The Deity of Jesus Christ

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R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#21
#21
wattie said:
So I have heard people post that Jesus is God.. but then say Jesus is not the Father, not the Holy Spirit.. and the Father is not the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and not Jesus.

But if Jesus is God.. and there is God the Father and God the Son..

And these are not three seperate beings.. but the one triune God.. then

In some sense is not Jesus actually the Father? Since they are all the same one being- God?
Click to expand...
no...the trinity does not have a transitive property of equality :)
 
P

popeye

Guest
#22
#22
wattie said:
Something that I find hard to get my head around..

So I have heard people post that Jesus is God.. but then say Jesus is not the Father, not the Holy Spirit.. and the Father is not the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and not Jesus.

But if Jesus is God.. and there is God the Father and God the Son..

And these are not three seperate beings.. but the one triune God.. then

In some sense is not Jesus actually the Father? Since they are all the same one being- God?


The only other way I can think to see Jesus is not the Father.. is if you are thinking in other terms.. eg..

The mind is not the body.. and the soul is not the body for a person.. but there is the one being-- the person. So I suppose in that sense I could say Jesus is not the Father.


But then I am faced with verses that show them doing the same thing, at the same time.. like when an individual gets saved.. eg... Jesus gives eternal life.. the Father gives eternal life.. and the Holy Spirit seals.

Are they really seperate from each-other?

Ya so this confuses me a bit :)

But I definitely believe Jesus is fully God.
Click to expand...
THEY are one. 3 beings one God.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#23
#23
Angela53510 said:
A few things for you.

1. Let other people post before you bump the thread up again.

2. Wall of text - separate every verse onto its own line. Every section. What you have is too hard to read.

3. Use the search function to find the threads where this has been dealt with. There are many. But don't bump them up. Just use them as a guide for what you are going to post - preferably something new, and that will help someone struggling with this doctrine.
Click to expand...
This was never meant for anyone to respond to it. He's doing it one section at a time to advertise his own site multiple times. It's bad SEO (Search Engine Optimizing) -- black hat marketing. This kind of thing is exactly why we get junk on the first few results of a SERP. (Search Engine Result Pages.)

And then it's a wall of text that would make no one want to read it anyway.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#24
Feb 24, 2009
3,057
1,032
113
New Zealand
#24
popeye said:
THEY are one. 3 beings one God.
Click to expand...
Okay, but then if they are actually three seperate beings.. where is God?

I would have thought it would be the one being-- God.. expressed in three essences/substances.

If you seperate them out into actual three seperate beings.. that I would think would at least look like Polytheism.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#25
#25
wattie said:
Something that I find hard to get my head around..

So I have heard people post that Jesus is God.. but then say Jesus is not the Father, not the Holy Spirit.. and the Father is not the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and not Jesus.

But if Jesus is God.. and there is God the Father and God the Son..

And these are not three seperate beings.. but the one triune God.. then

In some sense is not Jesus actually the Father? Since they are all the same one being- God?


The only other way I can think to see Jesus is not the Father.. is if you are thinking in other terms.. eg..

The mind is not the body.. and the soul is not the body for a person.. but there is the one being-- the person. So I suppose in that sense I could say Jesus is not the Father.


But then I am faced with verses that show them doing the same thing, at the same time.. like when an individual gets saved.. eg... Jesus gives eternal life.. the Father gives eternal life.. and the Holy Spirit seals.

Are they really seperate from each-other?

Ya so this confuses me a bit :)

But I definitely believe Jesus is fully God.
Click to expand...
it makes no sense to me as well so dont feel alone. people say "THEY are one. 3 beings one God." the ones that say this state that the 3 beings do not add up to G-D as well as G-D is not divided into 3 lesser beings. therefor you have 3 but they are one? i dont get it.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#26
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
113
70
Alabama
#26
jaybird88 said:
it makes no sense to me as well so dont feel alone. people say "THEY are one. 3 beings one God." the ones that say this state that the 3 beings do not add up to G-D as well as G-D is not divided into 3 lesser beings. therefor you have 3 but they are one? i dont get it.
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How much do you know about music?
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#28
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
113
70
Alabama
#28
jaybird88 said:
i like music, im not an expert or a musician.
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Think about the concept of triadic unity as it defines a chord of music. Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but for some reason some find it difficult to invision this same concept as it applies to God. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#29
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#29
oldhermit said:
Think about the concept of triadic unity as it defines a chord of music. Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but for some reason some find it difficult to invision this same concept as it applies to God. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
Click to expand...

Your music chord example is flawed, as it consists of three (or more) different value notes coming together to make one sound.

That is not what The Trinity is.

Each Person of the Trinity has the same exact value, and Each Person does not need to come together to make God.


A better example is...

1 = 1 = 1

In this simple example, Each has the same exact value, but each is not the other.


 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#30
#30
oldhermit said:
Think about the concept of triadic unity as it defines a chord of music. Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but for some reason some find it difficult to invision this same concept as it applies to God. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
Click to expand...
this i understand and this is why i dont understand the trinity concept. c, e, and g combine to make the ‘c’ cord. is c note the same as c cord? is e note the same as c cord? from my understanding they are not the same.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#31
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
113
70
Alabama
#31
jaybird88 said:
this i understand and this is why i dont understand the trinity concept. c, e, and g combine to make the ‘c’ cord. is c note the same as c cord? is e note the same as c cord? from my understanding they are not the same.
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Every chord is designated according to its primary note. If you add a seventh it is still a chord but ceases to be a triad. Like I said, this illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations. All this illustration is designed to do help us grasp the concept on three in one. If we can grasp how three separate and distinct notes form one chord then why is it so difficult to comprehend how the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit form one God?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#32
#32
oldhermit said:
Every chord is designated according to its primary note. If you add a seventh it is still a chord but ceases to be a triad. Like I said, this illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations. All this illustration is designed to do help us grasp the concept on three in one. If we can grasp how three separate and distinct notes form one chord then why is it so difficult to comprehend how the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit form one God?
Click to expand...
whats hard to comprehend is that the Father, who Jesus gave all His glory to, the Father who said His fullness could not be contained in the heavens and earth, in the trinity becomes 1 of 3 beings. to me a being is lesser than the Almighty. just like a note is lesser than a cord.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#33
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
13,139
113
#33
i like this figure of a musical chord - it's like a Fourier series - every wave can be written as a composition of sine waves, with different amplitude modulation and phase shift. i'm thinking of how we all make up the body of Christ, the expression of God's light in the world until the Righteous One returns in person.
also an imperfect metaphor of course, but interesting to me, anyway.

as far as what you say Bowman, why measure some waves as having different 'value' because of their phase or amplitude? there are many measures. ol' hermit's admittedly not trying to present a perfect homology - just an illustration to help understand a very big concept. where this kind of analogy fails can be just as instructive as where it succeeds - you're right too, but then there are also flaws in terms of how to 'measure'

what we know for sure, is that there is exactly one God - and He has revealed Himself to us in 3 distinct ways. we ought to focus on Him, and we don't need to be at odds with each other :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#34
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
13,139
113
#34
jaybird88 said:
whats hard to comprehend is that the Father, who Jesus gave all His glory to, the Father who said His fullness could not be contained in the heavens and earth, in the trinity becomes 1 of 3 beings. to me a being is lesser than the Almighty. just like a note is lesser than a cord.
Click to expand...
i see that - i think of it more as poking your fingertip into a pond. all the fish see of you is the tip of that finger, and they feel your presence in the ripples of water you produce by your displacement & movement. but you are much more than that; a thing the fishes in the water can't fully see - and at the same time, your finger is you.

Christ is like the hand of God, thrust into humanity. fully God, but in a limited expression.

this isn't any kind of perfect analogy either :)
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#35
#35
oldhermit said:
Every chord is designated according to its primary note. If you add a seventh it is still a chord but ceases to be a triad. Like I said, this illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations. All this illustration is designed to do help us grasp the concept on three in one. If we can grasp how three separate and distinct notes form one chord then why is it so difficult to comprehend how the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit form one God?
Click to expand...
thank you for the well thought out illustration. im sorry i dont see what you see but it did help me to see some other things.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#36
#36
posthuman said:
i see that - i think of it more as poking your fingertip into a pond. all the fish see of you is the tip of that finger, and they feel your presence in the ripples of water you produce by your displacement & movement. but you are much more than that; a thing the fishes in the water can't fully see - and at the same time, your finger is you.

Christ is like the hand of God, thrust into humanity. fully God, but in a limited expression.

this isn't any kind of perfect analogy either :)
Click to expand...
thanks PH and i have always liked and respected your scientific/spiritual perspective on all these subjects. i personally think this is much more complicated. didnt Jesus tell us only the Father fully knows the Son and only the Son fully understands the Father ( or something to that affect) which IMO means we may be on the right path but it m,ay take many more years of knowledge and wisdom to fully understand all the details between Jesus and the Father.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#37
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
13,139
113
#37
jaybird88 said:
thanks PH and i have always liked and respected your scientific/spiritual perspective on all these subjects. i personally think this is much more complicated. didnt Jesus tell us only the Father fully knows the Son and only the Son fully understands the Father ( or something to that affect) which IMO means we may be on the right path but it m,ay take many more years of knowledge and wisdom to fully understand all the details between Jesus and the Father.
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aw, thanks :eek:

and yes, this --

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Matthew 11:27)​

& i don't think we'll fully understand until He comes back for us, because, this --

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(1 Corinthians 13:12)​
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#38
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#38
posthuman said:
i like this figure of a musical chord - it's like a Fourier series - every wave can be written as a composition of sine waves, with different amplitude modulation and phase shift. i'm thinking of how we all make up the body of Christ, the expression of God's light in the world until the Righteous One returns in person.
also an imperfect metaphor of course, but interesting to me, anyway.

as far as what you say Bowman, why measure some waves as having different 'value' because of their phase or amplitude? there are many measures. ol' hermit's admittedly not trying to present a perfect homology - just an illustration to help understand a very big concept. where this kind of analogy fails can be just as instructive as where it succeeds - you're right too, but then there are also flaws in terms of how to 'measure'

what we know for sure, is that there is exactly one God - and He has revealed Himself to us in 3 distinct ways. we ought to focus on Him, and we don't need to be at odds with each other :)
Click to expand...

Too many people attempt to use flawed analogies to represent the Trinity....i.e the egg analogy....the water analogy....the musical chord analogy, etc...

Since you are into math, you can appreciate the sheer beauty and simplicity of the 1 = 1 = 1 example.

Its the flawless universal language of math.
 
T

thebesttrees

Guest
#39
#39
wattie said:
Something that I find hard to get my head around..

So I have heard people post that Jesus is God.. but then say Jesus is not the Father, not the Holy Spirit.. and the Father is not the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and not Jesus.

But if Jesus is God.. and there is God the Father and God the Son..

And these are not three seperate beings.. but the one triune God.. then

In some sense is not Jesus actually the Father? Since they are all the same one being- God?


The only other way I can think to see Jesus is not the Father.. is if you are thinking in other terms.. eg..

The mind is not the body.. and the soul is not the body for a person.. but there is the one being-- the person. So I suppose in that sense I could say Jesus is not the Father.


But then I am faced with verses that show them doing the same thing, at the same time.. like when an individual gets saved.. eg... Jesus gives eternal life.. the Father gives eternal life.. and the Holy Spirit seals.

Are they really seperate from each-other?

Ya so this confuses me a bit :)

But I definitely believe Jesus is fully God.
Click to expand...

Please site the verses that you have difficulty understanding or harmonizing in light of the Godhead of Christ.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#40
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#40
wattie said:
Something that I find hard to get my head around..

So I have heard people post that Jesus is God.. but then say Jesus is not the Father, not the Holy Spirit.. and the Father is not the Holy Spirit and not Jesus.. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and not Jesus.

But if Jesus is God.. and there is God the Father and God the Son..

And these are not three seperate beings.. but the one triune God.. then

In some sense is not Jesus actually the Father? Since they are all the same one being- God?


The only other way I can think to see Jesus is not the Father.. is if you are thinking in other terms.. eg..

The mind is not the body.. and the soul is not the body for a person.. but there is the one being-- the person. So I suppose in that sense I could say Jesus is not the Father.


But then I am faced with verses that show them doing the same thing, at the same time.. like when an individual gets saved.. eg... Jesus gives eternal life.. the Father gives eternal life.. and the Holy Spirit seals.

Are they really seperate from each-other?

Ya so this confuses me a bit :)

But I definitely believe Jesus is fully God.
Click to expand...
When we talk about God we talk about Someone Who is wholly beyond our understanding. We only know about God what He has been pleased to reveal about Himself.

Thus we know that God is one Being with three interpersonalities. Father speaks to Son, and both communicate with the Spirit. Yet they always act as One. They cannot be separated. We are indwelt by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Whenever the Father acts, the Son and Holy Spirit also act. And yet in their oneness there is threeness of interpersonality.
 
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