The Immaculate Conception Error
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'I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' (psal 51.5)'The wicked are estranged from the womb (why? because they have inherited sin). They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies'. (psalm 58.3)
There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.
Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.
Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
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Where have you been? I've been quoting Romans chapter 5 for sometime now.
By Adam's transgression the human race was made sinners. That's because Adam passed to his descendants a life that had sinned (and therefore a slave to sin) and a life indwelt with the love of self (iniquity). So Adam's transgression, i.e., the breaking of a known command, caused the human race to become sinners.
So a sinner isn't the same as a transgressor. Transgression makes you a guilty sinner. Transgression involves volition - the known breaking of a law or a command.
That's why those who have not reached the age of accountability can't be charged with transgression.
By Adam's transgression the human race was made sinners. That's because Adam passed to his descendants a life that had sinned (and therefore a slave to sin) and a life indwelt with the love of self (iniquity). So Adam's transgression, i.e., the breaking of a known command, caused the human race to become sinners.
So a sinner isn't the same as a transgressor. Transgression makes you a guilty sinner. Transgression involves volition - the known breaking of a law or a command.
That's why those who have not reached the age of accountability can't be charged with transgression.
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Babies are sinners. Babies sin. In what sense? They are selfish at no fault of their own. The reason they sin is because they were born slaves to indwelling sin (self-love).
Are they guilty sinners? No!
Why not? Because transgression involves volition. Transgression involves the ability to reason and comprehend God's law either directly or indirectly. Directly through the law or indirectly, through conscience.
Are they guilty sinners? No!
Why not? Because transgression involves volition. Transgression involves the ability to reason and comprehend God's law either directly or indirectly. Directly through the law or indirectly, through conscience.
Ps 51.5 does not address an infant, but the parents.
Pa 58.3 is hyperbole, did you ever see an infant speak lies?
However, one may go astray soon after birth, but not because they inherited sin.
Could you theologically explain just how sin can be inherited?
You are also incorrectly paraphrasing Ps 14 and Paul's quoting of it in Rom 3.
Pa 58.3 is hyperbole, did you ever see an infant speak lies?
However, one may go astray soon after birth, but not because they inherited sin.
Could you theologically explain just how sin can be inherited?
You are also incorrectly paraphrasing Ps 14 and Paul's quoting of it in Rom 3.
I'm not quite sure you correctly understand Rom 5:12 but you are very close. The text actually shows that man does NOT inherit either the sin of Adam nor his guilt.
What it states is that the condemnation of death resulted because of Adam's sin, and that all men sinned BECAUSE of the condlemnation of death to Adam. Man is born mortal. It is our nature that we inherit by birth. We are born in a state of death. The sting of death is sin I Coe 15:56. We sin as a result of our mortal nature. Scripture never states man has a sin nature. Christ did not raise a sin nature when He arose from the dead. He raised our mortal natures to immortality. I Cor 15:52-54.
Consequently, man is born mortal, not a sinner. Sin is an act, not a organic element. You cannot inherit an act of sin, nor, the far worse statement of the Original Sin theory, is that God actually imputes sin into man. It is an anomaly of the false teaching that God imposes death, imputes sin, and then needs to correct the situation by supposedly pouring all of His wrath against what He did upon Christ.
What it states is that the condemnation of death resulted because of Adam's sin, and that all men sinned BECAUSE of the condlemnation of death to Adam. Man is born mortal. It is our nature that we inherit by birth. We are born in a state of death. The sting of death is sin I Coe 15:56. We sin as a result of our mortal nature. Scripture never states man has a sin nature. Christ did not raise a sin nature when He arose from the dead. He raised our mortal natures to immortality. I Cor 15:52-54.
Consequently, man is born mortal, not a sinner. Sin is an act, not a organic element. You cannot inherit an act of sin, nor, the far worse statement of the Original Sin theory, is that God actually imputes sin into man. It is an anomaly of the false teaching that God imposes death, imputes sin, and then needs to correct the situation by supposedly pouring all of His wrath against what He did upon Christ.
M
"Made sinners" what do you think that means? now im not defending any "theory" but the evident Word of God which clearly describes that we where made sinners because of Adams disobedience ...as Paul continues to teach throughout this epistle ...that the purpose of the law was not to justify but to show us this very fact...that we all have sin in the flesh.
If you think that God actually made sinners you are far from scripture.
God permitted Satan to take man captive through death because that death was through Adam"s nature. God already had the plan of Christ to redeem mankind. God in his wisdom would have Christ be born of a women, man, in order to obtain the same nature as man. Having that very same nature, without any exceptions, except He did not sin, Christ would save mankind from death, our primary problem due to the fall as well as the secondary one, that of sin.
Death and sin are tools of the devil, not God. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8. I might also add that Rom 11:32 states the same thing. God allowed disobedience to all. Why? So He could have mercy upon all men.
The Theory of Original Sin does no even address the primary problem of the fall, namely the condemnation of death, the power of Satan, not God.
Paul does not ever teach anything related to the theory of Original Sin. From Rom 3: 24-25. Rom 5:6-10, From 5:12-18. I Cor 15 the entire chapter, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.
There just is nothing scriptural regarding the theory of Original Sin. God is NOT the author of death. God does not impute sin or guilt. Man is NOT born a sinner. Theologicllly the theory denies the scriptural definition of the Incarnaion.
That is quite obvious in this thread because most argument are all trying to save Jesus from sin. With the correct understanding one does not face that dilemma.
God permitted Satan to take man captive through death because that death was through Adam"s nature. God already had the plan of Christ to redeem mankind. God in his wisdom would have Christ be born of a women, man, in order to obtain the same nature as man. Having that very same nature, without any exceptions, except He did not sin, Christ would save mankind from death, our primary problem due to the fall as well as the secondary one, that of sin.
Death and sin are tools of the devil, not God. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8. I might also add that Rom 11:32 states the same thing. God allowed disobedience to all. Why? So He could have mercy upon all men.
The Theory of Original Sin does no even address the primary problem of the fall, namely the condemnation of death, the power of Satan, not God.
Paul does not ever teach anything related to the theory of Original Sin. From Rom 3: 24-25. Rom 5:6-10, From 5:12-18. I Cor 15 the entire chapter, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.
There just is nothing scriptural regarding the theory of Original Sin. God is NOT the author of death. God does not impute sin or guilt. Man is NOT born a sinner. Theologicllly the theory denies the scriptural definition of the Incarnaion.
That is quite obvious in this thread because most argument are all trying to save Jesus from sin. With the correct understanding one does not face that dilemma.
I understand what you are saying. However, original sin is just part of the problem. Even if you debunk the concept of Original sin, Catholics believe that Mary never willfully sinned in her entire life.
Then there are others on this thread who do not believe in the IC of Mary, but they believe that Jesus himself was born with the fallen nature of Adam, or a nature indwelt with iniquity.
I was just trying to read through and learn somethings, but this thread is turning out to be a mess already.
Then there are others on this thread who do not believe in the IC of Mary, but they believe that Jesus himself was born with the fallen nature of Adam, or a nature indwelt with iniquity.
I was just trying to read through and learn somethings, but this thread is turning out to be a mess already.
Let's clarify some terms:
a] Transgression: Breaking a known law or command. This is an act, physically or mentally (such as coveting). This makes us guilty before God's law.
b] Iniquity: Not an act, but a condition.
We do not inherit Adam's guilt (transgression), but we do inherit Adam's condition.
If I put arsenic in the mouth of a river then everyone who drinks from that river is affected. My action damages everyone.
When Adam sinned he ruined humanity. It became "bent-to-self" (selfish) and this introduce mortality.
We are the multiplication of Adam's life after the fall. We share his ruined humanity indwelt with our love of self (sin). That doesn't make us guilty, it makes us condemned because "flesh and blood cannot enter heaven."
We are sinners by birth because our mind is controlled by our love of self (indwelling sin) and we go astray at birth.
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Rom 5:18 "So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men..."
Notice that Adam's transgression condemned the human race within Him. The text doesn't say that Adam's transgression made all men guilty before God's law.
Then what brings guilt?
verse 20 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..."
The law was given not so we could try to earn salvation and thus be saved. The law was given to turn sinners into transgressors. The law was given to make matters worse so that we might see our need of Christ and be justified by faith.
Notice that Adam's transgression condemned the human race within Him. The text doesn't say that Adam's transgression made all men guilty before God's law.
Then what brings guilt?
verse 20 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..."
The law was given not so we could try to earn salvation and thus be saved. The law was given to turn sinners into transgressors. The law was given to make matters worse so that we might see our need of Christ and be justified by faith.
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M
Who said God made sinners ...THE BIBLE says in evident words that we where "made sinners" because of Adam disobedience ... Now either you believe the bible or you don't? Its sounds like you and some others here don't believe the bible.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I suspect that the idea that Mary never sinned is based in the IC concept because both are a necessary means to clear Mary and Jesus from Original Sin.
When the fall is correctly understood outside of the Original Sin theory, then one does not have a problem with Christ being born of Mary and assuming our mortal nature. No man is born a sinner or with sin. It order to be a sinner one must sin.
When the fall is correctly understood outside of the Original Sin theory, then one does not have a problem with Christ being born of Mary and assuming our mortal nature. No man is born a sinner or with sin. It order to be a sinner one must sin.