The Letter to the Romans...

[Hoffco]

That didn't last long. . .you've now joined the august ranks of Martin Luther and John MacArthur.

Hi Elen, my friend. I think?? at times, I think, the opposite.??? I think both Luther and MacArthur both meet the conditions of salvation of Rom.2:6-7 GOD, "will render to each one according to his deeds. Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality;" BUT, both have made the stupid statement. "salvation is by faith alone" , They will suffer "lose" for that statement.at the judgment seat of Christ. Love to all. Hoffco.

 

[Elin]

Hi Elen, my friend. I think?? at times, I think, the opposite.??? I think both Luther and MacArthur both meet the conditions of salvation of Rom.2:6-7 GOD, "will render to each one according to his deeds. Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality;" BUT, both have made the stupid statement. "salvation is by faith alone" , They will suffer "lose" for that statement.at the judgment seat of Christ. Love to all. Hoffco.

Yes, we're friends, even though I am not friends with a lot of your teaching, but some of it I am.

 

[Hepzibah]

To Hepzibah. you are so confused, because you read into the Bible lies which are not their. It is the goodness of God that leads us to repent; Rom.2:4 The judgement of God only hardens our hearts to God. Rom.2:24,"...God gave them up to uncleanness" But in reality, it is only the direct POWER of God that save the sinner; This power is what causes the "circumcision" of heart in Rom2:29. Both Jew and Gentile must have a circumcised heart to be born of God. The natural revelation of God is for all to see,1:20, but when sinners turn their minds away from the truth, they are hardened by God. The Gospel .by itself will never save a soul, the power of God must save the sinner. Love to all, Hoffco

I don't understand which verses you are diagreeing with?

 

[Hepzibah]

Originally Posted by Yahshua

Unlike those who are found righteous in their obedience to God through the power of grace by faith in Christ (which is “the gospel message”), the unrighteous suppress this truth and worship idols instead of giving God glory. But they have *no excuse* for their unrighteousness because God makes his divine nature known by all that he has made.



Romans 1:24-25

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ​

What Paul's Saying...

So the unrighteous are punished for being *disobedient* (i.e. knowing the truth but not acting on it). They’re enslaved by the lusts of their flesh.

Alternative

Those who are not holy, through obedience by the power of grace by faith in Jesus Christ ie those who do not think that Christ can save them from sin, and so continue in it, sinning, repenting, and sinning again, and who are not walking in the truth of entire sanctification and therefore suppressing it, as they lead others to doubt as they do, are not worshipping God in His rightful place, as Saviour from sin, and are therefore putting their own efforts above Him which makes their works an idol, so God stops giving them nudges and convictions and leaves them to their fate which is darkness because they have have removed Christ from the throne in their hearts, and by falling from their first love, and putting self back on there, are worshipping the creature ie themselves. They have not gone on serving in the Spirit alone.

 

[Hepzibah]

Originally Posted by Yahshua

So the unrighteous are punished for being *disobedient* (i.e. knowing the truth but not acting on it). They’re enslaved by the lusts of their flesh.

Romans 1:26-32

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then goes into details of the punishment on The Unrighteous (i.e. those who are disobedient to God, knowing the truth but still choosing not to act on it and instead teaching others not to as well). God gives them over to “filthy passions” and “debased minds”...to drown in; to be consumed by them.

Alternative

I would like to use the AV here:

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain [8] God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I think that a truer meaning is given in the AV. To begin, the word lust in the Greek has been wrongly interpreted in most translations, to be sexual lust when in fact it just means any strongly felt desire - for anything. Unfortunately it is being wrongly translated.

even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly

Now I know that the following is going to be controversial and probably no-one will agree with me due to accepting the traditional way of thinking for so long, but this is how I see it as fitting into the rest of the letter.

I do not agree that Paul is talking about sex here. Is that the natural use of women!?! Is that what women have been created for!?! Well sadly, some men do think this way.

No, woman was created to be an equal partner to man, her use if it can be put that way, is to balance out the nature of man for she is one half of the human population after all, and what is suitable for men is not necessarily suitable for women. God's order is that the two sexes should share in everything that God wills for us.

Unfortunately since the fall, man has dominated woman and this is against God's will. It is also seen in the church. Women have been barred from translating and interpreting scriptures and it is only very recently that women have been allowed to 'do' theology. So we have a Bible that is coming from only one perspective and that is, the male one. One example is that sexual sin is seen from a male viewpoint as being a huge issue, but that is generally only where men are concerned.

