The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Laish]

Hi Nehemiah6,

The text you provided does not prove your point:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

This is just a very quick cursory answer as Im about to get my dinner

As Timothy says here we pray for 'All people' (2:1), so who are these 'all' people? its not just one group it is people from all walks of life not just those in authority (2:1-2). So when reading verses 1 and 2 we can see it is people of all stature.

So without even going any further in the text, we can see that Paul here in verses 1 thru to 15 is talking about prayer, intercession for all people,

regarding 'desire' (v4) all men to be saved. This is in contrast to the tendency of the false teacher who were narrow as in some form of law keeping (1:7-11). Paul was countering these 'exclusive' teachings of the law brigade.

Obviously 'all' cannot mean all will be saved as that would be universalism. Whether you hold an Arminian position or a Reformed position, this passage declares that the proclamation of the gospel is a free and universal call to 'all'. That God 'desires' shows His goodwill.

This passage on its own will never ever be a proof for Arminianism or Reformed position. We need to take the whole counsel of God into consideration. One of Paul's chief concerns and we can read this in nearly all his writings is the 'wall of hostility; being torn between Jew and Gentile.. 'all' people are now called not just by Ethnicity or by Law keeping. In our times we are de-sensitized of the real shock that now gentiles are ingrafted into the covenant people. 'All' people, not just an ethnic or law keeping people.

Anyhow, time for dinner

Ok now a big question.
What’s for dinner .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Magenta]

I think it quite contradictory that those who mock the idea of God requiring something from man in order to be saved, turn around and say they affirm the NEED for repentance and belief unto salvation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You've yet to present even one properly and contextually exegeted Scripture to prove God wants all men saved.

All you have done is make a false accusation (once again). Why could you not actually prove that I had taken that Scripture out of context and improperly exegeted it? Because you could not do so in good conscience. If you can, do it.

... you resort to name calling and saying that Calvinist's are lost (Reformed)

This is TOTAL NONSENSE. I have never said that Calvinists or Reformed are "lost". I have said that they hold to false doctrines. There are many genuinely saved Christians who hold to false doctrines. So once again, provide evidence that I have ever said they are lost. As to "name calling" that is your specialty not mine.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hi Nehemiah6, The text you provided does not prove your point:

Here we go. Blatant denial of what is plainly stated in Scripture.

As Timothy says here we pray for 'All people' (2:1), so who are these 'all' people?

Let's stop right there. The Greek word which the KJB translates correctly as "men" means "men" not people, and as Strong's notes "one of the human race" (meaning mankind).

Strong's Concordance

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind​

Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.

its not just one group it is people from all walks of life not just those in authority (2:1-2). So when reading verses 1 and 2 we can see it is people of all stature.

So now you are doing exactly what I pointed out -- calling "all mankind" "all walks of life". But what Paul stated was firstly "all men", and then he could have said "including kings and all those in authority" (but that is implied in the sentence construction). The context is clear that the focus is on ALL MEN (verses 1, 4, and 6), and that should also include those who are in authority. But you are simply dodging the context.

regarding 'desire' (v4) all men to be saved. This is in contrast to the tendency of the false teacher who were narrow as in some form of law keeping (1:7-11). Paul was countering these 'exclusive' teachings of the law brigade.

This is just eisegesis, since the plain meaning is the plain meaning, and you are simply overlaying it with an idea which is not even there. So you really don't want to acknowledge the plain meaning of Scripture when it does not suit you. And since I quoted Acts 17:30, it totally destroys your interpretation.

Obviously 'all' cannot mean all will be saved as that would be universalism.

Since the verse does not say "all will be saved" but "all men TO BE saved" once again you are mishandling Scripture to make it sound like universalism. But the meaning is very clear when you remove your Calvinistic spectacles. That verse says that God desires all men to be saved, but in order to be saved we know that God has set down two conditions -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30). So why did you deliberately misinterpret this verse?

 

[phil36]

Here we go. Blatant denial of what is plainly stated in Scripture.

Let's stop right there. The Greek word which the KJB translates correctly as "men" means "men" not people, and as Strong's notes "one of the human race" (meaning mankind).

