The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[SovereignGrace]

reason: the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic

Let's see, first off we have two options in front of us: either to believe in Jesus Christ unto eternal life or reject Jesus Christ and remain in condemnation and wrath. Now if we use our reason in making that choice are we using our reason to get into heaven? or are we obeying God's plan of salvation? And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. . . There's two words there that have to do with "reason" - understanding and know. God didn't create mankind to be ignorant. The word of God opens ears to hear, eyes to see; it is sharper than any two edged sword - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God -

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and every one that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1

IOW, mental assent. Man can reason himself to heaven. God does not have to raise him to life, he can reason himself from death unto life. Who needs to be spiritually resurrected?

Born of God, IOW, God alone. Begotten of Him? God alone does this. It is only after God does this can a man repent and believe.

 

[trofimus]

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Eph 1:14

 

[Snoozy]

The writer of Hebrews writes things in ways of proving a point, or points, though, the likelihood of them happening are not a possibility. Now, if you hold to eternal security, you know Hebrews 6:4-6 does not mean that ppl can throw away their salvation and return to the land of the lost. As the writer said in 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. It is a way to get ppl to examine and re-examine their salvation, their walk with God. Its not to get them to question their salvation, but to Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.[2 Peter 1:10]

Now onto your verse in Hebrews 10:29...

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

First off, this is applicable to believers only. The lost are not sanctified, only the saved are.


The writer went on to say in verse 30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” It says we know Him. We know what happens to those who practice continual sinning, and those who die eternally lost. That is why when we sin, we repent of it and move on. It says it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. He is encouraging ppl to make their salvation as sure as they can. In verse 26 he told them that those who go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Yet, in 1 John 3, John wrote the one who practices sin is of the devil.[1 John 3:8a] The saved sin, but they don't practice sin, practice sinning, continue sinning.

To make a long story short, he closes with But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.[vs 39] So, that verse[29] is used in a way to stir ppl's faith up, to get them to examine their walk with God, to live a life worthy of the gospel.

i like the way u explain it. and i agree with it

but u used words like "make salvation as sure as they can" but how can they? if they are already predetermined to either obey or not obey.
its hard for me to see this not as fatalism where everything is already done beforehand.

even this message that im writing God is just pulling strings to make me write it now. isnt that what everything is predetermined means?

i believe predetermination only occurs some places, God predestines some things, but not all. if He did predestine all there would be no erason for Him to be angry at people, only at Himself for predestining it.

 

[trofimus]

i like the way u explain it. and i agree with it

but u used words like "make salvation as sure as they can" but how can they? if they are already predetermined to either obey or not obey.
its hard for me to see this not as fatalism where everything is already done beforehand.

even this message that im writing God is just pulling strings to make me write it now. isnt that what everything is predetermined means?

i believe predetermination only occurs some places, God predestines some things, but not all. if He did predestine all there would be no erason for Him to be angry at people, only at Himself for predestining it.

If you are predermined to die in a sea, you are also predetermined to get to the sea etc.

If you are predetermined to be saved, you are also predetermined to do what is needed to be saved, like making your salvation certain and fast.

 

[SovereignGrace]

i like the way u explain it. and i agree with it

but u used words like "make salvation as sure as they can" but how can they? if they are already predetermined to either obey or not obey.
its hard for me to see this not as fatalism where everything is already done beforehand.

even this message that im writing God is just pulling strings to make me write it now. isnt that what everything is predetermined means?

i believe predetermination only occurs some places, God predestines some things, but not all. if He did predestine all there would be no erason for Him to be angry at people, only at Himself for predestining it.

We are told to work out are own salvation with fear and trembling. How do we do this? It is the Spirit of God working within us. That is in Philippians 1, iirc.

Predestination deals with man's salvation, not with every choice he makes. Ppl choose what to wear, eat, places they go, &c.

 

[Snoozy]

Predestination deals with man's salvation, not with every choice he makes. Ppl choose what to wear, eat, places they go, &c.

ok. then its fine. that makes a lot more sense

 

[Snoozy]

on biblehub a commentary on ezekiel 18:23 by john gill he says:

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God,.... Perish by sword, famine, or pestilence, or go into captivity; this, though the Lord's will and work, yet is his strange work; mercy is his delight. This is to be understood not absolutely; for the Lord does take pleasure in these things, as they fulfil his word, secure the honour of his truth and holiness, and glorify his justice, and especially when they are the means of reclaiming men from the evil of their ways; but comparatively, as follows:and not that he should return from his ways, and live? that is, it is more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins, and forsake his vicious course of life, and enjoy good things, than to go on in his sins, and bring ruin on himself, here and hereafter."

isnt this completely contrary to what God says in ezekiel when gill says that he does take pleasure in it?
could someone explain this contradiction. if its more pleaasing to God that a man shuld repent of his sins, why dont he give them repentance?

i tried to look for answer from john gill i think hes a calvinist but im not that good with computers

 

[preacher4truth]

on biblehub a commentary on ezekiel 18:23 by john gill he says:

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God,.... Perish by sword, famine, or pestilence, or go into captivity; this, though the Lord's will and work, yet is his strange work; mercy is his delight. This is to be understood not absolutely; for the Lord does take pleasure in these things, as they fulfil his word, secure the honour of his truth and holiness, and glorify his justice, and especially when they are the means of reclaiming men from the evil of their ways; but comparatively, as follows:and not that he should return from his ways, and live? that is, it is more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins, and forsake his vicious course of life, and enjoy good things, than to go on in his sins, and bring ruin on himself, here and hereafter."

isnt this completely contrary to what God says in ezekiel when gill says that he does take pleasure in it?
could someone explain this contradiction. if its more pleaasing to God that a man shuld repent of his sins, why dont he give them repentance?

i tried to look for answer from john gill i think hes a calvinist but im not that good with computers

You view so many things as a contradiction, and unfortunately have made a premature and cursory conclusion about two differing theological disciplines. You are not grasping what is being taught, and are casting off the teaching prior to thorough comprehension.

There is a difference between a contradiction and a contradistinction. There is also the need for critical thinking skills which develop over time and in much study.

 

[trofimus]

if its more pleaasing to God that a man shuld repent of his sins, why dont he give them repentance?

The same question as "if God wills everybody to be saved, why...."

And the answer is also the same - there are two kinds of wills/pleasures.

The first one, emerging from our nature (in the case of God its love, goodness, mercy etc) and the next one, taking all circumstances in consideration.

 

[Snoozy]

The same question as "if God wills everybody to be saved, why...."

And the answer is also the same - there are two kinds of wills/pleasures.

The first one, emerging from our nature (in the case of God its love, goodness, mercy etc) and the next one, taking all circumstances in consideration.

but hey maybe the easier answer is:
because God gave us a choice. He wants all to be saved but not all will.

easier answer in my opinion. no need to make up two kinds of wills thats nowhere metnioned

why is that simple easy plain answer from the bible considered anathema?
its sos imple. anyone comes to that conclusion by just reading the bible from genesis to revelation. thats why u guys are so heavily outnumbered in christianity. smaller smaller numbers

 

[Snoozy]

You view so many things as a contradiction, and unfortunately have made a premature and cursory conclusion about two differing theological disciplines. You are not grasping what is being taught, and are casting off the teaching prior to thorough comprehension.

There is a difference between a contradiction and a contradistinction. There is also the need for critical thinking skills which develop over time and in much study.

thats a lot of stuff. i just like to keep it simple.
how do u guys go soul-winning? i hope u use simpler language then.

 

[trofimus]

but hey maybe the easier answer is:
because God gave us a choice. He wants all to be saved but not all will.

easier answer in my opinion. no need to make up two kinds of wills thats nowhere metnioned

It does not have to be mentioned anywhere, because its reality of our daily lifes.

A pupil does not want to go to school. But he will go, because he wants to get a formal education.

Two wills. You can invent any example you wish, because it exists every minute of your life. Its not any abstract theological concept.

 

[SovereignGrace]

but hey maybe the easier answer is:
because God gave us a choice. He wants all to be saved but not all will.

easier answer in my opinion. no need to make up two kinds of wills thats nowhere metnioned

why is that simple easy plain answer from the bible considered anathema?
its sos imple. anyone comes to that conclusion by just reading the bible from genesis to revelation. thats why u guys are so heavily outnumbered in christianity. smaller smaller numbers

The choice is seen in that men love darkness more than they do Light.

 

[preacher4truth]

thats a lot of stuff. i just like to keep it simple.
how do u guys go soul-winning? i hope u use simpler language then.

Now you are comparing apples and oranges, conflating differing topics.

