The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Magenta]

So all the sins of the world haven't been atoned for.

There's the unforgivable one.

Just like not ALL have fallen short, nor have ALL sinned (for Jesus does/did not).

 

[Mercy4u]

No Spirit = sin = death

Its ok to say it. I already know.

Hi Grandpa. And holy cow ,we are close to the same age, and my kids are YOUNG!! Geezer

Just a note, that most overlook.

No Spirit=self righteousness/pride/own works/own DEEDS=no salvation/eternal death.

Because Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE world.

1 John 2:2

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Grandpa]

Not being born again of the Spirit (for all die the death of the flesh, which counts for nothing.) It is the second death that believers escape.

We can do this all day.

What's causing them to not be born again?

They didn't come to Christ.

Why didn't they come to Christ?

sin. They didn't believe Him.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa. And holy cow ,we are close to the same age, and my kids are YOUNG!! Geezer

Just a note, that most overlook.

No Spirit=self righteousness/pride/own works/own DEEDS=no salvation/eternal death.

Because Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE world.

1 John 2:2

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

He paid for the sins of the whole world for the people who believe Him.

Otherwise, John 3:18 [FONT=&quot]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[/FONT]IF they have no sin then what can they be condemned of/for?

No Spirit=self righteousness/pride/own works/own DEEDS= SIN =no salvation/eternal death.

 

[Magenta]

We can do this all day.

What's causing them to not be born again?

They didn't come to Christ.

Why didn't they come to Christ?

sin. They didn't believe Him.

All day? You have been here for six years!

All sins but one have been forgiven. Jesus said so.

There are a whole lot more sins than one sin that people commit. Every single one is a falling short of the standard of God. Thank God for Jesus Christ! He is my righteousness by faith.

 

[Mercy4u]

IF they have no sin then what can they be condemned of/for?

They are condemned by their own righteousness.

I fed the poor.
I lived as a pauper.
I quit sinning.
I quit smoking.
I was nice.
I was moral.
I followed your laws.
I did mighty deeds in your name.


Mat 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day(judgement day), ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

 

[Grandpa]

They are condemned by their own righteousness.

I fed the poor.
I lived as a pauper.
I quit sinning.
I quit smoking.
I was nice.
I was moral.
I followed your laws.
I did mighty deeds in your name.


Mat 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day(judgement day), ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Which all fall short.

Which is sin... It isn't right before God.

 

[Grandpa]

All day? You have been here for six years!

All sins but one have been forgiven. Jesus said so.

There are a whole lot more sins than one sin that people commit. Every single one is a falling short of the standard of God. Thank God for Jesus Christ! He is my righteousness by faith.

Yes, absolutely Thank God for Jesus Christ.

He is our Righteousness and the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But only for those who believe. Those who don't believe are condemned because they have to rely on their own Righteousness.

The Righteousness of Christ, His Atonement for us, is not imputed to those who don't believe.

 

[Magenta]

Come on now, really? You are saying you do not understand that ALL your sins are forgiven IN CHRIST? When you accept Christ, you have rejected the one unforgivable sin. Reject Him, and you reject what He offers.

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven,
but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Do you count your sins forgiven? Why?

 

[Magenta]

Yes, absolutely Thank God for Jesus Christ.

He is our Righteousness and the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But only for those who believe. Those who don't believe are condemned because they have to rely on their own Righteousness.

The Righteousness of Christ, His Atonement for us, is not imputed to those who don't believe.

No, of course not. Salvation is contingent upon repentance and belief. Christ died once for all, but for those who do not believe, they remain under the law, will be judged by the law, and will be condemned under the law, regardless of their so-called "good works" which are as filthy rags.

 

[Grandpa]

Come on now, really? You are saying you do not understand that ALL your sins are forgiven IN CHRIST? When you accept Christ, you have rejected the one unforgivable sin. Reject Him, and you reject what He offers.

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven,
but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Do you count your sins forgiven? Why?

I can explain all that to you but if you don't even understand that the Atonement of Christ doesn't apply to unbelievers how will you understand any of it??

If there is an unforgivable sin then the sins of the whole world have not been atoned for. There's one that can't be.

So that MUST mean that the sins of the whole world must mean the sins of the whole world who believe the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

 

[Grandpa]

No, of course not. Salvation is contingent upon repentance and belief. Christ died once for all, but for those who do not believe, they remain under the law, will be judged by the law, and will be condemned under the law, regardless of their so-called "good works" which are as filthy rags.

Everybody has such different beliefs and knowledge. Each person I respond to I try to stay inside their beliefs to show them what I am trying to convey.

So if you see me say something different to someone else than what I say to you it is because I am trying show them something inside their own beliefs.


Their works, self righteousness, is dirty rags because it is not right before God. It is sin.

If they were right before God they wouldn't be condemned. They would have to be like Christ with no sin.

 

[Grandpa]

Then you ascribe also to Jesus fell short of God's standard and sinned, to take all to mean without exception when Jesus clearly identified that there is ONE unforgivable sin. You literalists are implacable and so hard headed it is unbelievable that you cannot even get through your thick skull that I have agreed with you on certain points. Your sin is showing.

No, I was showing that the literalists weren't and couldn't be correct as well...

 

[Nehemiah6]

If there is an unforgivable sin then the sins of the whole world have not been atoned for. There's one that can't be.

