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Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ! Or, There! Do not believe it.
Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 Therefore if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert! Do not go out. Behold, He is in the secret rooms! Do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes out of the east and shines even to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered.
Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.
Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 Therefore if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert! Do not go out. Behold, He is in the secret rooms! Do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes out of the east and shines even to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered.
Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.
P
Imagine a doctrine that hates a song about the return of Jesus..
Well he is coming. And I love his coming,and pray to be worthy as Directed by the King Jesus.
I will enjoy the promise of God.
"..........I go and prepare a place for you in heaven,that where I am you may be also..."
I personally reject the doctrine of men's minds that would disenfranchise the promise of God,in favor of some mental gymnastics that rejects the promise of the business God has with his body in heaven.
[video=youtube;C1M6BlZyieo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1M6BlZyieo[/video]
Well he is coming. And I love his coming,and pray to be worthy as Directed by the King Jesus.
I will enjoy the promise of God.
"..........I go and prepare a place for you in heaven,that where I am you may be also..."
I personally reject the doctrine of men's minds that would disenfranchise the promise of God,in favor of some mental gymnastics that rejects the promise of the business God has with his body in heaven.
[video=youtube;C1M6BlZyieo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1M6BlZyieo[/video]
If one goes back to the OT and studies about the "day of the Lord" there, it should be unmistakable to you that it occurs on the very last day of this world and not at any other time before that.
If that Bible evidence conflicts with a Pre-trib Rapture some want to hold to, well, sorry about that, it won't change what God's Word shows on the matter.
If that Bible evidence conflicts with a Pre-trib Rapture some want to hold to, well, sorry about that, it won't change what God's Word shows on the matter.
Just so others know, the "day of Christ" phrase by Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 means the "day of the Lord".
2 Thess 2:1-2
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV
The KJV translators added that phrase "of Christ". The Greek word 'Christos' for Christ is not in the NT Greek manuscripts there. It's instead the Greek word 'kurios' which means 'lord'. Easy to look up in your Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (no. 2962).
2 Thess 2:1-2
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV
The KJV translators added that phrase "of Christ". The Greek word 'Christos' for Christ is not in the NT Greek manuscripts there. It's instead the Greek word 'kurios' which means 'lord'. Easy to look up in your Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (no. 2962).
Compare the Greek of 2 Thess.2:2 "day of Christ" with this one:
Phil 1:10
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
KJV
In this verse per the Greek, "of Christ" is the word 'Christou' which is truly a direct translation to Christ. The "of Christ" in 2 Thess.2:2 is not, but instead was added by the KJV translators.
But that difference still does not change the meaning of what 'day' both Scriptures point to, i.e., the "day of the Lord" timing which is the final day of this world when Christ Jesus comes to gather His Church and pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked at the same time, ending this present world.
Phil 1:10
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
KJV
In this verse per the Greek, "of Christ" is the word 'Christou' which is truly a direct translation to Christ. The "of Christ" in 2 Thess.2:2 is not, but instead was added by the KJV translators.
But that difference still does not change the meaning of what 'day' both Scriptures point to, i.e., the "day of the Lord" timing which is the final day of this world when Christ Jesus comes to gather His Church and pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked at the same time, ending this present world.
I dont get the big deal over the word Lord or Christ there.
The NT shows same numbers for the words of LORD and Lord here
Mat 22:44 The LORD [SUP]G2962[/SUP] said unto my Lord [SUP]G2962[/SUP] , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
That is a quote from the OT. But the same scripture shows two different numbers used for the words LORD and Lord there.
Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [SUP]H3068[/SUP] said unto my Lord [SUP]H113[/SUP], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
If Jesus was referencing the OT he would have said of David
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, [SUP]H113[/SUP] how is he his son?
