is it that some say "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law" and some do not say this at all?

Well the Nestle-Aland greek NT, the United Bible Societies, and the oldest Manuscripts these words "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law" are not included.

In context, Acts 15:24, "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you, and
unsettled; brought confusion to, your minds through statements which are not authorized by us", they are saying some people taught a doctrine that the Apostles DID NOT AUTHORIZE, however in the original what that doctrine consistis of is NOT mentioned. If you think about it whoever he was speaking to would know because they would have know who and what was spoken, so basically, "what those guys said were lies." However, somone took t upon themsleves to ADD thier own agenda and make a false witness against the INSTRUCTIONS OF YAHWEH. If this was the original intent, it would have been in the original, the fact that someone forged it in shows deception is at hand, be cautious. Just like in the garden, when satan basically said, you may disobey Yahweh and everything will be rainbows and unicorns! LIES. Dont take my word for it "study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth,"and "prove all things hold fast that which is righteous."
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
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#18
Well holiness is a fulfillment of God's truth but let it all be done in love for without love we are nothing
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#19
. You are not defining the law of Moses accurately in terms of what was happening at the time, you are understanding in terms of what is happening in 2013.

If you include all law, including the ten commandments, in the "law of Moses" you are saying that God made a mistake when God gave these laws, that those commandments were not a law of love, and that is not so.
RT: Thanks for your comment. I am not including anything............I am not defining anything.......I am simply quoting what is said in Acts 15.........

Point to make: Any reasonable reading of the OP will reveal that the intent of the OP had nothing to do with lessening or increasing the importance of teaching the Law of Moses or any such.......all one has to do is read the closing comments (which are mine - and not Scripture) to see WHAT my intent was.......Thank all of you for your comments........God bless.

REPOST OF CLOSING COMMENTS FROM OP: "[I write all this to say that we should not expect ourselves or others to have “perfect understanding,” or to walk the perfect Christ like walk, but rather to know that we are human, and as such, we will at times falter, stumble, argue, speak sharply towards one another, and in all of this, we will have to seek forgiveness from God and from our brothers and sisters in Christ. If those who “walked shoulder to shoulder” with Jesus Christ were mere mortals, and subject to all that I have stated, how can we expect ourselves or others to rise above (the Apostles) them? What we can expect is to love one another as He loved us………..and, if we do this, I think we will do well. God bless…………..]
 
Jul 25, 2013
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#20
Acts 15:24

Now you will se these translations have a VERY DIFFERENT READING

New International Version

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

New Living Translation
"We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!


English Standard Version
Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,

New American Standard Bible
"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,


King James Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Because we have heard that some without our authorization went out from us and troubled you with their words and unsettled your hearts,

International Standard Version
We have heard that some men, coming from us without instructions from us, have said things to trouble you and have unsettled you.


NET Bible
Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“We hear that men among us went out and have alarmed you with words and have subverted your souls, as they were saying, 'Be circumcised and keep The Law', which we have not commanded them.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation
We have heard that some individuals who came from us have confused you with statements that disturb you. We did not authorize these men [to speak].


Jubilee Bible 2000
forasmuch as we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law, to whom we gave no such commandment,

King James 2000 Bible
Since we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

American King James Version
For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


American Standard Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;


Douay-Rheims Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment:


Darby Bible Translation
Inasmuch as we have heard that some who went out from amongst us have troubled you by words, upsetting your souls, saying that ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no commandment;


English Revised Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;


Webster's Bible Translation
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain who went out from us, have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment:


Weymouth New Testament
As we have been informed that certain persons who have gone out from among us have disturbed you by their teaching and have unsettled your minds, without having received any such instructions from us;


World English Bible
Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law,' to whom we gave no commandment;

Young's Literal Translation
seeing we have heard that certain having gone forth from us did trouble you with words, subverting your souls, saying to be circumcised and to keep the law, to whom we did give no charge,



Why is it that some say "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law" and some do not say this at all?

Well the Nestle-Aland greek NT, the United Bible Societies, and the oldest Manuscripts these words "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law" are not included.

In context, Acts 15:24, "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you, and
unsettled; brought confusion to, your minds through statements which are not authorized by us", they are saying some people taught a doctrine that the Apostles DID NOT AUTHORIZE, however in the original what that doctrine consistis of is NOT mentioned. If you think about it whoever he was speaking to would know because they would have know who and what was spoken, so basically, "what those guys said were lies." However, somone took t upon themsleves to ADD thier own agenda and make a false witness against the INSTRUCTIONS OF YAHWEH. If this was the original intent, it would have been in the original, the fact that someone forged it in shows deception is at hand, be cautious. Just like in the garden, when satan basically said, you may disobey Yahweh and everything will be rainbows and unicorns! LIES. Dont take my word for it "study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth,"and "prove all things hold fast that which is righteous."

You are slick, but not slick enough: I took the United Bible Society as a first choice to reprove what you said and you were wrong in your saying, [However, somone took t upon themsleves to ADD thier own agenda and make a false witness against the INSTRUCTIONS OF YAHWEH. If this was the original intent, it would have been in the original, the fact that someone forged it in shows deception is at hand, be cautious.]/QUOTE

However, if you would of taken the time to read, (ACTS 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.),....

you would of understood why some Bibles record the AGENDA that you claim [
what that doctrine consistis of is NOT mentioned]/QUOTE, which is such a line of deceit. The dispute was exactly for that reason: trying to force Moses LAWS DOWN THE THROATS OF NEW BELIEVING GENTILES, just as it says in Acts 15:1.

Now, you want to change your story because the truth is out?