The Day of The Lord

Atwood · Mar 5, 2016

IMHO:
The book on The Day of the LORD (The Day of YHWH) par excellence is Zephaniah. Do a search with a concordance program to learn that this phrase is much about destructive judgment (like the Tribulation). I think much misinterpretation has resulted from persons imagining that the turn refers to the Rapture or the 2nd Coming per se.

Atwood · Mar 5, 2016

Get it into thy skull: THE DAY OF THE LORD is not the rapture. I quote the ASV (1901) where in the OT "the day of THE LORD" KJV is rendered "the day of Jehovah."

Is. 13:6 Wail ye; for the day of Jehovah is at hand; as destruction from 3the Almighty shall it come.

Is. 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Ezek. 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the 2gaps, neither built up the wall for the house of Israel, to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

Ezek. 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of Jehovah is near; it shall be a day of clouds, a time of the nations.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of Jehovah is at hand, and as destruction from 12the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:11 And Jehovah uttereth his voice before his army; for his camp is very great; for he is strong that executeth his word; for the day of Jehovah is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah? It is darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obad. 15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy 10dealing shall return upon thine own head.

Zeph. 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is at hand: for Jehovah hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath consecrated his guests.

Zeph. 1:14 The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man crieth there bitterly.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

Atwood said:

Greetings Atwood! Here is the scripture in question:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

When has the above ever happened?

Regarding this, Isaiah says the same:

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir"

There is only one period of time known as "day of the Lord" prophesied by both OT prophets and the NT apostles. It will be a time of unprecedented wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The purpose of this time of wrath will be for God to pour out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world, the haughty, the proud, the arrogant with the results being the decimation of the population of the earth and dismantling of all human governments in preparation for the Lord to establish his millennial kingdom.

This time of wrath is what the majority of the book of Revelation is dedicated to, also know as "what must take place later." In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, Jesus also refers to the day of the Lord as "the hour of trial" which is neither a day nor an hour in length, but will last for seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years known as the great tribulation, which will be the worst time in the history of the earth.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

The resurrection and catching away of the church, is what initiates THE DAY OF THE LORD. Here is the scripture:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

After Paul gives a detail account of the resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living, he then says the following:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. "

Therefore grammatically speaking, the "times and dates" that Paul is referring to would have to refer back to what he was previously speaking about, which would have to be the dates and times of the resurrection and catching and the living believers being changed. Then in Rev.5:2, Paul refers to that event as THE DAY OF THE LORD, which will come like a thief in the night. Once the resurrection and the changing of the living takes place, it is then followed by that antichrist making his seven year covenant, which is the beginning of God's wrath and which will continue throughout the entire seven year period via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The rider on the white horse is represented by the first seal being opened, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21 which is representing the Lord.

Jayoish · Mar 5, 2016

disagree with this? Did not the angel tell the disciple that Jesus will return in the same manner as he left? Did he not leave and ascend from the mount of Olive? Is this what you dispute? Do you not agree that this means he must returns back to the Mount of Olive? I know you state it is for the gathering of his church -- which we disagree on what it is---but we can both agree that his disciples are part of his church in which he is returning for. And if that is the case then, according to the angel he will do so in the same manner he left them. Which was ascending from the mount of olive. Now he must descend back down to the mount of olive which I provided you scripture to. Is this what you where rejected? Zechariah 14:4-5.

I am trying to get an understanding of what you are rejecting and I like to be thorough and that is all I asking from you. There is too many loop holes in your account of what is going to happen and a lack of scriptures to support it.

