THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#81
Ultimate "lawyer" talk;

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your efather and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himselfwill be with them, and be their Father. And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."
 

Chopper

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
402
11
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#82
All this going back and forth over the law.... I'm curious.
What is the law of life?
What is the law of Yah?

Why do those that truly seek Him find delight in His law?

Why do others claim the law has been done away with and all we are supposed to do is love one another, which in turn AL:L the law hangs on that?

Are there those trying to say we have no laws but to love Yah and one another?

The law of love for Him and one another says what?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,758
6,339
113
#83
look at what you just wrote and compare that to love God and love your neighbor. think i'll just stick with the latter.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#84
look at what you just wrote and compare that to love God and love your neighbor. think i'll just stick with the latter.
I posted only Scripture from the mouth of Messiah (except for 3 verses)

John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous.

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#85
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Sophia

Guest
#86
I think most of this can be boiled down very simply.
Can a person be saved by the simple Gospel without any knowledge of the 10 Commandments, and live righteously without any knowledge of the Law? Yes.
Can a person become distracted from obeying the Spirit because they are focusing on trying to obtain the perfection of the Letter of the Law? Yes.
Is the Law in agreement with the Spirit? Yes.
Do we understand the Law without the Spirit? No.
Can a person think they understand the Law without having the Spirit? Yes, as the unbelieving Jews have shown.

The Spirit produces lawFULLNESS in Believers. The Law brings conviction and condemnation upon the unbeliever, and instruction to the Believer. Believers are no longer under it's condemnation, but are still under it's instruction (through the guidance of the Spirit, and not by man's understanding of the Law).

Can a Believer claim to have the Spirit, yet not bear the fruit of the Spirit? If we have the fruit of the Spirit, by living in love, joy, peace, patience, etc... then we will fulfill the Law, even if we have no knowledge of it.
 
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Sophia

Guest
#87
The Law is literal and physical for the unbeliever, and the Law is interpreted through the Spirit and is spiritual to the Believer.
We are not under the literal (letter) of the Law. We are under the Spirit of the Law.
The Spirit of the Law is not fleshly or carnal or prone to selfish fulfilment of our worldly desires. The Spirit of the Law does not bring lasciviousness, but brings holiness and purity and uprightness.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#88
How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is ok, against the Scripture say is ok would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"
The Law is literal and physical for the unbeliever, and the Law is interpreted through the Spirit and is spiritual to the Believer.
We are not under the literal (letter) of the Law. We are under the Spirit of the Law.
The Spirit of the Law is not fleshly or carnal or prone to selfish fulfilment of our worldly desires. The Spirit of the Law does not bring lasciviousness, but brings holiness and purity and uprightness.
I agree 100%, I just cant find the words, I try to talk with Scripture but I think it comes off the wrong way.

that is what I see in Romans 8

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

Ezekiyl 36:26-28, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#89
I agree 100%, I just cant find the words, I try to talk with Scripture but I think it comes off the wrong way.

that is what I see in Romans 8

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

Ezekiyl 36:26-28, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."
Out of all my posts here this explains how I feel.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#90
Sure we admit and uphold the righteous standard of the law but we also admit the truth that being under the law we cannot fulfill and keep it.... That its actually produces sinful lust and desires in the flesh.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#91
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4[/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Yes, we are given the righteousness of the Law when we are given the righteousness of Christ, because He fulfilled the Law, so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit.
Those who follow the physical only are not following the Spirit, but following after their own understanding.
 
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Sep 30, 2014
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#92
EXODUS 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover; No stranger shall eat of it.
Wait a minute, it says in Exodus 12:48 that gentiles can eat of the Passover but in this verse it says they can not?
EXODUS 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then shall he eat of it.


The ONLY gentiles who could eat the Passover with the Israelites were slaves they owned



Different laws for Israelites and gentiles

I'm under Yahshua Ma'schiach brothers... not the law or Moses ... I keep the commandments through the Spirit and do good unto YAH and for my brothers and sisters... Simple, live righteously, we know none of you can keep these laws..
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#93
EXODUS 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover; No stranger shall eat of it.
Wait a minute, it says in Exodus 12:48 that gentiles can eat of the Passover but in this verse it says they can not?
EXODUS 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then shall he eat of it.


The ONLY gentiles who could eat the Passover with the Israelites were slaves they owned



Different laws for Israelites and gentiles

I'm under Yahshua Ma'schiach brothers... not the law or Moses ... I keep the commandments through the Spirit and do good unto YAH and for my brothers and sisters... Simple, live righteously, we know none of you can keep these laws..
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#94
There's nothing that The Word of God or God loves best then sola scriptura posts :D

I'm smiling there, but it's grievious to read people's opinions Only - and I'll add - with just a tiny bit of scripture added to the human's words.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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#95
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
Yes, we're grafted in ...
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#96
Yes, we are given the righteousness of the Law when we are given the righteousness of Christ, because He fulfilled the Law, so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit.
Those who follow the physical only are not following the Spirit, but following after their own understanding.
you did not read the scripture correctly....That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#97
you did not read the scripture correctly....That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
?
I think that's exactly what I was saying. What part of my post do you disagree with?
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#98
a-a-and, that's the problem.
we
have to cheapen the demands of the Law in order to think we're pulling it off.

when i read God's Law...it crushes me. because i KNOW i'm not doing it, to the degree God requires.
causes me to run to the Lord Jesus for grace, and more grace.

if not for the Perfect Righteousness of Jesus...i would not stand at all. ♥
You miss the greater point that Mitspa is preaching on.

Jesus is not the perfect righteousness....YOU ARE!

2 Cor 5.21 says God made Jesus sin, so you could become Righteous.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You are no longer under the law but grace....you become righteous[ which is a position and not attained by personal performance] through faith given to you by the grace of God.

Romans 10.10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The law was meant to "crush" you and you will never fulfill the law physically or by human means, because it was given to show you the need for a savior and the need for the free gift of righteousness.

1 Cor 15.56 tells us that the sin actually receives its power and strength through the law:
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

You are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus....

I would recommend the book: The 2 kinds of RIghteousness by E. W. Kenyon and you will be set free!
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#99
?
I think that's exactly what I was saying. What part of my post do you disagree with?
Yes, we are given the righteousness of the Law when we are given the righteousness of Christ, because He fulfilled the Law, so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit.
Those who follow the physical only are not following the Spirit, but following after their own understanding.
you say one is given the righteousness of the law,when we are given the righteousness of Christ because he fulfilled the law,so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit...scripture says...the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit...
you are saying the righteousness of the law is already given...and already fulfilled in us....scripture says that it might be fulfilled in us who walk after the spirit
 
Sep 30, 2014
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You miss the greater point that Mitspa is preaching on.

Jesus is not the perfect righteousness....YOU ARE!

2 Cor 5.21 says God made Jesus sin, so you could become Righteous.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You are no longer under the law but grace....you become righteous[ which is a position and not attained by personal performance] through faith given to you by the grace of God.

Romans 10.10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The law was meant to "crush" you and you will never fulfill the law physically or by human means, because it was given to show you the need for a savior and the need for the free gift of righteousness.

1 Cor 15.56 tells us that the sin actually receives its power and strength through the law:
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

You are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus....

I would recommend the book: The 2 kinds of RIghteousness by E. W. Kenyon and you will be set free!
He who lives in me...


Paul Confronts Peter
…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."