Strong's Concordance

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind​

Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.

Hi Nehemiah6,

I agree with King Jimmy - All men, is the same as all people. The text does not just say Anthropus, it says pantas anthropous. All people.. all mankind. Not just the narrow ethnic jews.

The gospel now incorporates 'all' people. I agree the focus is all men, the gospel is not just for ethnic jews. This is why it is important to have in mind all of scripture when looking at any particular text (that would be good exegesis).

And yes I agree with Act 17:30, so your point is mute. All men everywhere are commanded to repent..Amen!

And Lastly I never said the text said 'all will be saved', I said it does not mean that so your point there is, well, kind of pointless.

You haven't even engaged with what 1 Timothy is about, little alone this section.. Good exegesis has in mind not just one verse, but the paragraph, the chapter, the preceding and proceding chapters and also the whole book, then the context within all of scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

You haven't even engaged with what 1 Timothy is about, little alone this section.. Good exegesis has in mind not just one verse, but the paragraph, the chapter, the preceding and proceding chapters and also the whole book, then the context within all of scripture.

"That's too much work, I'll just go with tradition and Finney on this! Therefore, you're WRONG buddy!!!!"

 

[Iconoclast]

Nehemiah6

This is a very apt description of those who cling to the man-made doctrines of Calvinism, which actually came from a Catholic bishop -- Augustine.

My friend, the teaching comes from Jesus and the Apostles .Those who we call Calvinists follow the believing Church in simply recognizing the scriptures teaching these things.
Augustine or Calvin did not write scripture...they did read it however.

These men are not here today. they lived and served God in their day. We are here with the same scriptures to consider.
If you could offer up 5 or 10 of your best objections to God's eternal purpose in grace saving a multitude In saving Union with His Son., we will help you with them if we can.

 

[Iconoclast]

thanks to everyone for answering my quesitons but my mind is made up on this subject and it will never ever change. im just writing this to save u guys typing time to try to convince me.

i believe both arminianism and calvinism are false.

have a good and blessed day people

Your statement as written is a statement of unbelief. You are saying that The Holy Spirit cannot grant you truth that you do not currently possess?

 

[Snoozy]

Your statement as written is a statement of unbelief. You are saying that The Holy Spirit cannot grant you truth that you do not currently possess?

im saying that i already looked into this debate enough to see the contradictions. so no need to waste more time on it. maybe it was predestined this way?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Blinded by indoctrination. Why does not God reach down and first give all men the ability to love God then? You can't see your contradiction.

No I am not blinded at all. I can see clear enough to see you going into my burn pile.

Chalk up another log for that burn pile.

Adios senor.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Don't you just love the spin(s) people can put on Scripture to avoid Sovereign election, particular redemption, and make man God, and God man?

Hey, man is spiritually dead. But that's no problem a'tall. They can reason themselves through those pearly gates.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Clavin would reject what modern Calvinism teaches.

Well, I reject Clavin's teachings, too. By the way, who is Clavin? Cliff Clavin from Cheers? Norm is has a much more solid doctrine.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok now a big question.
What’s for dinner .
Blessings
Bill

Well, lemme see if I can figure out what's he having for dinner.

First off, seeing he is British, tea is the drink. Seeing he is reformed, I figure he's a sot, so I will say he will have his tea with a spot(spot to reformed British folk means half of a fifth of liquor) of liquor. Now, if he is a reformed Baptist, it will be half a fifth, but if he's a Presbyterian, it'll be the whole bottle. Oh, and with a spritz of lemon juice for taste. Don't want to affect the taste of the tea, you know.

Then with him having that avatar, that makes me think he's charismatic in his beliefs as well.

So, the meat of choice will be cow's tongue. I figure he will have a light salad, possibly a baked potato, and a cup of jello. The jello will have some cup up fruit in it with the other half of liquor(if he's a reformed Baptist, he will use the other half that he used in his tea, if he's Presbyterian, he'll open a whole other bottle) mixed in it, too.

Then he will have rum cake for dessert.

Then he'll wear an ice pack and sunglasses to bed.