This is more misunderstanding of the meaning of atonement. ALL SINS -- EVERY SIN -- was atoned for at the Cross. Even those considered monstrous and unforgivable. What you continue to misunderstand is that although the atonement covered every sin, the benefit of that atonement could not be applied to the unbelieving. The unpardonable sin is also an expression of unbelief, since it attributed the miracles of God the Holy Spirit to the Devil.

Sins can only be forgiven when sinners come to God and Christ with a contrite and repentant heart, with sorrow for their sins, and honest admission that they are sinners worthy of Hell. The man who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner" is the one whose sins were forgiven. But the man who did not acknowledge his sins and his sinfulness was not forgiven. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THOSE SINS WERE NOT PAID FOR AT THE CROSS.

So that MUST mean that the sins of the whole world must mean the sins of the whole world who believe the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

Why do you put a twist on what is plainly stated in Scripture? The sins of the whole world means exactly that, and nothing else. No fancy theological interpretation is required. Even a child understands that the whole world means all of humanity.

 

[Magenta]

No, I was showing that the literalists weren't and couldn't be correct as well...

The literalist in you claims all means all without exception even when an exception is identified by Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Grandpa]

This is more misunderstanding of the meaning of atonement. ALL SINS -- EVERY SIN -- was atoned for at the Cross. Even those considered monstrous and unforgivable. What you continue to misunderstand is that although the atonement covered every sin, the benefit of that atonement could not be applied to the unbelieving. The unpardonable sin is also an expression of unbelief, since it attributed the miracles of God the Holy Spirit to the Devil.

Sins can only be forgiven when sinners come to God and Christ with a contrite and repentant heart, with sorrow for their sins, and honest admission that they are sinners worthy of Hell. The man who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner" is the one whose sins were forgiven. But the man who did not acknowledge his sins and his sinfulness was not forgiven. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THOSE SINS WERE NOT PAID FOR AT THE CROSS.

Why do you put a twist on what is plainly stated in Scripture? The sins of the whole world means exactly that, and nothing else. No fancy theological interpretation is required. Even a child understands that the whole world means all of humanity.

Yes. All sin has been paid for at the cross, to everyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Otherwise, they are condemned in their un-belief and sin.

 

[Grandpa]

The literalist in you claims all means all without exception even when an exception is identified by Jesus Christ Himself.

Do you mean that I have to accept some peoples literal interpretation but if I show that literal interpretation as false by another literal interpretation then I am a literalist?

 

[UnderGrace]

You have made this so clear and I keep waiting for a response on of your points.

The default is always you believe in universalism, I find it interesting that this is a very well known rebuttal that is utilized by those that believe in limited atonement, but the scriptures themselves which clearly state Jesus took on the sins of the whole world are never really dealt with.

This is more misunderstanding of the meaning of atonement. ALL SINS -- EVERY SIN -- was atoned for at the Cross. Even those considered monstrous and unforgivable. What you continue to misunderstand is that although the atonement covered every sin, the benefit of that atonement could not be applied to the unbelieving. The unpardonable sin is also an expression of unbelief, since it attributed the miracles of God the Holy Spirit to the Devil.

Sins can only be forgiven when sinners come to God and Christ with a contrite and repentant heart, with sorrow for their sins, and honest admission that they are sinners worthy of Hell. The man who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner" is the one whose sins were forgiven. But the man who did not acknowledge his sins and his sinfulness was not forgiven. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THOSE SINS WERE NOT PAID FOR AT THE CROSS.

Why do you put a twist on what is plainly stated in Scripture? The sins of the whole world means exactly that, and nothing else. No fancy theological interpretation is required. Even a child understands that the whole world means all of humanity.

 

[Grandpa]

You have made this so clear and I keep waiting for a response on of your points.

The default is always you believe in universalism, I find it interesting that this is a very well known rebuttal that is utilized by those that believe in limited atonement, but the scriptures themselves which clearly state Jesus took on the sins of the whole world are never really dealt with.

Jesus did take on the sins of the whole world, of those who believe in Him.

Otherwise they are condemned for their sins.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

But ppl don't reach out to receive this gift. I know, I know, you are now thinking that 'God does not create and save robots'. We're not talking about robots, but those who are spiritually dead.

Those who are "spiritually" dead still have their five senses and can still reason within themselves. They can hear the word of God, they can become fully persuaded, i.e. believe that what they have heard is truth and make a decision to turn from their evil ways and trust God for their salvation.

When someone has a heart attack and dies, to remain consistent within the confines of your theology, the nurses would rush in, followed by the doctor, and he would start yelling "Get up! I said, get up!!" Those who choose of their own volition to come back to life live, and those who refuse to do so, remain dead. But within the confines of our theology, the nurses would rush in and start CPR, followed by the doctor coming in and having them administer the necessary drugs to stimulate the heart. Did the person receive CPR? Yes. And I am well aware that this analogy falls woefully short, as mnay more die after receiving CPR than those who survive. But the point I am making is that God has to quicken those who are dead in sins to life BEFORE they can respond.

You are relating actual physical dead with "spiritual" death . . . Christ came to make available the new birth which quickens one and makes them alive. The new birth, that new creation in us is created when we believe in Jesus Christ. The process is set forth clearly - In whom you alsotrusted, 1) after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise . . . . AFTER hearing, AFTER believing, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, i.e. born again - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . . .

When I gave you the analogy of Ezekiel 37, you said that ppl can hear, see, &c. But that's espousing mental assent. God, and only God, can quicken the dead spirit to life.

Yes, you gave me the analogy of "dry bones" . . . that is not an analogy of the new birth . . . that is speaking of the resurrection - clearly stating "I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves".