The Immaculate Conception Error

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M

Mitspa

Guest
#121
#121
Cassian said:
We became sinners, not because God imposed(imputed) sin to us, nor because we inherited sin and guilt from Adam, ONLY because we inherit a mortal nature from Adam. We sin because we are mortal. And that righteousness of Christ made all men alive again as well. From Adam (death/mortality) to Christ (life). Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, all state that the equation is always death to life. It never speaks of Adam's sin or our supposedly inherited sin and guilt, or even death imposed by God. Christ overcame death the power of Satan, Heb 2:14-17.
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Dude your just playing games with words... the bible says what it says in clear terms and you reject the bible ...its really that simple... sin in the flesh is in every man because of ADAM...that's what the bible clearly says and im not sure what your trying to say but its just silly.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#122
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
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#122
Cassian said:
Part of the fallacy of Original Sin is that if man actually had a sin nature, then sin no longer is a choice. God could not demand that we obey Him.
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Look, I agree with parts of what you say, but here you've really overstepped all Biblical commonsense.


The converted Paul stated the following:

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Who is the "we"? Who is Paul writing to? The Christian Church in Rome. Paul is saying that we believers no that the law is spiritual, but we are unspiritual, sold as a slave to our love of self. Then Paul explains:

15 I do not understand what I do. For the good I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.....17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


 
R

Roberth

Banned
#123
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
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#123
Mitspa said:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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Adam's sin brought condemnation to all men, not because all men transgressed as Adam did, but because all men share his life indwelt with iniquity.

Because we are born without God's Spirit and because our minds and natures are in harmony, we were made sinners. So essentially I agree with you....
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#124
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#124
Cassian said:
No and it is scripturally impossible for man to have a sin nature.
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What???? :rolleyes:


Back to Romans 7

22 For in my inner being (my spirit) I delight in God's law...

You see God's Spirit resides in the believer's spirit. Our spirit is not a disembodied ghost (as some think), but the place in our deepest mind where God's Spirit dwells. Because He dwells in us our minds delight in God's agape love.

23 but I see another law (force) at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind (my will) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Paul is saying that his converted mind and its desires to live a life of agape are no match to "the law of sin" in the members of his body. Our will power cannot defeat "the law of sin"!

What is this law of sin or sin dwelling in me? We call it the sinful nature, but what is is?

It is agape, but bent back to self. It's a u-turn agape or self-love. Hence the law of sin is our love of self.


 
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R

Roberth

Banned
#125
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
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#125
Roberth said:
Paul is saying that his converted mind and its desires to live a life of agape are no match to "the law of sin" in the members of his body. Our will power cannot defeat "the law of sin"!
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Can anything defeat the law of sin (our love of self)?

Yes, but not in order to gain salvation. We are already saved in Christ Jesus. So anything we experience is to God's glory.

How can the law of sin (our self love) be defeated?

Rom 8:3 For what the law (the law of my mind, my will power) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (our love of self), God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned (defeated) sin in the flesh

Notice that Christ defeated sin, where? "in the flesh"! That means that "the law of the Spirit" (the power of God's Spirit) defeated "the law of sin" in Christ.

What then does "likeness of flesh of sin" mean?

It doesn't mean unlikeness. Then what?

You must remember that Christ is first and foremost God. God is immortal! He is Divine, but upon His Deity Christ took our fallen flesh indwelt by our love of self. Therefore our fallen flesh wasn't His by native right. He assumed it, for a season, in order to redeem mankind legally from under law to under grace. This is what the likeness of flesh of sin means.....
 
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C

Cassian

Senior Member
#126
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
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#126
Mitspa said:
Dude your just playing games with words... the bible says what it says in clear terms and you reject the bible ...its really that simple... sin in the flesh is in every man because of ADAM...that's what the bible clearly says and im not sure what your trying to say but its just silly.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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You have been unwittingly indoctrinated by the false theory of Original Sin. Man DOES NOT HAVE SIN in him. Sin is NOT an organic element. Sin is an act against God, God's law of love.
Words have meaning and incorrect understanding of words leads to false doctrines and beliefs.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#127
#127
Roberth said:


Adam's sin brought condemnation to all men, not because all men transgressed as Adam did, but because all men share his life indwelt with iniquity.

Because we are born without God's Spirit and because our minds and natures are in harmony, we were made sinners. So essentially I agree with you....
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Yes the bible calls someone with sin in the flesh a sinner...that's why your idea that Jesus had sin in the flesh is so unbiblical and wrong.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#128
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#128
Cassian said:
Man DOES NOT HAVE SIN in him. Sin is NOT an organic element..
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"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you." Ez 28:15
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#129
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
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#129
Mitspa said:
Yes the bible calls someone with sin in the flesh a sinner...
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Yes, with some clarification.

1] All men are born without God's Spirit dwelling in their spirit.

2] The mind and "sin in the flesh" of the carnal man are in harmony. What the flesh wants, the mind wants too....

Christ, as the son of man, was born spiritually alive. This means that His mind was never in harmony with sin in the flesh. Why? Because "the law of the Spirit" defeated "the law of sin" in the humanity of Christ from birth to death. Christ lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. Hence He fulfilled God's law and He can therefore be our righteousness through faith.
 
C

Cassian

Senior Member
#130
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#130
Roberth said:
Look, I agree with parts of what you say, but here you've really overstepped all Biblical commonsense.


The converted Paul stated the following:

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Who is the "we"? Who is Paul writing to? The Christian Church in Rome. Paul is saying that we believers no that the law is spiritual, but we are unspiritual, sold as a slave to our love of self. Then Paul explains:

15 I do not understand what I do. For the good I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.....17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
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First, you need to understand all that Paul says, not just in that verse/context.
Paul never states that man is sin or has a sin nature. He does say we are mortal, or in your citation, a sinful nature. We sin because we are mortal. We sin easily because of the imbalance of our passions. It is this imbalance that he is referring to in the context of your citation. Is it actual sin or the propensity to sin. Again, sin is not an organic element that actually becomes or is part of us. Evil thoughts are a sin, thus one can say indwells us. We are not evil thoughts. We can murder, but we are not murder. See the difference?

If you interpret everything according to the bias of the Original Sin theory understanding scripture and what it actually means becomes very difficult which has been profoundly shown in this thread.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#131
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
#131
Roberth said:
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you." Ez 28:15
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Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#132
#132
Cassian said:
First, you need to understand all that Paul says, not just in that verse/context.
Paul never states that man is sin or has a sin nature. He does say we are mortal, or in your citation, a sinful nature. We sin because we are mortal. We sin easily because of the imbalance of our passions. It is this imbalance that he is referring to in the context of your citation. Is it actual sin or the propensity to sin. Again, sin is not an organic element that actually becomes or is part of us. Evil thoughts are a sin, thus one can say indwells us. We are not evil thoughts. We can murder, but we are not murder. See the difference?

If you interpret everything according to the bias of the Original Sin theory understanding scripture and what it actually means becomes very difficult which has been profoundly shown in this thread.
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No ..Paul uses the word "sin" and "sinner" ..many times and in many ways to describe this issue.... Now sin brings death and that's part of the truth as well...but your just being dishonest and deceitful ...also known as "sinful" which brings death
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#133
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
#133
Cassian said:
Paul never states that man....has a sin nature.
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What is the nothing good that lives in me that Paul writes of? It can't be something good....

Good to God is agape. Good to Lucifer is the love of self.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#134
#134
Roberth said:


Yes, with some clarification.

1] All men are born without God's Spirit dwelling in their spirit.

2] The mind and "sin in the flesh" of the carnal man are in harmony. What the flesh wants, the mind wants too....

Christ, as the son of man, was born spiritually alive. This means that His mind was never in harmony with sin in the flesh. Why? Because "the law of the Spirit" defeated "the law of sin" in the humanity of Christ from birth to death. Christ lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. Hence He fulfilled God's law and He can therefore be our righteousness through faith.
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Guy you just take parts of the truth and mix it all up into a lie.... Jesus did not have sin in the flesh...its that simple and no matter how much you try to use parts of the truth to cover that lie...its still a lie strait from hell.
 
C

Cassian

Senior Member
#135
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#135
Roberth said:


Adam's sin brought condemnation to all men, not because all men transgressed as Adam did, but because all men share his life indwelt with iniquity.
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Scripture never says this. We don't share a single thing with Adam, EXCEPT we inherited mortality, death. We are not born with sin, we are not born guilty of anything, we are not born with iniquity. We are born innocent but mortal.
Going back to the consequences of the false concept of Original Sin which you are still applying here, is that Christ would be born with iniquity if all men are born with iniquity. Christ assumed our mortal nature, not a sin nature, not iniquity, not sin. He became man as we are in every respect, yet did not sin. He cannot save us unless He has a nature as we have. We are consubstantial with Adam and Christ is consubstantial with us as human beings.

Because we are born without God's Spirit and because our minds and natures are in harmony, we were made sinners. So essentially I agree with you....
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 We are born without life, mortal. And we sin because we are mortal. It is the inherited mortality that has made us all sinners because unlike Christ we cannot not sin.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#136
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
#136
Mitspa said:
your just being dishonest and deceitful
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Well, I've accused you of things, Mitspa, but basically I cant' read your motive. The same is true of this guy....We don't know. So we all need to stop name calling.....Let's just debate truth. And yes, I'm talking to myself too.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#137
#137
Paul did not use the term "sin nature" he uses the term "sin in the flesh" .... "sin nature" is just a horrible translation based on some translators biblical ignorance.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#138
#138
Roberth said:
Well, I've accused you of things, Mitspa, but basically I cant' read your motive. The same is true of this guy....We don't know. So we all need to stop name calling.....Let's just debate truth. And yes, I'm talking to myself too.
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Yes people who lie are deceitful and dishonest..... sinners
 
C

Cassian

Senior Member
#139
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#139
Roberth said:


What???? :rolleyes:


Back to Romans 7

22 For in my inner being (my spirit) I delight in God's law...

You see God's Spirit resides in the believer's spirit. Our spirit is not a disembodied ghost (as some think), but the place in our deepest mind where God's Spirit dwells. Because He dwells in us our minds delight in God's agape love.

23 but I see another law (force) at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind (my will) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Paul is saying that his converted mind and its desires to live a life of agape are no match to "the law of sin" in the members of his body. Our will power cannot defeat "the law of sin"!

What is this law of sin or sin dwelling in me? We call it the sinful nature, but what is is?

It is agape, but bent back to self. It's a u-turn agape or self-love. Hence the law of sin is our love of self.
Click to expand...
The law of sin is death. Death is what is contained in us, in our nature. Because we sin we can say we have a sinful nature, or a nature/mortal nature, that sins. Your concept of self love is acceptable, I understand what you are saying.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#140
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
#140
Mitspa said:
esus did not have sin in the flesh...
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Sin in the flesh is not an action....Sin in the flesh has to do with a condition. Sin is the flesh refers to our love of self. Christ denied self. How could He do that if He wasn't tempted by our love of self.

In fact, just prior to His crucifixion, Christ was tempted to go against His Father's will. His Father's will was to save the human race, but for a moment Christ was tempted to love Himself and skip the cross. But He didn't. He denied self....

See Matt 26:39
 
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