Nighty-night Brother.

 

[SovereignGrace]

hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

how is this possible in calvinism? if Jesus only died for elect. how can u trod something that u never had.
same with 26verse

The writer of Hebrews writes things in ways of proving a point, or points, though, the likelihood of them happening are not a possibility. Now, if you hold to eternal security, you know Hebrews 6:4-6 does not mean that ppl can throw away their salvation and return to the land of the lost. As the writer said in 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. It is a way to get ppl to examine and re-examine their salvation, their walk with God. Its not to get them to question their salvation, but to Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.[2 Peter 1:10]

Now onto your verse in Hebrews 10:29...

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

First off, this is applicable to believers only. The lost are not sanctified, only the saved are.


The writer went on to say in verse 30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” It says we know Him. We know what happens to those who practice continual sinning, and those who die eternally lost. That is why when we sin, we repent of it and move on. It says it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. He is encouraging ppl to make their salvation as sure as they can. In verse 26 he told them that those who go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Yet, in 1 John 3, John wrote the one who practices sin is of the devil.[1 John 3:8a] The saved sin, but they don't practice sin, practice sinning, continue sinning.

To make a long story short, he closes with But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.[vs 39] So, that verse[29] is used in a way to stir ppl's faith up, to get them to examine their walk with God, to live a life worthy of the gospel.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Hey, man is spiritually dead. But that's no problem a'tall. They can reason themselves through those pearly gates.

reason: the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic

Let's see, first off we have two options in front of us: either to believe in Jesus Christ unto eternal life or reject Jesus Christ and remain in condemnation and wrath. Now if we use our reason in making that choice are we using our reason to get into heaven? or are we obeying God's plan of salvation? And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. . . There's two words there that have to do with "reason" - understanding and know. God didn't create mankind to be ignorant. The word of God opens ears to hear, eyes to see; it is sharper than any two edged sword - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God -

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and every one that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1

 

[Johnny_B]

Hi Nehemiah6,

The text you provided does not prove your point:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

This is just a very quick cursory answer as Im about to get my dinner

As Timothy says here we pray for 'All people' (2:1), so who are these 'all' people? its not just one group it is people from all walks of life not just those in authority (2:1-2). So when reading verses 1 and 2 we can see it is people of all stature.

So without even going any further in the text, we can see that Paul here in verses 1 thru to 15 is talking about prayer, intercession for all people,

regarding 'desire' (v4) all men to be saved. This is in contrast to the tendency of the false teacher who were narrow as in some form of law keeping (1:7-11). Paul was countering these 'exclusive' teachings of the law brigade.

Obviously 'all' cannot mean all will be saved as that would be universalism. Whether you hold an Arminian position or a Reformed position, this passage declares that the proclamation of the gospel is a free and universal call to 'all'. That God 'desires' shows His goodwill.

This passage on its own will never ever be a proof for Arminianism or Reformed position. We need to take the whole counsel of God into consideration. One of Paul's chief concerns and we can read this in nearly all his writings is the 'wall of hostility; being torn between Jew and Gentile.. 'all' people are now called not just by Ethnicity or by Law keeping. In our times we are de-sensitized of the real shock that now gentiles are ingrafted into the covenant people. 'All' people, not just an ethnic or law keeping people.

Anyhow, time for dinner

My brother from another mother, Phil great explaination of the context of what Paul is saying in I Timothy 2. It is amazing how those that believe that Christ died for the sins of all men or the sins of the whole world, place God's will or good plesure over a desire or wish that He has. He desires/wishes that all men be saved or is wanting that none should perish, in I Timothy 2:3-4 and II Peter 3:9.

I Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

A desire or wish is nice, but it is not what the Father will's or what is His good pleasure, which He accomplishes.

Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”.

Ephesians 1:5-4, 8-12, “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,....8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.”

It is the Father's good pleasure to give the sheep the kingdom whom Jesus laid down His life for and it is not His desire or wish for them to be saved, it is His purpose and He accomplishes His purpose. Since all are not called by His election it limits the atonement to those that He calls to Himself. Only those that He opens thier hearts to see the kingdom of God, causing them to be born again, because it is His purpose not His desire or wish.

