The Doctrine of Christ and Walking As He Walked

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Jan 19, 2013
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#21
The ministration of the Spirit is the ministration of righteousness. Hence we go full circle back to my original post in this thread made in 2012 where I stated that
the doctrine of Jesus Christ is the doctrine according to godliness. The doctrine according to godliness is that we must WALK/ABIDE in and anyone who brings a teaching that denies that simple truth is not of Jesus Christ.
The doctrine of Jesus Christ is the whole NT.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#22
After all, is this not how Christ walked? In love and obedience to the Father and above reproach as far as the law is concerned?
My current opinion is that the law and prophets all hang on "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul" and "Love your neighbor as yourself".


If you take into consideration that we are not the physical nation of Israel with it's government established over it, that the temple has been destroyed by God and that we are to observe the Spirit of the law and not the letter of the law and that Christ is our High Priest to the order of Melchizedek (Not Aaronic/Levitical), then what God taught through Christ in the OT does not differ from the NT.


You have heard it said that Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to "pleroo" the law, as some would translate it "fully preach", "render in full"?


Definition
to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment


My reconciliation with a couple of typical issues is as follows,


Capital Punishment - Christ did not say capital punishment was abolished, but made it unobservable by subjecting Israel to Roman authority. When questioned about the prostitute, He said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". He being the only one that could make that claim and He also was the only one who could forgive her sins, which He did.

We are still to observe the Spirit of the law in this regard, but we no longer have to kill people to physically remove them from a physical land:

Deuteronomy 17
6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.


1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”



One of the main things Paul preached against, referring to it as a work of the flesh, was physical circumcision as a requirement to belong to Christ. Many people seem to have taken these verses out of context to mean that Paul was condemning the whole law. Yet circumcision was not abolished, it is still observed in the Spirit of the law -



Romans 2
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.


^^^ Notice also (besides the points on circumcision) that Paul says that those who are instructed from the law know God's will and approve what is excellent and that those who breaks God's law are the ones who are in error. He says that the law is the embodiment of knowledge and truth.

This next one is also taken by people to mean that the whole of the law was scrapped. It was written in response to people coming to the believers in Galatia and trying to convince them that they were not saved because they did not receive physical circumcision:

Galatians 3
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifythe Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

^^^
It is not saying that the law was a curse though, it is saying that any who are relying on works of the law for salvation are under a curse, because there is no law given to us which can justify us before God apart from Christ.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#23
Capital punishment for the ungodly and those who reject Christ will take place, but not until judgement
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#24
It was written in response to people coming to the believers in Galatia and trying to convince them that they were not saved because they did not receive physical circumcision:
Sorry, I think you would appreciate this wording instead:

It was written in response to people coming to the believers in Galatia and trying to convince them that they were *not in Christ* because they did not receive physical circumcision:
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#26
Jesus taught the opposite...

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Your proposition is insane. What you appear to be saying is evil that comes from within is innate within a human, from which there is no answer. But if there is no answer then people are forever lost to sin, because it is the nature of people themselves.

Jesus was pointing out the people are defiled by letting their thoughts led to thinking about sin and dwelling on, which finally leads to actions, words or deeds.

What I am saying is love changes this process and changes the source of the ideas, so that they no longer defile people, but by the spirit of God are cleansed and pure.

Now I could analyse further. Let us say you get angry at a situation, or frustrated. You choose to let that emotion fester until to resolve the emotion you start to focus on an individual, and imagine killing them to resolve the issue. Jesus is saying this step is willfull and sinfull. But the point is in dealing with the chain of events which build up to the sinfull defiling situation, using love and understanding.

The model you are suggesting is obtaining a pure heart, as if this happens when people become christians first off.
Think of the parable of the seed and the sower. A plant is not fully formed when the seed germinates. No it has to grow and develop, send its roots deep into the soil. The soil is the heart of an individual, the seed is Jesus's love working its way through the mechanisms and responses of the believer. This process is not doctrinal as you are suggesting or taught, it is about taking Jesus's commands and letting love provide the healing and motivation.

The heart causes defilement because it is driven by pain, hurt and disappointment, so there is nothing to put raw emotional responses into context, and breads sinful attitudes.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
Why do people respond to Skinski's rants? just let him go.. its not worth it, He will never change his mind, his pride is too deep.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#29
Why do people respond to Skinski's rants? just let him go.. its not worth it, He will never change his mind, his pride is too deep.
Because he understands the Word and is a great source of wisdom which he has received from the Lord.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#30
Because he understands the Word and is a great source of wisdom which he has received from the Lord.
He does not understand God. He does not even know God.

He is a modern day pharisee of the worst type. He rejects the fact Jesus died for our sin and penal substitution on the cross.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#31
The doctrine of Jesus Christ is the whole NT.
Agreed. . .I did not exclude the OT. . .nor any of the NT.
--If Christ is the Word of God and gave us the commandments of the OT (as no one has seen or heard the Father) :

John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 5
37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

--And then Christ came and reiterated, fully taught and fulfilled the commandments which He previously had given:

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to "pleroo" them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others.

--And the Father and Son do not change:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts.


Psalms 33
11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.



--And Paul confirms that the law is good, Holy, from God and should be upheld by us:

Romans 7
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.


12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


Romans 3
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

--Then why anyone say that only what is found in the NT is the doctrine/instruction from our Lord?
Especially when it all comes first from the OT?
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#32
He does not understand God. He does not even know God.

He is a modern day pharisee of the worst type. He rejects the fact Jesus died for our sin and penal substitution on the cross.
We would all do well to fully understand and heed his words.
 
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Dec 26, 2014
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#33
from what you posted yourself pj, skski is right in line with scripture. and i didn't even read his posts......
just read your post and what you said he said.... ... .....

again, if you posted what he said correctly, he is right on with scripture.....

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
We would all do well to fully understand and heed his words.

thanks.

But I would rather have a relationship with God. Not spend eternity in hell.. So I will pass
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#35

thanks.

But I would rather have a relationship with God. Not spend eternity in hell.. So I will pass
Pretty sure differences of opinion on this matter will not directly cause someone to be destroyed on judgement day.
Believing that we can continue in sin after coming to Christ on the other hand can and does lead to people's destruction.


Was Christ punished for our sins? Did He Himself become guilty of our sin?

I don't see how that would be possible, because the wages of sin is death, not a sprinkling of wrath.
Death of both the body and the soul at judgement...

So what did take place on the cross?
 
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Dec 26, 2014
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#36
not diminishing the work of the cross -- -as in the emissaries message was "yahshua hamashiach crucified!"(and all that entails as the GOOD NEWS of YAHWEH'S WORD) ---

but look ahead to what GOD'S WORD SAYS on/about/ judgment day. it's a surprise for billions of people ---
especially bad for those who think they know something, for billions who think they are saved ,
a complete surprise they don't expect, according to YAHWEH'S WORD.

it's not open to interpretation, discussion or deviation. YAHWEH'S WORD won't change. IT IS SO.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#37
Not diminishing the work on the cross in the least.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#38
from what you posted yourself pj, skski is right in line with scripture. and i didn't even read his posts......
just read your post and what you said he said.... ... .....

again, if you posted what he said correctly, he is right on with scripture.....
There is a subtle problem here. Jesus is pointing out a true reality. It is our hearts that define us, not what we do. If becoming a christian does not change the heart there is no value in being a christian and the faith is dead.

Jesus came to do what? To bring life, to bring truth, to bring freedom. But from what? The judgement seat of God, so we are given a free ticket into heaven? In one sense yes, but in another no. Without change, the ticket has not been bought, the birth is not real, and everything is as it was.

The image is the believer can not earn the change but can effect its reality. By staying in believing you are changed, but give up the faith, and the effects will disappear. I wondered many years how can this be. It is by seeing Jesus's love expressed in his life that works through every emotion, situation, experience, relationship, attitude. You become something different, he breaths life into you, your heart changes.

What many "biblical" students here do, is see the words in isolation of life, who where never part of the spiritual process, and appear wise, but actually preach death and condemnation. No wonder people feel defeated and lost without hope under these ministries, and yet people like this you will say, oh so wise. If this is the Kingdom, it is not the Kingdom of God or Jesus.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#39
There is a subtle problem here. Jesus is pointing out a true reality. It is our hearts that define us, not what we do. If becoming a christian does not change the heart there is no value in being a christian and the faith is dead.

Jesus came to do what? To bring life, to bring truth, to bring freedom. But from what? The judgement seat of God, so we are given a free ticket into heaven? In one sense yes, but in another no. Without change, the ticket has not been bought, the birth is not real, and everything is as it was.
We do not buy the ticket, it is given, and those to whom it is given manifest that it has been.

Those without such manifestation show that it was never given to them and they are not saved.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#40
Pretty sure differences of opinion on this matter will not directly cause someone to be destroyed on judgement day.
Prety sure paul said there is but one gospel. and one gospel only. There are no replacement gospels. no matter how close they are. anyone who teaches another should be anathema'd (damned)

So, yes, People will be destroyed on great white throne day for buying into skinski's man made, works base, self promoting gospel.

Believing that we can continue in sin after coming to Christ on the other hand can and does lead to people's destruction.
I never said we could The bible says one who is born of God can not do this, so what is skinskis argument other than trying to be righteous so he can earn his salvation. He does not believe Christ paid for his sin, he has to pay for his own.


Was Christ punished for our sins? Did He Himself become guilty of our sin?
He who knew no sin BECAME SIN for us, so we MAY BE made the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST in him.

What else would jesus do. he fulfilled the atoning sacrificed symbolized in the OT Priesthood. as the lamb who took the penalty of the peoples sins and died.


I don't see how that would be possible, because the wages of sin is death, not a sprinkling of wrath.
Death of both the body and the soul at judgement...
The wage of sin is death, Why do you think you are born dead, in adam. and must be born again (made alive)? Because your dead in sin.

there is no soul anialation after judgment, that is a cop out. Those who go to hell suffer the second death. But they were already dead to God as they were in adam.




So what did take place on the cross?
Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. (the law) And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The penalty of sin is death, the curse of sin is death, the curse of the law is death. Jesus took this curse in our place. so we could be set free from the curse.

Gal 3[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.