In fact for women, their biggest sin is passivity. Sexual lust is just not something they suffer from in the main.

So we have Paul talking here about the biggest problem for mankind and especially for those in the church. However, the traditional interpretation of Paul is saying that male homosexuality is the biggest issue and the number one problem for mankind with no mention of lesbians. Is this what happens commonly when men do not acknowledge their maker or is this a biased interpretaion of what the translators, all men, think is the worst that men can fall into?? Really ?? Worse than murder?? We also have to take into acount that scripture speaks much more strongly and colourfully than the way it is today.

My understanding is that Paul is naming the biggest problem in the church not the outside world and this has happened when men put themselves on the throne of their heart and remove Christ, and thus showing the evidence for it, in that men prefer to join with men in running the church and denying women the role that Christ gave them to be equal in all things and needed by men moreover otherwise the churcgh cannot function as it should.

The result of this is that they fall into very backsliding sinners.

 

[CeileDe]

Alternative

I would like to use the AV here:



I think that a truer meaning is given in the AV. To begin, the word lust in the Greek has been wrongly interpreted in most translations, to be sexual lust when in fact it just means any strongly felt desire - for anything. Unfortunately it is being wrongly translated.



Now I know that the following is going to be controversial and probably no-one will agree with me due to accepting the traditional way of thinking for so long, but this is how I see it as fitting into the rest of the letter.

I do not agree that Paul is talking about sex here. Is that the natural use of women!?! Is that what women have been created for!?! Well sadly, some men do think this way.

No, woman was created to be an equal partner to man, her use if it can be put that way, is to balance out the nature of man for she is one half of the human population after all, and what is suitable for men is not necessarily suitable for women. God's order is that the two sexes should share in everything that God wills for us.

Unfortunately since the fall, man has dominated woman and this is against God's will. It is also seen in the church. Women have been barred from translating and interpreting scriptures and it is only very recently that women have been allowed to 'do' theology. So we have a Bible that is coming from only one perspective and that is, the male one. One example is that sexual sin is seen from a male viewpoint as being a huge issue, but that is generally only where men are concerned.

In fact for women, their biggest sin is passivity. Sexual lust is just not something they suffer from in the main.

So we have Paul talking here about the biggest problem for mankind and especially for those in the church. However, the traditional interpretation of Paul is saying that male homosexuality is the biggest issue and the number one problem for mankind with no mention of lesbians. Is this what happens commonly when men do not acknowledge their maker or is this a biased interpretaion of what the translators, all men, think is the worst that men can fall into?? Really ?? Worse than murder?? We also have to take into acount that scripture speaks much more strongly and colourfully than the way it is today.

My understanding is that Paul is naming the biggest problem in the church not the outside world and this has happened when men put themselves on the throne of their heart and remove Christ, and thus showing the evidence for it, in that men prefer to join with men in running the church and denying women the role that Christ gave them to be equal in all things and needed by men moreover otherwise the churcgh cannot function as it should.

The result of this is that they fall into very backsliding sinners.

All I have to say is WOW. Talk about an complete mistranslation of scripture.

 

[Hoffco]

to CeileDe, Thanks for your reproof to Hepzibah, He doesn't seem to care for the inspiration of God over HIS
WORD. It seem,,to him,that God is as dumb as rocks.! Hepzibah, this is all I will say, your allegory of Rom. 1:18-32 is soooo far off the wall, it is insane.!! Please give up your way of twisting the WORD of GOD study the Bible, contextually, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and you will learn the truth. Love Ptr. Doug

 

[CeileDe]

[SUP] AV Version

24[/SUP] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:



So how did they Dishonour their own bodies? It says between themselves.


[SUP]25[/SUP] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[SUP]26[/SUP] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:



What is natural? God made man and woman to be together; this is natural. Woman with Woman is unnatural.



[SUP]27[/SUP] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And here it says LikeWise. Meriam-Webster says likewise is

: in the same way
: in addition
—used in informal speech to say that you share the feelings that someone else has just expressed



Therefore the men were doing the same thing as the women. It speaks of lust toward one another, men with men. This also means women with women.

So in my conclusion the AV version in 1611 reads the same as the NASB, KJV, NKJV, ESV etc…..

 

[Hepzibah]

We are hampered here by the translations that are being used. I am using the surrounding chapters for understanding. Paul is preaching to the church.

 

[CeileDe]

We are hampered here by the translations that are being used. I am using the surrounding chapters for understanding. Paul is preaching to the church.

No one is disagreeing with who Paul is speaking to. We are disagreeing with your interpretation. You said you use the AV 1611 translation and I gave you the AV 1611 in my last post. So what translation are you using?

 

[Jeff_56]

it appears (from the recent post ) she is reacting to (real and perceived) man's domination over women, and trying to find / use GOD'S WORD to
'empower'? women against man's domination ....

instead of understanding GOD'S WORD.


the 2 entirely different trains of thought cannot be reconciled.

GOD'S WORD stands alone. society (and flesh, and the carnal) is opposed to GOD.

footnote: many visitors to this forum are opposed to GOD'S WORD also. it is very surprising how
many have never even read it.

 

[Hoffco]

It is quite obvious to all of you ,that I am not a traditional Fundamental, or Reformed theologian; So, you are going to have to stretch your thinking out of your box,to learn the truth which the Bible teaches us. The best example of my theology is John MacArthur, John Piper and R C Sproual less the error of Justification by faith alone, and (infant baptism,which I can allow ,but can not defend from the Bible). The correct teaching of justification is by grace, faith and works. There is a very limited truth of "faith only", ( which is trusting in Jesus blood alone for our standing before God. It is more Biblical to say as the Bible says: We are justified by Grace and faith with out works, because James 2:24 says "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" and Rom.2:13 says, "(For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, But the doers of the law will be justified;" and Rom.3:31"...through faith...we establish the law." and 1Cor.7:19 "Circumcision if nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is what matters." SO, Are we justified by faith only? yes and no; Yes, when I accept Jesus' blood as my only perfect righteousness before My trice holy God. But, No, when I read of how God has saved me, by Grace, through faith, unto works of good deeds,Eph.2:8-10. Therefore , salvation is NOT by faith only. Salvation, as all the Bible teaches is by; GRACE , faith and works.! As Psalm one teaches. , as Gal.6:7-10 teaches, as Rom.26-11 teaches.!! Faith that works is the only faith that saves.!! Love Ptr. Doug

 

[Hoffco]

Thanks again for CeileDa and ti Jeff_56 for defending the clear words of Rom.118-32 Hoffco, Ptr. Doug

 

[Hoffco]

This dialog is very important before we leave Rom. chs. 1and2. You all need to do a word study on "called to be saints" The word "call" has at least three meaning in the Bible. 1. to call someone by their name 2. ones vocation 3. For God's powerfully making us alive to Him, look at 1Cor.7:20 for 2&3 definitions of "call". "Let each of you remain in the same calling (vocation) in which he was called,(regenerated,saved)" So, in Rom.1:6-7, "the called of Jesus Christ" "called to be saints" is saying God made us alive, God gave us new birth, new eternal life inside us, we are made partakers of God's nature, eternal life. God's "seed" is in us and the nature can not sin. 1Jh. 3:9, "Whoever has been, is, born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." Love to all, Hoffco

 

[psalm6819]

I will make another attempt to get a few followers of the TRUTH, every just one.! Please read Yahshua's old post, as I quoted it in post 1304 and my comments. If you agree with my words, then state it and we will restart this study based upon the TRUTH of God's SOVEREIGN control of salvation of his elect ones. Paul is very clear that God's purpose is to make us holy before He forgives our sins in Justification; So Sanctification of the Spirit,God, comes before Justification from God. The saved Jews and Gentiles of Rom chaps 1:1-17 & in ch. 2:10-29 are in stark contrast to the lost Gentiles of ch.1:18-32 and the lost Jews of ch.2:1-29. If no one will acknowledge the true bases of salvation,which is the sanctifying work of the Spirit, Of the New birth of the Spirit in Rom. chs,1&2, I will not go on to Justification in Ch. 3. Love to all, Hoffco , Pastor Doug.

Make us holy before He forgives our sins??? What??????

 

[Hoffco]

My apology to Hepzibah, I failed to notice your red colored name, My old age is creeping up on me. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

YES, exactly as the Bible teaches, God MAKES us holy before He imputes Jesus rightness to our account. How can a DEAD man, believe .savingly, on Jesus? He can not, "see" or "enter" the Kingdom unless he is Born of God.!! Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

to psalm1819, New Birth is before Faith, What could be so clear, from Jh.3:1-21 ? And from Rom,8;29-30 ? Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Repentance, faith and holiness can not come from a DEAD soul, we must be born of God. The requirements for salvation can not come from a DEAD Soul. !! Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Jesus taught,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" Jh.6:44 "draw" is a word of FORCE, POWER Love Hoffco