Zechariah 14:4 show that he is going to descend to the mount of olive on the day of his return and Zechariah 14:5 states that all the saints will be with him. Because they met him in the air. Is this the part your reject? That when Jesus descend and they ascend and they meet in the air, which is on the earth, even thou you said it would not be considered a coming since they are only going to meet in the air. But still Ahwatukee that is the earth, are you saying that the air plane which flies in the air leaves earth every time they take passengers from one city to another city or one country to another? Please help me to understand what you are saying? Because to me meeting in the air is still on this earth and Jesus still have descended from heaven to here as the angel said he would come in like manner and since that part is right, then it leads me to believe that he will do the rest and land back on the mount of Olive, as they said. which Zechariah 14:4 states and since he met the saints in the air, then that would explain why they are with him, as Zechariah 14:5 states. Therefore, Zechariah 14:9 must be right too, it states that he will be King over all the earth and in that day there will be one LORD. He is going to reign and rule over the earth. Is this the part that you rejected? Because I did not say it, the Bible did. Or may it was Revelation 21 where the Father kingdom is going to come down to men and he will be their GOD?

Apparently there is a lack of communication or some miscommunication going on and it needs to be cleared up. I am not understanding fully what you are coming to the conclusion you have provided and I have provided many scripture of the Bible account of Jesus return, but you are not getting it. I am seeing some lack of scriptures to explain some of what you are saying and I am asking for more clarity. You give me scriptures showing that Jesus will be returning from heaven, but not for where he goes after the descend into earth atmosphere.

Ahwatukee said:

Ahwatukee these comments is where you are wrong. I don't have the church being resurrected at the beginning of the Lord's 1000 year reign, and neither am I putting them in the wrath. But the Bible itself show the church being resurrected at the beginning of the lord's 1000 year reign. Because Jesus is not going to return until after the tribulation, as he stated. He is not going to rapture his people off, but instead he has provided a place of safety for his people. And he tells them that in the scripture that they need to watch for the sign of the tribulation and when they see these sign to run for the place of safety. Mathew 24:15-31, Jesus tells his disciples what these signs are to look for and what to do when the last one show up which is the abomination desolation. He tells them to flee in to the mountains. It doesn't say that he will rapture them off. you are right it is no intended for GOD people to go through the Great Tribulation, but he warns them to run for the place of safety, he did not say anywhere that he will return early and get you. Matthew 16-24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

And in Revelation 12:1-6 gives his people a warning and tells them where to flee, as well:

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

God is going to take care of his people but they have to hear his voice and do what he say do because he is only coming back once and it is after the tribulation. However, He is not going to forsake them, but we must take action ourselves. This is just like when he delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt. As you know the story goes GOD did 11 plagues upon Egypt, one each time he sent Moses to Pharaoh and he refuse to let his people go. The first 10 plagues were done to Egyptians only and Qhim and had faith, then you smeared the blood and was saved! Otherwise, with this last plague, it didn't matter if you were GOD's people or not, if you did not hearken to his word, they would have died. Well, deliverance of the Great Tribulation is the same, you must do what GOD say and run for the place of safety that he will have prepared for to keep you from what he called the hour of temptation. Heed the warning people and stop thinking there is going to be a rapture, he did not do it for Israel in Egypt and he is not going to do it that way for you!!!

To prove to you that the same coming in which I Thessalonian 4:16-17 is speaking on is immediately after the Great Tribulation and the same as speak of in Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21. God people would have already been in the place of safety, except those who are tried during tribulation and was wash clean and came out of it purified. When Jesus returns his saints will be changed and they will fight along side him, so the tribulation will be ending and he will be taking the earth by force as according to Revelation 19.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note: (Jesus said this will happen immediately after the tribulation) Question? If he already gather his elect (church, his saints) How is he gathering them again? Are you calling Jesus a lie of when he will gather them? If you look at Jesus's account to his disciple of the sign of his coming you will know that he doesn't come and gather his elect until immediately after the tribulation. This is the one and only coming he makes, there will not be a rapture coming!

And above all, two coming of Christ contradicts what Paul states about the coming of Christ. He speaks of only one, but he states that day will not come until the man of sin have been revealed. Well that will be during the Great Tribulation, when the Man of sin will be revealed. Paul said Christ won't return until after that. II Thessalonians 2:1-4:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Note: (The day of Christ means one day...it doesn't say days of Christ! )

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Both Jesus and Paul tells you not to be deceived that false prophets will come and deceive you. one of the most deceits I see going on is that he is going to rapture you off before the Great Tribulation as Jesus states will be immediately after (Matthew 24:29) and deceive you that he will come before the man of sin is revealed which Paul warns you he will not until after the Man of sin has been revealed (II Thessalonian 2:3) which he will be revealed during the Great Tribulation.

Ahwatukee, I have tried to get this through to you, if this doesn't click for you, then I hope that these words will save you once you get caught in the Great Tribulation. I warn you not to take the mark of the beast and not to believe the man of sin who will sin in the holy temple and declare himself GOD. I can only hope my words will come back to your memory and save you. Although you would have been caught in the Great tribulation due to deceit, waiting for a rapture. May GOD have mercy on you and bring you out of it.

Shalom,
Jayoish

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

Hi Jayoish,

First, let's stop with the lengthy posts and focus on one issue so that it is not so confusing. Let us begin with the following:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Please look over the scripture above answer and consider the information contained in it:

1). My Father's house has many rooms

2). If that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

3). I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

First, Jesus says that, "My Father's house has many rooms, literally, dwelling places. Then he says, "If that were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you, which would have to be where he just previously mentioned, which is the Father's house. Then he says, that he will come back and take us to be with him that we may be where he is. Therefore, the scripture is stating that Jesus is going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for believers and will come back again and take us to be where is, which would be to those dwelling place in the Father's house. The Father's can be no where else but heaven. Therefore, when Jesus returns, that is where he will be taking us.

Please address this and only this, as the long posts just complicate things, jumping from issue to issue. As I said in a previous post, you are confusing the gathering of the church with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Resurrection and catching away of the dead and living:

This event is when the Lord will descend from heaven and meet believer's in the air only for the specific purpose of resurrecting the dead in Christ and the changing of the living into their immortal, glorified bodies. Once the whole group is there, then Jesus will take the entire group back to the Father's house where he will have prepared those rooms that he promised his disciples and all believer's in John 14:1-3.

The Second Coming:

This event is where at the end of the last seven years of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out, then Christ, along with the church who will have been gathered prior to God's wrath, will follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and bring the age to an end.

Note: the church cannot be in view as being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God and scripture makes clear that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

If you are referring to Rev.20:4-6 as being where the church is being resurrected at the beginning of the Lord's 1000 year reign, then that would put the church through all of God's wrath. The 1000 year reign of Christ does not begin until after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed. And therefore, to claim that the church is resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years, would indeed put the church through the entire wrath of God. Regarding Rev.20:4-6, as I pointed out in a previous post, this is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints only and does not involve the church. Notice also, that there is only resurrection mentioned and nothing mentioned about the living being changed and caught up. Also, those identified as being resurrected is only pertaining to the great tribulation saints. This fact is clear in that, it states that they would not worship the beast, his image nor would they receive his mark. Another fact is that, no where within the narrative from Rev.4 thru 18 is the church ever mentioned, yet the word church is the only word used to describe believer's throughout chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

Your reference to Mt.24:3-24 in your post, has to do, not with the gathering of the church, but in regards to the events leading up to the end of the age. The church will have been gathered before this even, which is the time during which God's wrath will be poured out. The Lord's mention of the "abomination" in Mt.24:15 puts the time-line as being in the middle of that last seven years (see Dan.9:27).

Regarding the above, the woman who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars, is symbolic for the nation Israel (See Genesis 37:9-10). Here in Rev.12:1 and Mt.24:15-22, it is Israel that is in view and not the church. The reason for her fleeing will be because of the abomination that will be set up in the holy place within the Jewish temple, which takes place in the middle of the seven years according to Dan.9:27.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

Again, if 1 Thes.4:16-17 was to take place after the Great Tribulation and during Mt.24:29-31, then you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer, and therefore, the church must be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath. Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath has been completed. Where the gathering of the church is to remove the dead and living in Christ and to take them back to the Father's house.

