the lie that Jesus ministry was law

seed_time_harvest · Oct 23, 2016

No I'm not saying that,but I am saying your efforts of the flesh didn't justify you before GOD.

After salvation the person should present their bodies a living sacrifice so that they may prove what Is that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.
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GOD looks at the heart,man looks at the outward appearances.
Do you see what I mean now with the scriptures
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

This Is what Paul Is talking about AFTER salvation.
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

GOD Is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him In spirit and In TRUTH.HIS SPIRIT to our spirit,our spirit to HIS SPIRIT

I know you want to feel like It was all JESUS and I helped a little bit but understand what CHRIST Is the vine and we are the branches,means.

JaumeJ · Oct 23, 2016

I believe you should be praying about how you are interpreting God's Word.

Good night from here. May God bless you with understanding and love always.

Yahshua · Oct 23, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

"Without the vine" is a red herring because if you just established that he is the vine; the root and we are the branches, then of course without the vine no fruit can be produced no matter our efforts. However, let's assume we branches abide in the vine. Do vines produce fruit or do branches?

Grace777x70 · Oct 23, 2016

IMO - a branch "produces" no fruit...however a branch "bears" the fruit of the life ( sap) of the Vine that is in it. The "sap" being the life of Christ manifesting. Without Him we can do nothing.

Yahshua · Oct 23, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

An excerpt from, "The Rest of the Gospel: When the partial Gospel has worn you out” by Dan Stone.

Law and Grace are mortal enemies. Religion asserts, "No, they aren't mortal enemies. They can flow together, like the Missouri and Ohio rivers flow into the Mississippi, and they become the Mississippi." Every place I've ever been in organized religion, I've found that belief. But Paul was saying, "NO. They never flow together. They've always been mortal enemies. They will always be mortal enemies. You can never marry the two. And you have to make a choice, Galatians, are you going to live under law, or under grace?"

Paul wasn't saying that if they stepped back into the law, they wouldn't be saved anymore. But he was telling them, "If you go back to the law, you're giving up the way of grace. Now, let me tell you something about the way of the law, Galatians: you have to keep it all."

They couldn't just pick out the law they wanted to keep. That's what I used to do. I'd pick out those parts of Mosaic Law, Sermon on the Mount law, Baptist law, my personal law, and whatever other law I thought I could keep at least some of the time. I didn't see that law and grace are mortal enemies. I didn't see that you can't live under both.

It made sense to me to be religious. It made sense to be an external Christian, trying to keep an external set of rules. I couldn't do anything else, because I had always been an external person. So were you. We all grew up as external people, defining ourselves in relation to other persons, things, and events that told us who we were. That's why as new Christians we were so prone to asking external questions: "What should I do?"

There's no life in the law. The only thing the law tells you is what you ought to do, but can't do. It will never relinquish its demand that you ought to do it, because it's a divine ought-to; God gave it to Moses. We'll keep ourselves under that divine ought-to, and the condemnation and death ministers (2 Corinthians 3), until we learn to live from the Person who dwells within us. Because there's nothing in our flesh that wants to say, "I can't do it. I can't keep the law through my own effort." Everything in our flesh says, "I want to try to do it, and with God's help maybe I can do it."

Like my friend Burt Rosenburg says, everything in that program is designed for futility, frustration, and failure. But they don't tell you that up front, do they? When you sign up, no one makes this announcement:

WE'VE GOT A WONDERFUL PROGRAM HERE, THE END RESULT OF WHICH WILL BE FUTILITY, FRUSTRATION, AND FAILURE! WHEN YOU HAVE COMPLETED THE COURSE, WE WILL GIVE YOU A DIPLOMA, SAYING:

"CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE FAILED!"

I remember talking to a group and proclaiming, "We have succeeded! In what? In failing!" And everyone smiled. For we finally recognized that we had succeeded in what we were supposed to do, which was to fail. "Everyone is telling us that we failed in what we were supposed to succeed in. But the truth is we have succeeded in what we were supposed to fail in. Now, we can get on with it. We can get on with what is true life."

We usually quote Galatians 2:20 apart from its context. It immediately follows Paul's admonition to Peter concerning the law. When Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ," he was referring to his death to the law. Paul was saying, "The old me died on the cross with Christ, and when I died, I died to trying to keep the law. Trying to keep the law is living according to the flesh, with me and my efforts as my point of reference. I died to myself as my point of reference. Now, Christ in me is my point of reference. He is living His life through me."

As believers, we no longer live under the law, looking to it to tell us what to do and not do, then trying our best to do it. Instead, we live on the faith principle, the inner life principle, of who really is our life - Christ. We trust that He directs us, opens or closes doors for us, and speaks directly to us, giving us a message or whatever is needed for the occasion. We trust that He is living through us. We may not feel it at any given moment, but we live by faith that He is our life.

Mortal enemies?? No. With utmost love and respect to you but this is a bunch of hooey. Malarkey.

Can you share your definition of grace for me from the scriptures? I think that's the best place to start finding common ground.

Yahshua · Oct 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

If it's true that "without the vine we can do nothing" (as I also believe), then through the vine we can "do all things" (Phil 4:13) right?

Produce and bear are synonyms. A woman bears a child. A woman produces a child. The church is to produce fruit or it's hewn down. Why would christ hewn down trees for not producing if he's directly responsible for the product?

seed_time_harvest · Oct 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Exactly. ....

FreeNChrist · Oct 23, 2016

Yahshua said:

Sorry, but there is no common ground to be found. That's just the way it is.

Grace777x70 · Oct 23, 2016

Yahshua said:

Amen....Yes we can do all things through Christ. Thank God!...the main emphasis is "through Christ"...and not a product of ourselves - in the flesh.

A branch can only bear what the Vine gives - it does not produce it from it's own self-effort.

Just as Jesus said it is the Father that does His works in Me. So, we too live by Christ living and doing His good works through us. These are the true works of the Spirit. We are one in the spirit with Him. Without Christ we can do nothing.

There is a massive difference between doing things by our own self-effort or doing good works by the Spirit of God within us. We participate in them as being sons that are one with Christ. All good works that originate from the Spirit of God in us is really a manifestation of the life of Christ in us.

To people doing their own works of righteousness, this reality of Christ living through us is a stumbling block. Man looks at the outward appearance - God looks on the heart from where the "true works of God will originate".

Outwardly these "good works" can look the very same so only God knows where they came from and these will be revealed when we stand before the Lord. I don't think man can make a determination of the origin of them - only God can.

seed_time_harvest · Oct 23, 2016

Yahshua said:

You are giving the flesh too much credit.

Without the vine,you could do nothing.

Yahshua · Oct 23, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

Ok. Agreed. Can we stop removing the vine from the picture then? WITH the vine...WITH the vine, what does the branch do WITH the vine?

Yahshua · Oct 23, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

Question: Is this flesh that we have the same as Adam's?

OneFaith · Oct 23, 2016

followjesus said:

matthew 4: 17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

matthew 4:23 "Jesus went throughout Galilee, TEACHING in their synagogues, PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM, and healing every disease and sickness among the people"

john 1:17 "For THE LAW was given THROUGH MOSES; GRACE AND TRUTH came THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

matthew 5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM, and he began to TEACH THEM."

Just to make the point, because false ideas have put the theory that Jesus was teaching the mosaic law, therefore His teachings arent part of the true Gospel. believe the scripture.

exodus 20:13 "you shall not murder" ( the law through moses)

MATTHEW 5: 21-22 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ BUT I TELL YOU (the gospel through Jesus) that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subject to judgment...."

exodus 20:14 " you shall not commit adultery" ( the law through moses)

matthew 5:27-28 "“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ BUT I TELL YOU ( the gospel through Jesus) that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

deuteronomy 24:1 ""When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, ( the law through moses)

matthew 5: 31-32 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. ( the gospel through Jesus Christ)

numbers 30:2 "If a man makes a vow to the LORD, or takes an oath to bind himself with a binding obligation, he shall not violate his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. ( the law through moses)

matthew 5:33-35 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ BUT I TELL YOU, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool;"

deuteronomy 1921 ":Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." ( the law through moses)

matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. BUT I TELL YOU,( the gospel through Jesus Christ) do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, TURN TO THEM THE OTHER CHEEK also. "

Just a few examples, in order to omit the validity of Jesus ministry, things like the sermon on the mount or the countless parables and plain lessons taught by the Lord above all, there is a theory Jesus taught the mosaic law, therefore His words, teachings commands in the 4 gospels simply dont apply to His church, that was only for those present with Him, it was law, and therefore the gospel is only His death and resurrection. a theory that basically disregards Jesus ministry, and actually makes it a bad thing to be a " red letter believer" meaning you believe that Jesus gospel is the true and correect doctrine, of HIS CHURCH, HIS BODY, HIS BRIDE. clearly looking at just these few examples, no one should be able to hold to the idea that Jesus was teaching the law, simply because he is saying " you heard the law...it said this, BUT I TELL YOU this other thing. Jesus teachings are the foundation opf any correct doctrine and applies eternally to His people.

forgiveness ? matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." this is WHAT JESUS SAYS ABOUT FORGIVENESS.....he teaches it also in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (matthew 18:21-35 ) in fact the entire ministry of Jesus rests on this principle, which IS NOT LAW NOR DOES IT RESEMBLE LAW.

luke 6:37- 38 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

the Law teaches that we are judged according to strict written laws, by one another, we are condemned by 2 or three witnesses and stoned by the people of the community, forgiveness is not based on us forgiving others, but on sacrifice rather than Mercy. the law was Gods word given through a mediator Moses, the Gospel is Gods word given through the Only MEDIATOR Jesus, His Son. The law was given by Gods word to moses, then moses word to the people. he was its mediator. the gospel was given by Gods word through Jesus, the eternal mediator between God and man. there is nothing in scripture to even suggest omittals or devalue or de authorizing the gospel ministry opf Jesus Christ, that is outright herecy, whether we call it grace, new dispensations, whatever the reasoning its false, Jesus ministry is eternally valid and the authority over His body, bride, the Church belongs to Jesus.

false doctrines work hard to omit Jesus words, because Jesus words are salvation. Just as Gods word was Life in the garden. Dont be decieved by someone telling you Jesus gospel was him teaching law and therefore doesnt apply, its false. Jesus taught the kingdom of God, just like his apostles including paul. james, peter and john who said this

2 john 1:9 "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

Jesus taught the way of Life, dont let " grace" omit the truth.

First of all, wow. You put a lot of care and effort into that, and a lot of scripture. That warms my heart and makes me smile.

God only has one law- in the Old Testament it was done physically, and in the New Testament it does spiritually. Like you said, under Moses we could not physically commit murder, but under Christ if you hate someone, you are already guilty of murder, even if you don't murder them physically.

We are no longer under Moses and the old way (Romans 7:1-4), yet we still keep the same law of God spiritually while under Christ's authority. Christ now has all authority over God's people today (Matthew 28:18), and what He says is law. He commanded the apostles to write down and teach us what He commanded them to (the New Testament). They wrote it down, but it comes from Him, and is our law. I know that mostly when the law is mentioned it refers to the old Mossical law, I just want to point out that we are under New Testament law.

Bladerunner · Oct 23, 2016

followjesus said:

Hello "followJesus"

Jesus began His ministry shortly thereafter at approximately the age of thirty (Luke 3:23) or around 26 AD. At this time, the "Age of Law" was still in effect. Only after he died on the Cross, buried and was resurrected did the "age of Grace or Time of the Church" begin. Prior to 32 AD. he was preaching to the Jews and afterwards both.

Then I ask you,,, is not the Ten Commandments a good set of laws to go by? I think your spirit within you will disagree if you disagree with me. The Ten Commandments were the Master Laws of God. Not just a set of social, judicial or religious laws given to a people in order for them to rule themselves.

Think about it before you call the[ "Word of God" an inerrant divinely written and inspired works written 1500 to 2300 years ago by 44 different authors]..... Faulty ....just Think about it?.

seed_time_harvest · Oct 24, 2016

Yahshua said:

Philippines 2:13
King James Version(KJV)

13.)For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version(KJV)

8.)For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9.)Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10.)For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

jaybird88 · Oct 24, 2016

followjesus said:

the Law teaches that we are judged according to strict written laws, by one another, we are condemned by 2 or three witnesses and stoned by the people of the community, forgiveness is not based on us forgiving others, but on sacrifice rather than Mercy. the law was Gods word given through a mediator Moses, the Gospel is Gods word given through the Only MEDIATOR Jesus, His Son. The law was given by Gods word to moses, then moses word to the people. he was its mediator. the gospel was given by Gods word through Jesus, the eternal mediator between God and man. there is nothing in scripture to even suggest omittals or devalue or de authorizing the gospel ministry opf Jesus Christ, that is outright herecy, whether we call it grace, new dispensations, whatever the reasoning its false, Jesus ministry is eternally valid and the authority over His body, bride, the Church belongs to Jesus.

false doctrines work hard to omit Jesus words, because Jesus words are salvation. Just as Gods word was Life in the garden. Dont be decieved by someone telling you Jesus gospel was him teaching law and therefore doesnt apply, its false. Jesus taught the kingdom of God, just like his apostles including paul. james, peter and john who said this

2 john 1:9 "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

Jesus taught the way of Life, dont let " grace" omit the truth.

some say actions speak louder than words, the actions of Jesus, He obeyed the law.

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 24, 2016

Zmouth said:

It is impossible for God to lie or contradict Himself because He is perfect and God.... it will be out of His character and therefor impossible....

JaumeJ · Oct 24, 2016

When one is not certain of a point of Holy instruction in the Epistles do not go headlong into personal interpretations, rather go back to Paul's Teacher and ours, Jesus Christ. His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. He will bring joy to the understanding of all whotruly seek to understand the Godpel, His Godpel. It is the same as Paul teaches..............

FreeNChrist · Oct 24, 2016

JaumeJ said:

His yoke is easy and His burden light, because He has freed us from the burden of the yoke of slavery of the Law.....releasing us from its bondage. Thank you Jesus.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Gal 5:1

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.” Rom 7:6

eternally-gratefull · Oct 24, 2016

GandalfTheWhite said:

I agree he never changed his law.

it is as useless to make a person holy and righteous today as it was the day it was given (it demanded perfection, yet perfection could never be fulfilled except by Christ)

Jesus did not teach law. He taught fulfilment of the law. The people who did not understand the law could never make us right, aere the ones who crucified Christ, not the ones who understood grace.

the lie that Jesus ministry was law

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