Even so, here is my take on preaching the Gospel:

2 Timothy 2:8-10;

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul was thoroughly convinced that God's elect are out there; Acts 18:9-10, thus he preached and spoke often of all his converts as being chosen prior to the foundation of the world, for no reason in themselves, but only according to the purpose of God. This truth is found throughout Scripture.

 

[Snoozy]

The choice is seen in that men love darkness more than they do Light.

yes people usually choose wrong. i think this is becasue of the sinful nature.

like what does a regular person wanna do? go to church or go to a ballgame?

 

[preacher4truth]

yes people usually choose wrong. i think this is becasue of the sinful nature.

like what does a regular person wanna do? go to church or go to a ballgame?

After some of the preaching I've heard, I'd rather go to a ballgame.

Who is BecaSue? She sounds like a nice girl.

 

[Snoozy]

Now you are comparing apples and oranges, conflating differing topics.

Even so, here is my take on preaching the gospel:

2 Timothy 2:8-10;

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul was thoroughly convinced that God's elect are out there; Acts 18:9-10, thus he preached and spoke often of all his converts as being chosen prior to the foundation of the world, for no reason in themselves, but only according to the purpose of God. This truth is found throughout Scripture.

yes i agree there are elect.
but that scripture in timothy says "they may also".

 

[preacher4truth]

yes i agree there are elect.
but that scripture in timothy says "they may also".

In addition to the rest who are saved and elect.

Gill: that they may also obtain; as well as himself, and other chosen vessels of salvation, who were called by grace already; for the apostle is speaking of such of the elect, who were, as yet, in a state of nature:

 

[SovereignGrace]

yes people usually choose wrong. i think this is becasue of the sinful nature.

like what does a regular person wanna do? go to church or go to a ballgame?

In Romans 5, Apostle Paul compares/contrasts men in the flesh(the lost) with men in the Spirit(the saved). The lost person is in the flesh and can not please God, and is, in fact, not subject to His laws, and indeed can not be subject unto them.

Where the disagreement(s) start and end is how do they get from not being able to please Him to how they can. We say it starts and stops with God, the other side says man.

You decide.

 

[garee]

I really love the man made doctrines that rob God of His glory.

Does God save men against their will?

By creating giving life to a new will.... yes.

He gives them a new desire as he works in them to both will and do His good pleasure.A new source of faith that comes from hearing His voice by which they can believe.

Like he informed the disciples when they asked what work could work do to please God .He does all the work or he does none. If he has begun the good work he will finish it to the end.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Formally the only source of faith possible to see the supernatural spirit world which the scriptures call "no faith" were the imaginations of their own heart. It was not a law of faith as we have as Christians. But was the philosophies of men making their best guesses and playing who is the greatest. .

Free will to a new creature takes us back to the garden to eat the spiritual food the disciples knew not of... to do the will of the Creator . God did not desire they learn by experience what it meant "you shall surely die" when they did the good pleasure of the father of lies..they did.

So then its not against their will but with their will in accordance with His whose name is Emanauel. By and through His same spirit of faith we believe and therefore speak.

2Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

He is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases.

Does the Calvinist ever come under conviction about his sin?

If God is working in any man to both will and do His good purpose he will turn the person when the Spirit of Christ that dwells in him reminds of him of the things he has taught us. In that way no man is self taught

I would think many people to include dead Calvin have been taught the kind of things that can turn a person to look outside of their own selves.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1Jo 1:8

If he does not do the first work first turning a person there will be no repentance needed to comfort oneself. As always he does the first work or no man will come when they are heavenly burdened.

Given what Calvinism teaches today even John Calvin would reject it.

So then its each person’s rendition of what they think he taught? It would seem you are placing yourself in his place?

The hardest people to win to Christ are the ones who are most religious.

Luke 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

One was a Calvinist the other was a whosoever will.

Religion is simply a belief system .Satan is very religious

Scripture informs us their must by heresies as persons opinions given among us. It is God who makes us differ from one another. As in what do we have that we have not been freely given, and if we have why would we boast as if we have not?

Its not flesh and blood that we do wrestle against as if we were to now each other after the flesh .

We all have a private interpretation of what we think he is teaching us in His interpretation the Bible . Like fingerprints one differs from another. It’s His approval we are to seek after.

Looking at the parable you offered. Did not Calvin oppose the Catholic Pharisees as the one that does the will of God? Was the Pope justified as the... whosoever will?