Makes sense, Jesus being the Son of God and it was God who made Jesus both Lord [SUP]H113[/SUP] and Christ. [SUP]G5547[/SUP]
As they tell us
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [SUP]G2962[/SUP]and Christ. [SUP]G5547[/SUP]
But I dont see how the day of Christ or the Lord would make much of a difference. Execpt if Lord to one means Father verses Son maybe? I am not following the logic
The NT shows same numbers for the words of LORD and Lord here
Mat 22:44 The LORD [SUP]G2962[/SUP] said unto my Lord [SUP]G2962[/SUP] , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
That is a quote from the OT. But the same scripture shows two different numbers used for the words LORD and Lord there.
Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [SUP]H3068[/SUP] said unto my Lord [SUP]H113[/SUP], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
If Jesus was referencing the OT he would have said of David
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, [SUP]H113[/SUP] how is he his son?
Makes sense, Jesus being the Son of God and it was God who made Jesus both Lord [SUP]H113[/SUP] and Christ. [SUP]G5547[/SUP]
As they tell us
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [SUP]G2962[/SUP]and Christ. [SUP]G5547[/SUP]
But I dont see how the day of Christ or the Lord would make much of a difference. Execpt if Lord to one means Father verses Son maybe? I am not following the logic
1 Thessalonians 2:1-3, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
In verse 1, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is a reference to the Second Advent, which is after the Tribulation. The second half of verse 1 which talks about "our gathering together unto him" is speaking of the Church Age Rapture. The comma in verse 1 separates the Rapture and the Second Advent. Paul has them listed backwards like in Psalms 89 where verses 19 through 37 are verses dealing with the Second Advent, while verses 37 through 45 deal with the First Advent.
Verse 2 shows us that someone has been teaching false doctrine concerning the subject at hand. Someone has been telling them that the first resurrection was spiritual and they have missed it. Some of those that taught this were Alexander and Hymenaeus in 1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17.
In verse 1, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is a reference to the Second Advent, which is after the Tribulation. The second half of verse 1 which talks about "our gathering together unto him" is speaking of the Church Age Rapture. The comma in verse 1 separates the Rapture and the Second Advent. Paul has them listed backwards like in Psalms 89 where verses 19 through 37 are verses dealing with the Second Advent, while verses 37 through 45 deal with the First Advent.
Verse 2 shows us that someone has been teaching false doctrine concerning the subject at hand. Someone has been telling them that the first resurrection was spiritual and they have missed it. Some of those that taught this were Alexander and Hymenaeus in 1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17.
The "day of Christ" in all... NT cases is about the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord".
That 'day' per 2 Pet.3 is also put for the "thousand years" Millennium of Rev.20. When Jesus comes, that BEGINS it, and it becomes His day when He will reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" with His elect. So no matter how you look at it as time reference, it's still about the ending of the tribulation, and not some secret rapture prior to the tribulation.
That 'day' per 2 Pet.3 is also put for the "thousand years" Millennium of Rev.20. When Jesus comes, that BEGINS it, and it becomes His day when He will reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" with His elect. So no matter how you look at it as time reference, it's still about the ending of the tribulation, and not some secret rapture prior to the tribulation.
This is something people are most misguided about, Jesus can not show up at any given moment. Prophecy is called prophecy for a reason. All things has to be fulfilled before he can return. Just like Jesus came and fulfilled what was written of him, so do all things which is written must be fulfilled before the coming of Christ. As Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 24 chapter:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So if you can read, you will see that Jesus can and will return only after the Great Tribulation, not before!!!!
Hello Jayoish,
What people are most misguided about, is that they don't make a distinction between the Lord's appearing to gather the church from the Lord's return to end the age, which are two separate events and which do not take place at the same time.
The gathering of the church:
The Lord descends from heaven and the dead are resurrected first, followed by the living believers being transformed into their immortal, glorified bodies and being caught up to meet Lord in the air, where according to the promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord takes us back to the Father's, that where He is, we may be also. This event takes place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.
The end of the age:
Shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out (see Jesus interjection in Rev.16:15), the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. This event is depicted by the signs leading up to Mt.24:29-31 and a more detailed account is found in Rev.19:11-21.
The Lord said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Since the wrath of God -- that believer's and all people deserve -- has already been poured out on Christ, then God's wrath has been satisfied for those who are having faith in him. Therefore, as the scripture states, Christ "rescues us from the coming wrath" (1 Thes.1:10) and "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes.5:9).
The Lord's appearing to gather believer's from the earth is referred to as "the blessed hope." Regarding this, Paul, after giving a detailed account of the resurrection and catching away said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That said, what is more of a blessed hope, that the Lord is going to remove the church prior to his wrath or that the church is going to be put through his wrath? And if the latter, why, since Christ already satisfied the wrath that we deserve? Is there no difference between the faithful and the unfaithful? Also, can we comfort each other knowing that the believer is not going to suffer wrath because Christ suffered it for us or is there more comfort knowing that we are going to be put through God's wrath? The bottom line is, if the gathering of the church is synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which would be no blessed hope and no comfort.
Since Jesus is the only One to resurrect from the dead in that immortal, glorified body, he being the first fruits, then one would have to ask, "who are those following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, bright and clean?" The following scriptures demonstrate who they are:
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Called, Chosen and Faithful Followers:
The scripture above is in reference to Rev.19:11-21 when the Lord descends from heaven to end the age. Notice that those who will be with him are his "called, chosen and faithful followers." For those who would say that this group is referring to angels, this designation would be improper for them, for angels are not called nor chosen. Therefore this designation is in reference to redeemed believer's.
The Armies Riding on White Horses:
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Who are these that are dressed in fine linen, white and clean riding on white horses?
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Rev.19:6-8)
The above is a scene taking place in heaven prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Notice that it is the "Bride" who is receiving the fine linen, bright and clean and that at the wedding of the Lamb. Scripture makes clear that, it is the church who is the Bride of Christ, for regarding this Paul said:
"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." (2 Cor.11:2)
Since the church is Christ's bride and she is receiving her white linen, bright and clean at the wedding in heaven and those riding on white horses following Christ out of heaven are wearing white linen, bright and clean, then those on the white horses can be none other that the individuals that make up the church who will have been resurrected prior God's wrath being poured out.
The Resurrection of Rev.20:4-6:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Many expositors make the error of proclaiming that since this is referred to as the "first resurrection" that all resurrections must take place at Rev.20:4-6, including the churches. The problem with this is that, for the church to be gathered here, it would again put the Church through the entire wrath of God and that because this resurrection takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
Another problem that many do not take into consideration is that, unlike 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, which demonstrates that there is going to be both a resurrection of the dead and the transformation of living believers, this event here in Rev.20:6 refers only to a resurrection taking place and that involving only the great tribulation saints. This is obvious because those who are resurrected here are said to "have not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands." This would demonstrate that this resurrected group is not made up of believer's from the entire church period, but are those who will have been killed during that last 3 1/2 which is during the time of the beasts reign. These are those same saints who are mentioned in Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:5-7 of whom the beast is given authority over them for a time, times and a half a time, also mentioned as forty-two months (3 1/2 years).
The conclusion to all of this is that, all that you have posted above regarding Mt.24, is in reference only to the leading up of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. And those returning with him riding on white horses will be the church wearing their fine linen, bright and clean, who will have been resurrected and caught up at least seven years prior to the event of the Lord's return to end the age as described here in Mt.24. Therefore, since there are no signs that must take place prior to believer's being gathered by the Lord, then He indeed can show up at any moment.
What people are most misguided about, is that they don't make a distinction between the Lord's appearing to gather the church from the Lord's return to end the age, which are two separate events and which do not take place at the same time.
The gathering of the church:
The Lord descends from heaven and the dead are resurrected first, followed by the living believers being transformed into their immortal, glorified bodies and being caught up to meet Lord in the air, where according to the promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord takes us back to the Father's, that where He is, we may be also. This event takes place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.
The end of the age:
Shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out (see Jesus interjection in Rev.16:15), the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. This event is depicted by the signs leading up to Mt.24:29-31 and a more detailed account is found in Rev.19:11-21.
The Lord said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Since the wrath of God -- that believer's and all people deserve -- has already been poured out on Christ, then God's wrath has been satisfied for those who are having faith in him. Therefore, as the scripture states, Christ "rescues us from the coming wrath" (1 Thes.1:10) and "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes.5:9).
The Lord's appearing to gather believer's from the earth is referred to as "the blessed hope." Regarding this, Paul, after giving a detailed account of the resurrection and catching away said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That said, what is more of a blessed hope, that the Lord is going to remove the church prior to his wrath or that the church is going to be put through his wrath? And if the latter, why, since Christ already satisfied the wrath that we deserve? Is there no difference between the faithful and the unfaithful? Also, can we comfort each other knowing that the believer is not going to suffer wrath because Christ suffered it for us or is there more comfort knowing that we are going to be put through God's wrath? The bottom line is, if the gathering of the church is synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which would be no blessed hope and no comfort.
Since Jesus is the only One to resurrect from the dead in that immortal, glorified body, he being the first fruits, then one would have to ask, "who are those following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, bright and clean?" The following scriptures demonstrate who they are:
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Called, Chosen and Faithful Followers:
The scripture above is in reference to Rev.19:11-21 when the Lord descends from heaven to end the age. Notice that those who will be with him are his "called, chosen and faithful followers." For those who would say that this group is referring to angels, this designation would be improper for them, for angels are not called nor chosen. Therefore this designation is in reference to redeemed believer's.
The Armies Riding on White Horses:
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Who are these that are dressed in fine linen, white and clean riding on white horses?
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Rev.19:6-8)
The above is a scene taking place in heaven prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Notice that it is the "Bride" who is receiving the fine linen, bright and clean and that at the wedding of the Lamb. Scripture makes clear that, it is the church who is the Bride of Christ, for regarding this Paul said:
"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." (2 Cor.11:2)
Since the church is Christ's bride and she is receiving her white linen, bright and clean at the wedding in heaven and those riding on white horses following Christ out of heaven are wearing white linen, bright and clean, then those on the white horses can be none other that the individuals that make up the church who will have been resurrected prior God's wrath being poured out.
The Resurrection of Rev.20:4-6:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Many expositors make the error of proclaiming that since this is referred to as the "first resurrection" that all resurrections must take place at Rev.20:4-6, including the churches. The problem with this is that, for the church to be gathered here, it would again put the Church through the entire wrath of God and that because this resurrection takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
Another problem that many do not take into consideration is that, unlike 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, which demonstrates that there is going to be both a resurrection of the dead and the transformation of living believers, this event here in Rev.20:6 refers only to a resurrection taking place and that involving only the great tribulation saints. This is obvious because those who are resurrected here are said to "have not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands." This would demonstrate that this resurrected group is not made up of believer's from the entire church period, but are those who will have been killed during that last 3 1/2 which is during the time of the beasts reign. These are those same saints who are mentioned in Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:5-7 of whom the beast is given authority over them for a time, times and a half a time, also mentioned as forty-two months (3 1/2 years).
The conclusion to all of this is that, all that you have posted above regarding Mt.24, is in reference only to the leading up of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. And those returning with him riding on white horses will be the church wearing their fine linen, bright and clean, who will have been resurrected and caught up at least seven years prior to the event of the Lord's return to end the age as described here in Mt.24. Therefore, since there are no signs that must take place prior to believer's being gathered by the Lord, then He indeed can show up at any moment.
Hello, Ahwatukee, I am interested and would love to take this in stages, you are actually saying that there should be 2 coming of the Lord, not one. So let's address them in stages: The gathering of the church first.
Now I don't agree that this is the gathering of the church, but it is when he return for the first resurrection to begin his 1,000 years reign of peace. I agree with you, I Thessalonian 4:15-17 did say he will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ shall rise first
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is evidence by scripture, as should all things, not an assumption be made of certain things. I Thessalonian 5:21 states to prove all things-- 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
However, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that the Lord takes us back to the Father. It say that he will come again, which proves one coming.... did not say I will come again twice....and receive you unto him that where he is, you shall be also. Now the question to ask and needs to be answered by scriptural proof is where is he going to be?
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Now I am asking you to prove to me through scripture that where he is going to be is in heaven. Because I have scriptures which states you could not go there.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them,
I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
I also have scripture to prove where Jesus is going to be after he returns. First of all the angel told the disciples where and how Jesus would return, in the same manner he left. Acts 1:9-12
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey
Therefore this is a clue that he will return back to the same mount of Olive in which he descended from. As revealed in Zechariah the 14 chapter, talking about the day of the Lord which is what his return is called and that he will return to the Mount of Olive, as the Angel predicted.
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
So, doesn't sound like he is going to go back to heaven, because it states here that he is going to land on the Mount of Olive and be king over the earth.
Now let me tell you what is the big misperception of people the reason you and others thinks there is two coming of Christ. Well because immediately after the great tribulation, when Jesus returns, he is going to take this earth by force in what is called the battle of Armageddon as described above in Zechariah 14:2-3.
Once he has taken this earth by force then he will reign here a 1000 years in peace. In which, means the Devil has to be dealt with in order for it to be peace and no evil. So Revelation 20:1-3 tells you that an angel will bound him for 1000 years.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now during Jesus 1000 years reign, he would have resurrected all the dead who died obeying his commandments, and those who were still alive when he return changed too, to be GODs. However, there are still flesh and blood people living on the earth. Those who were not destroyed and killed during the great tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. Those people will have to worship Jesus and obey him during this period, as told in Zechariah 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Also evidence in Revelation 20:4-6 about Jesus return being first resurrection of those ready when he come and all others have to wait for the white throne Judgement which comes after the 1000 year reign.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now after the 1000 years Satan will be let loose for a short while to deceive again which he will do as according to Revelation 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
After this come the white throne Judgement where all dead and alive who have not been changed yet, has to stand before judgement and see if they are found to be worthy of the Tree of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is where the Son finally gives the Kingdom to the Father who in return as stated in Revelation 21 chapter bring down his kingdom -- New Jerusalem where He too will dwell with his people and be their GOD. Revelation 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Now, I ask you to provide me scriptural back up of your claim of where Jesus is going to be or go when he return because John 14:1-3 doesn't say where that is.
Shalom,
Jayoish
Now I don't agree that this is the gathering of the church, but it is when he return for the first resurrection to begin his 1,000 years reign of peace. I agree with you, I Thessalonian 4:15-17 did say he will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ shall rise first
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is evidence by scripture, as should all things, not an assumption be made of certain things. I Thessalonian 5:21 states to prove all things-- 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
However, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that the Lord takes us back to the Father. It say that he will come again, which proves one coming.... did not say I will come again twice....and receive you unto him that where he is, you shall be also. Now the question to ask and needs to be answered by scriptural proof is where is he going to be?
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Now I am asking you to prove to me through scripture that where he is going to be is in heaven. Because I have scriptures which states you could not go there.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them,
I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
I also have scripture to prove where Jesus is going to be after he returns. First of all the angel told the disciples where and how Jesus would return, in the same manner he left. Acts 1:9-12
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey
Therefore this is a clue that he will return back to the same mount of Olive in which he descended from. As revealed in Zechariah the 14 chapter, talking about the day of the Lord which is what his return is called and that he will return to the Mount of Olive, as the Angel predicted.
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
So, doesn't sound like he is going to go back to heaven, because it states here that he is going to land on the Mount of Olive and be king over the earth.
Now let me tell you what is the big misperception of people the reason you and others thinks there is two coming of Christ. Well because immediately after the great tribulation, when Jesus returns, he is going to take this earth by force in what is called the battle of Armageddon as described above in Zechariah 14:2-3.
Once he has taken this earth by force then he will reign here a 1000 years in peace. In which, means the Devil has to be dealt with in order for it to be peace and no evil. So Revelation 20:1-3 tells you that an angel will bound him for 1000 years.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now during Jesus 1000 years reign, he would have resurrected all the dead who died obeying his commandments, and those who were still alive when he return changed too, to be GODs. However, there are still flesh and blood people living on the earth. Those who were not destroyed and killed during the great tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. Those people will have to worship Jesus and obey him during this period, as told in Zechariah 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Also evidence in Revelation 20:4-6 about Jesus return being first resurrection of those ready when he come and all others have to wait for the white throne Judgement which comes after the 1000 year reign.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now after the 1000 years Satan will be let loose for a short while to deceive again which he will do as according to Revelation 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
After this come the white throne Judgement where all dead and alive who have not been changed yet, has to stand before judgement and see if they are found to be worthy of the Tree of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is where the Son finally gives the Kingdom to the Father who in return as stated in Revelation 21 chapter bring down his kingdom -- New Jerusalem where He too will dwell with his people and be their GOD. Revelation 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Now, I ask you to provide me scriptural back up of your claim of where Jesus is going to be or go when he return because John 14:1-3 doesn't say where that is.
Shalom,
Jayoish
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When The Lord descends from heaven, he resurrects those who have died in him and the living are changed and therefore, it should not be looked at as the Lord coming twice. When he comes to gather the church, it is only in the air that we meet him, as he does not descend to the earth. The second coming on the other hand, is when the Lord descends from heaven to end the age, where the beast and false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and all of the kings, the generals, their armies and all the people who will have been brought there by the angels (one taken) will be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds from the Lords mouth, which is symbolic for sword of the Spirit aka the word of God (Rev.19:11-21). That said, one is the Lord gathering us to meet him in the air and the other is when he literally returns to the earth to bring an end to the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Here is the scripture in question:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
* My Father's house has many rooms
* I go and prepare a place for you
* I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am
So as you can see, Jesus tells his disciples and all believer's, that in his Father's house are many rooms, which could only be referring to heaven, and that he is going to prepare a place for us in the Father's house. Then he says that he will come back to take us to be with him, that were he is we may be also. The location of the Father's house can be located no where else but in heaven and therefore, that is where Jesus will be taking us when he comes back for us, that is, to the Father's house. If there was any doubt about where the Father's house is, scripture states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where he ever makes intercession for all believers. Again, when Jesus ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father, that would most definitely be heaven.
In the scripture above, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law, who didn't believe in him, which is why he said, "Where I go, you cannot come." They couldn't go where Jesus was going because, as he said, they were going to die in their sins and therefore, they would not be going to heaven where he was going. Therefore, Jesus is not addressing believers here, but unbelievers. When an unbeliever dies in their sins, they are taken to Hades, which is in the heart of the earth, where like the rich man, will experience torment in flame until they are resurrected out to stand before God at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15) Now on the other hand, regarding believer's Jesus said:
"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
Where do you think Jesus is going before he returns. Rev.19:11-21 demonstrates without a doubt that Jesus will be returning from heaven! Not only does it stated that, but then it says that the armies in heaven will be following him out of heaven. As I stated in the previous post, the error comes from not recognizing that that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age are two separate events. I've already shown you that the it can only be the church that is riding on white horses who are following Christ out of heaven and that they are referred to as the called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev.17:14 and 19:14).
As I stated the previous post, if you have the church being resurrected at the beginning of the Lord's 1000 year reign, you put believers through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God and which Jesus rescues us from (1 Thes.1:10) and which we are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.5:9). The church cannot go through the wrath of God and that because Jesus already suffered all wrath on our behalf. Those who are resurrected when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, are only the great tribulation saints.
As I stated previously, Rev.20:4-6 is only a resurrection and there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. Also, I pointed out that, the people mentioned as being resurrected are those who will have been killed because they refuse to worship the beast, his image and refuse to receive his mark. This would put that group as being killed during that last 3 1/2 years during the beast's reign. The great tribulation saints are the only one's in view here in Rev.20:4-6 as being resurrected, where the church will have been resurrect prior to God's wrath being poured out. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, are the unrighteous dead, those who will have died in their sins throughout all human history.
Jayoish,
I know that I am repeating this, but it is a simple matter of determining from the scripture where the Father's house is, which is where Jesus said that he was going to:
* In My Father’s house are many rooms
* If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there (to the Father's house) to prepare a place for you?
* If I go and prepare a place for you (at the Father's house), I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also (at the Father's house).
That place that Jesus went to prepare a place for all believers is in the Father's house. This should be pretty simple and straight forward to understand.
Here is the scripture in question:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
* My Father's house has many rooms
* I go and prepare a place for you
* I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am
So as you can see, Jesus tells his disciples and all believer's, that in his Father's house are many rooms, which could only be referring to heaven, and that he is going to prepare a place for us in the Father's house. Then he says that he will come back to take us to be with him, that were he is we may be also. The location of the Father's house can be located no where else but in heaven and therefore, that is where Jesus will be taking us when he comes back for us, that is, to the Father's house. If there was any doubt about where the Father's house is, scripture states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where he ever makes intercession for all believers. Again, when Jesus ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father, that would most definitely be heaven.
In the scripture above, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law, who didn't believe in him, which is why he said, "Where I go, you cannot come." They couldn't go where Jesus was going because, as he said, they were going to die in their sins and therefore, they would not be going to heaven where he was going. Therefore, Jesus is not addressing believers here, but unbelievers. When an unbeliever dies in their sins, they are taken to Hades, which is in the heart of the earth, where like the rich man, will experience torment in flame until they are resurrected out to stand before God at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15) Now on the other hand, regarding believer's Jesus said:
"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
Where do you think Jesus is going before he returns. Rev.19:11-21 demonstrates without a doubt that Jesus will be returning from heaven! Not only does it stated that, but then it says that the armies in heaven will be following him out of heaven. As I stated in the previous post, the error comes from not recognizing that that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age are two separate events. I've already shown you that the it can only be the church that is riding on white horses who are following Christ out of heaven and that they are referred to as the called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev.17:14 and 19:14).
As I stated the previous post, if you have the church being resurrected at the beginning of the Lord's 1000 year reign, you put believers through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God and which Jesus rescues us from (1 Thes.1:10) and which we are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.5:9). The church cannot go through the wrath of God and that because Jesus already suffered all wrath on our behalf. Those who are resurrected when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, are only the great tribulation saints.
As I stated previously, Rev.20:4-6 is only a resurrection and there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. Also, I pointed out that, the people mentioned as being resurrected are those who will have been killed because they refuse to worship the beast, his image and refuse to receive his mark. This would put that group as being killed during that last 3 1/2 years during the beast's reign. The great tribulation saints are the only one's in view here in Rev.20:4-6 as being resurrected, where the church will have been resurrect prior to God's wrath being poured out. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, are the unrighteous dead, those who will have died in their sins throughout all human history.
Jayoish,
I know that I am repeating this, but it is a simple matter of determining from the scripture where the Father's house is, which is where Jesus said that he was going to:
* In My Father’s house are many rooms
* If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there (to the Father's house) to prepare a place for you?
* If I go and prepare a place for you (at the Father's house), I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also (at the Father's house).
That place that Jesus went to prepare a place for all believers is in the Father's house. This should be pretty simple and straight forward to understand.