Jayoish · Mar 5, 2016

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

I have replied and was thorough and separated this so there will be no confusion, if you are still confusion I feel sorry for you, but I can only say I hope you get it when you get caught up in the Great Tribulation!!!! Not that I want that for you but it is just a fact. You are apparently just not reading or wanting to read what I wrote because I made it very clear.

On the other hand you repeat the same old thing which is what you have been taught, like a recording. You are not able to deviate from just the fact that there are many mansion in your fathers house. But you can not collaborate anything else about your fathers house. I have given you scriptures of Jesus say he is returning for the gathering of his elect, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29) and Paul warning us not to be deceived of the day of the Lord that it will not happen until the man of sin is revealed in which will happen during the tribulation (.II Thessalonian 2:3). Yet you choose to ignore these, as if you did not see them in the posting that because the posting was so long, it was confusion.

As far as I am concern, you choose to ignore and not read these scriptures I sent you and I am not going to continue period with any more posting to you because I don't see a person who really want the truth. A person really seeking for the truth read and research all things. You apparently did not read those two things I just mention or you are rejecting them? You did not even answer the questions I asked trying to clarify and cut down on miscommunication, so that tells me all.

The last thing I will say is the Bible is right, no matter who say what!!!!

Shalom,

Jayoish

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The above is in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The mention of the angels going out and gathering together his elect is not speaking about the gathering of the church. When the Lord returns, according to the parable in Mt.13 about the wheat and the weeds, the angels will go throughout the earth and first collect weeds (Mt.13:30), which is synonymous with the event in Mt.24:30-31. When the angels gather his elect, these will be those who will have made it through the time of God's' wrath alive and these are those that the angels will be collecting. In opposition to this, when the Lord gathers the church, as shown in 1 Thes.4:13-18, the dead will rise first and the living will be changed and caught. Angels do not gather the church at this event, but will be raised and changed into those immortal, glorified bodies where the Lord will take them back to the Father's house. The problem that you continue to come up against is that, you are not making a distinction between the event of the gathering of the church between the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to make these the same event, you will continue to run into trouble.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

In Rev.17:9-17 a new group of people are introduced as the "great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language." Regarding them, the elder asks John the following question:

"These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

John doesn't who they are and the elder gives him the answer:

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The very fact that the elder is introducing them and asking John who they are, demonstrates that this group is not the church, but as the elder stated, they are the saints who will have come out of the great tribulation. Again, this group is not the church, but will be those who become believer's in Christ during that last seven years, during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. Therefore, regarding your question "If he already gathered his elect (church, his saints) how is he gathering them again?" The answer is that, it is this group of great tribulation saints that Jesus' angels will be gathering at the end of the age and not the church. The reason for your confusion is that, you are making the church and the great tribulation saints the same group. But, if you will search Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3, you will only see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" in those first three chapters and will never see the word saints. Then, from Rev.4 onward, you will only see the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" but you will never see the word church. It is the great tribulation saints and not the church that will be on earth during the time of God's wrath. You need to understand that, the great tribulation saints are a completely different group from the church. In the gospels and other books, the words church and saints are used interchangeably, but here in the book of Revelation, God is making an obvious distinction between the church and the great tribulation saints. It is important to understand that they are two different groups in order to avoid the confusion that you are experiencing.

That said, the church is gathered out from the earth prior to God's wrath as shown in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 and the great tribulation saints are shown to be resurrected in Rev.20:4-6. These two separate resurrections both belong to the first resurrection and that because, though they take place at least seven years apart, they take place prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous at the end of the thousand years.

Church = Those believer's in Christ throughout the entire church period who will be ready and watching for the Lord and who will be removed and taken back to the Father's house prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

Great Tribulation Saints = People who become believer's after the church has been removed and will be exposed to God's wrath and the beasts reign, his image and his mark, of whom many will be killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

If you would have continued to read farther down in the same chapter, you would have read the following:

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

In the scripture above, Paul states that there is One who is restraining the full force of sin from being unleashed and the man of lawlessness/antichrist from being revealed until his proper time. The One who is restraining him is the Holy Spirit through the indwelling the church and therefore, when the restrainer (Holy Spirit) is removed, then every believer within the church must also be removed and that prior to the revealing of that man of lawlessness. In the scripture that you quoted, I don't believe that Paul is giving a chronological order there of the Apostasy, the man of lawlessness and then our being gathered. The problem is that, the two scriptures would appear to contradict themselves, but I think that the problem is the way in which Paul worded the first verse. In my opinion and according to the other scripture, the order of events will be 1). The apostasy, 2). our being gathered and 3). the man lawlessness will be revealed.

Ahwatukee · Mar 5, 2016

Hello again Jayoish,

The reason that you don't think that what you are saying "doesn't click for me" is because you are missing information regarding the two separate events and that there is one group that is the Church and the other group that will be present during the great tribulation period. Because you haven't understood these issues and other, you are melding the events and these two groups together. Once you understand that the church and great tribulation saints are two different groups and that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then you will have a better understanding.

Ahwatukee · Mar 6, 2016

I can assure that I am not confused. Neither I nor the rest of the church who are looking for the "blessed hope" will be here for the Great Tribulation. I keep telling you that scripture states that Jesus has rescued us from God's wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. But for the sake of your argument, if I was here during that time, I and the rest of the church would know exactly what was happening. The first thing that we would notice is that antichrist would make his seven year covenant with Israel, which would allow them to build their long-awaited temple. Then, we would know that 3 1/2 year later that the antichrist was going to cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and would then set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. The entire church would know who he is! We would also be able to follow the wrath of God like a road map through the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments.

Jayoish, how could I respond to each and every section of your post unless I read it? You have not made it clear, as I keep showing you your error and you continue to ignore it. You don't even address what I have brought up. Your error is two-fold, one, you don't have enough study to understand that the events of the gathering of the church and Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events. And two, you don't understand that the "Church" and the 'great tribulation saints" are two different groups. If you did, then when you come across the word "Saints" after chapter 4, then you would know that it is the great tribulation saints that are in view and not Church. Also, if you understood the nature of God and what Christ did, you would know that God is not going to send his Church through that last seven years to experience any of his wrath. But you won't even consider these things. So, at this point, I will leave you to your beliefs, as I can see that you are not willing to learn, but are more concerned with sticking to what you have been taught and fighting it tooth and nail.

DP · Mar 6, 2016

Jayoish said:

The only places there (in bold) I would have to disagree. I don't see anyone left in flesh bodies after Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord". Several reasons for that, here's one of them.

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Here's another, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in the OT prophets about death being swallowed up:

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

That "face of the covering cast over all people", and "the vail that is spread over all nations", in relation to death being swallowed up in victory, I interpret to mean a complete end of flesh death forever on the day of Christ's coming, for ALL peoples, not just Christ's elect. I do not believe only some will be walking around on earth in resurrected bodies while the unsaved are still in flesh bodies. I see that Isaiah 25 event meaning the Heavenly dimension revealed to all... peoples on the earth with their being changed at the "last trump" also.

When Apostle Paul was teaching about the resurrection, I know it's popularly understood that he was speaking of only those of Christ's Church being 'changed' on that day. But what he actually said was "but we all shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51). That means all being changed to the "spiritual body" he taught there, the "image of the heavenly" which he also said earlier there that we all shall have borne (1 Cor.15:49).

Here's another reason why I say that:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Jesus showed us BOTH resurrection TYPES will occur on that same day of His 2nd coming. That reveals that the implied 2nd resurrection at the end of the thousand years is not that "resurrection of damnation", but of another type.

Isa.25:9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

This Isaiah 25:9 verse after that death swallowed up in victory idea shows us the timing of that event, i.e., when Christ Jesus is revealed to those who wait... for Him, in other words, His 2nd coming.

Jayoish · Mar 6, 2016

DP said:

DP, there is so much to cover, until I did leave out certain things, as you can see the posting was very long as it is. But yes there are still flesh and blood bodies still there during this time. This is Jesus Kingdom in which flesh and blood will still exist in his kingdom, but can not exist during the Father's kingdom.

There are a couple of places in the bible I know of that talks about it and show that there are still flesh and blood in the four quarters of the earth. Only people who change where the dead who rise in Christ and those who alive that were ready in Christ upon his return. All others alive who were not deem worthy at the time of his coming, remained flesh and blood.

Zechariah 14:-- is after Jesus return and take the earth and it say men will dwell there in Jerusalem safely. It says that everyone that is left of the nations will have to come up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, Jesus and keep his feast. They are going to be required to serve him, if they do not come and serve him then it won't rain on their crop and they will be punished with plagues:

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
these tents, as this plague.16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Also in Revelation 20th chapter -- it tells of Gog and Magog where flesh and blood still exist, will allow the Devil, after he is released from his 1000 year bound, to come and deceive them to be headed over to Jerusalem to start war with Jesus and the saints, but the Father will rain fire from heaven and devour them.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

DP said:

On this DP, it is a very difficult picture to get completely, but we must remember how He told us we must read the Bible. Isaiah 28:10 -- 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

So we must remember that precept must be on precept, line upon line and we might find it part in OT and part NT.

So this is what I think and you can tell me what you think:

The first resurrection is before the 1000 years reign and the second resurrection is after the 1000 years reign!

Those who Jesus found to be worthy and ready when he comes, take part in first resurrection where you do not have to stand before judgement, but those who are not deem worthy both dead and alive will take part in the 2nd resurrection and stand judgement to see if their good outweigh their bad.

The ones still alive having a chance to work on it and get it right, but the ones dead having to wait for the judgement to see what the outcome is.

Evidenced: (I want to point out 2 things) reason why it say in I Thessalonian 4:16 that the dead in Christ shall rise first. (point 1 - why didn't it just say and the dead rise first - if all dead is going to be changed the same day, instead of the dead in Christ which insinuate that the only one who are to rise are the ones in Christ) Point 2 - If everyone is to be changed at the time of Jesus coming, then how is there flesh and blood still around during and after the 1000 years reign of Jesus. Proof by the scriptures above I gave - Zechariah 14:11-19 and Revelation 20:7-9 that show they exist.
I Thessalonians 4:16 --
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Now I think these are valid points which needs to be considered before proceeding, because as the Bible states, precepts must be on precepts. These doe not allow precept to be on precept. In other words, they don't add up, they contradicts each other. In order for precept to be on precept, the sequence of events must got together.

Now, if we follow precept upon precept, it make sense that the 1st resurrection happens at Christ return and not the judgement which is the 2nd resurrection. Also scriptural proof states that Jesus promises those who are ready when he come only, to be part of his rest -- which is the 1000 year reign of peace.

Although Revelation 20:4-6 gives you confirmed scriptural proof that only the dead in Christ rises in the first resurrection and not all deads. It states:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (These are all the people who had made it up to where Jesus return, including people in Great Tribulation, because as he stated in Matthew 24:29, he is not going to return but until immediately after the Great Tribulation!)5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Note: something important this complete passage tells me is that if you are in the first resurrection you do not have to stand in judgment, but you will Judge the world) (Therefore, I am, as Paul said, striving to make the mark of the first resurrection and I encourage all of you to do the same.)

Psalms 95:
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Hebrew 3:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So as you see he told the children of Israel which died in the wilderness, they can not enter into his rest, only those it is promised to who obeyed him. If all dead rise and is changed, then they will be entering into his rest, which is the 1000 years of peace.

Only those who obeyed and ready will be in his rest; therefore, that is why the Devil is bound for the 1000 years. Revelation 20:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

But as Revelation 20:7-8 states Satan will not be released until after the 1000 years to go forth to deceive again - (my thoughts are that this is to tried those who are still flesh and blood to see where they are going to stand in the midst of temptation. It is easy to do right when there is no wrong and no temptation.)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Now the other things you were asking about such as in John 5:28 (resurrection of life to those who did good and unto damnation for those who have done bad) that is what the 2nd Resurrections bring about because they will be judged and every one will be changed to the glorified bodies. And Jesus and his saints will judge them and reward them according to their works. If they did works deserving to enter the kingdom, then they will be allowed into the kingdom and otherwise, will be cast into the Lake of Fire. After Jesus complete the Judgement, death and hell are the last two he will cast into the lake of fire and then he will hand over the kingdom to the Father who will bring down his Kingdom and we will reign with them forever.

Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

So tell me what you think and if there is a scripture in which I missed that will bring this out more, please share it with me. As Paul stated we are all in this race, trying not to miss the mark and only through a joint effort will we be able to complete the race. It is not about me or you, but about Christ and getting this thing right...at least for those of us who are truly trying to get it right.

I know it is long, but it is the only way to be thorough and get the full picture we need.

Shalom,

Jayoish

valiant · Mar 6, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I can assure that I am not confused. Neither I nor the rest of the church who are looking for the "blessed hope" will be here for the Great Tribulation. I keep telling you that scripture states that Jesus has rescued us from God's wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. But for the sake of your argument, if I was here during that time, I and the rest of the church would know exactly what was happening. The first thing that we would notice is that antichrist would make his seven year covenant with Israel, which would allow them to build their long-awaited temple. Then, we would know that 3 1/2 year later that the antichrist was going to cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and would then set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. The entire church would know who he is! We would also be able to follow the wrath of God like a road map through the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments.

Jayoish, how could I respond to each and every section of your post unless I read it? You have not made it clear, as I keep showing you your error and you continue to ignore it. You don't even address what I have brought up. Your error is two-fold, one, you don't have enough study to understand that the events of the gathering of the church and Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events. And two, you don't understand that the "Church" and the 'great tribulation saints" are two different groups. If you did, then when you come across the word "Saints" after chapter 4, then you would know that it is the great tribulation saints that are in view and not Church. Also, if you understood the nature of God and what Christ did, you would know that God is not going to send his Church through that last seven years to experience any of his wrath. But you won't even consider these things. So, at this point, I will leave you to your beliefs, as I can see that you are not willing to learn, but are more concerned with sticking to what you have been taught and fighting it tooth and nail.

The Scripture knows of many days of the LORD. A day of the Lord is a day of God's judgment. For example Isaiah 13 is the day of God's wrath on Babylon centuries before Christ. You simply are blind to the truth. So you ARE confused, But then you do believe in a Great Tribulation which isn't in the Bible LOL Dream on,

Jayoish · Mar 7, 2016

valiant said:

Oh, but you are wrong, Valiant, it is in the Bible. As a matter of fact Jesus tells us about it himself in Matthew 24 chapter after his disciples come to him privately and ask him when was the temple going to be torn down, what shall be the sign of his coming and of the end of the world.

And you should not make fun of people and be ugly to them, as you did to Ahwatukee. That is wrong!

See Scripture Matthew 24:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Starting at the 15th verse where he talks about the abomination desolation is where the Great Tribulation began, he say to flee and tells of how things are going to be. Then in 21st and 29th verse he actually say there shall be great tribulation such as never before. He tells us that immediately after the tribulation certain things will happen, and those things mark his coming.

Shalom,

Jayoish

DP · Mar 7, 2016

Jayoish said:

Yeah, I'm aware where there's certain places in the OT Books that point even to the Levite priests marrying virgins in the Millennial timing, but Jesus showed later that's not true regarding the resurrection; they don't marry nor take in marriage.

Some OT Scripture even uses the word flesh when pointing to certain Millennial events, but that's just used as an expression for people in general.

After Christ's 2nd coming, the only ones that will be subject to the "second death" are those not of the first resurrection.

Per John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus' words, the wicked dead are resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation" on the day of Christ's coming. So if the wicked dead there are raised on that day like it declares, then so will the wicked who remain alive on the day of Christ's coming be changed like we will be. Having half the wicked raised and half of them still in flesh is a major conflict of the Scriptures.

The Day of The Lord

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