What I am apreciating by those that believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world or all the sins of the world, are not saying that the Father is just in sending people to hell for sins that Jesus paid for on the cross. Which is the proof that the atonement is limited to those that it is His purpose to save.

 

[Johnny_B]

I will ask my open question to those that believe that Christ died for all the sins of the world or the sins of all men. To please answer this question, IF Christ's atonement covers the sins of the whole world or of all men, is the Father just or unjust for sending people to hell for sins that Christ paid for in His atonement?

Please do not say that Chirst died for all sins except for the sin of unbelief, because if that were true some of the disciples would not be saved and neither would we because we did not believe before the Spirit gave us life to believe and the disciples were in unbelief after the resurrection.

Mark 16:14 “Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.”

Unbelief is not an unforgivable sin, if it were none would be saved and believeing that Jesus rose from the died is required for salvation.

Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, is the Father just or unjust for sending people to hell for sins that Christ paid for in His atoning work, if indeed Christ paid for the sins of all men or the world in His atoning work?

My answer is God is not unjust, because Jesus did not die for the sins of all men or the whole world, only those that He chose in Christ before the foundations of the world, those He foreknew and loved before the foundations of the world and it is His purpose to save those that Chirst died for and the Father accomplishes His purpose and His will according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[valiant]

I think it quite contradictory that those who mock the idea of God requiring something from man in order to be saved, turn around and say they affirm the NEED for repentance and belief unto salvation.

But repentance and belief are gifts of God (Acts 5.31). No natural man would repent otherwise. He is dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[valiant]

Here we go. Let's stop right there. The Greek word which the KJB translates correctly as "men" means "men" not people,

So it excludes women?

and as Strong's notes "one of the human race" (meaning mankind).

So it does mean people?

Strong's Concordance

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind​

Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.

Yes, people. Not just literally men.

So now you are doing exactly what I pointed out -- calling "all mankind" "all walks of life". But what Paul stated was firstly "all men", and then he could have said "including kings and all those in authority" (but that is implied in the sentence construction).

But is does NOT say 'including'. Nor is that implied in the context.
'I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all who are in authority -' In other words he has in mind all types of men.

And the same is true therefore in vv 4 and 6.

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your post but again it is both lacking and very ignorant. take for example:
Here you show absolute and sheer ignorance.. Total depravity teaches man is totally unable or has no ability to save himself (inability).

Oh Phil...you and Calvinism completely ignore the undeniable truth that Adam received the knowledge of good and evil. Adam freely chose evil and sinned against God. When confronted by the word of God man must now choose to forsake evil and receive good who is Christ. God is merciful and compassionate toward His creation man. Calvinism as it is taught today makes God to be cold and distant not loving very near to hear the sinners plea.

Lets have a look at the rest of your post:

Again, blanket subjective assertions.. But lets take a look at the start of your post:
First of the book you have provided does not prove your subjective - proofless statements. the book is basically a polemic against Calvinism. It does not answer your still unproven hypothesis that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching.

I am endeavoring to be generous to Calvin. As you and the other Calvinists have presented him one would surmise that he was not better than the Pope he hated and fought against.

As with all works, they get updated as time goes on. To use that Calvin updated his works is a very weak argument on your part..AND still has no bearing on your claim that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching.

I hope that Calvin would reject modern Calvinism or he was a man of little compassion for the lost.

So back to your original statement Roger. We are all still awaiting for your proof that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching. Remember Roger it is not very christian to be dishonest.

The aspersions you cast against me are a reflection of you. The reformation was not about Calvinism. If being reformed is to be Calvinist then I find it no more genuine that to say that being Christian is to be Roman Catholic.

Why do you Calvinists not express any compassion for lost sinners and for saints of God? Where do I find the fruit of the Holy Spirit among the Calvinists? Gal 5:22-23.

I'm trying to be nice but when Calvinists filter everything they say through a lens of accusatory and demeaning accusations I'm far from impressed that they are reflecting the goodness of Christ in God. As we mature we are to become more Christ like not more critical and obnoxious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger