The Order Of 7 Books In The Old Testament PROVE A Pre Trib. Rapture!

[PlainWord]

Plain, you still do not understand that there is a Dispensational distinction between the Church Age and the Time of Jacob's trouble??

In the Church Age every born again believer has Eternal Security.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble, no one has eternal security except the 144,000.

Therefore to force the Body of Christ into the time of Jacob's trouble is to cause the Bible to contradict.

You need to be dispensational Plain. You need to start rightly dividing the word of truth.

The time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. It is not for the Body of Christ.

You go ahead and apply man's doctrine to the Word and alter what Christ himself taught if you want. You do so at your own peril. I will stick to the Word as written. When you rightly divide, it is to be a straight line. You divide it like a jig saw puzzle piece just so you can have your Rapture fantasy.

As for the Body of Christ, it is ALL BELIEVERS, not just the Gentile church. The first to partake of the Body of Christ were His disciples - ALL of them Jews/Hebrew. Jesus was Jewish too!!

1 Cor 12:

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

You also keep forgetting the lesson of Romans 11:

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Keep the above in mind when the False Christ comes first and tries to deceive you into thinking he's here to Rapture you. Learn from the Great Multitude of Rev 7. They are hungry and thirsty - for Christ - something they shouldn't be in heaven. They are ashamed and crying because they were deceived. Compare to Isaiah 65. Don't be one of them Brother Chosen.

Also, you keep wanting to limit the Great Tribulation to Israel. The time of Jacob's trouble deals with the armies trying to defeat her. It is NOT limited to the incredible temptation of Satan. This test is for the whole world!!! See Rev 3:10.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Note this is a conditional promise. You have to be patient!!!Wait for the Real Christ and don't go out for the first Christ because he will be the false Christ.

The Rapture reverses the order of appearances between the two Christs - real and fake. Right now you have been deceived into thinking the real Christ comes first. This deception will be so strong that I doubt you will see through it when the time comes because you are predisposed to thinking the real Christ comes first. The false Christ will use your false beliefs against you my friend. Open your eyes before it's too late.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You go ahead and apply man's doctrine to the Word and alter what Christ himself taught if you want. You do so at your own peril. I will stick to the Word as written. When you rightly divide, it is to be a straight line. You divide it like a jig saw puzzle piece just so you can have your Rapture fantasy.

The Rapture (catching away) of the Body of Christ is to give the dead and living in Christ a new, glorified body and so that every believer in Jesus Christ can appear before the Judgemt Seat of Christ to receive their rewards for their service unto the Lord. The Rapture is a Bible Doctrine.

As for the Body of Christ, it is ALL BELIEVERS, not just the Gentile church. The first to partake of the Body of Christ were His disciples - ALL of them Jews/Hebrew. Jesus was Jewish too!!

Who said that the Body of Christ was just the Gentile church???

The Body of Christ consists of both saved Jews AND saved Gentiles (Gal. 3:28, Col. 3:11).

1 Cor 12:

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

You also keep forgetting the lesson of Romans 11:

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Keep the above in mind when the False Christ comes first and tries to deceive you into thinking he's here to Rapture you. Learn from the Great Multitude of Rev 7. They are hungry and thirsty - for Christ - something they shouldn't be in heaven. They are ashamed and crying because they were deceived. Compare to Isaiah 65. Don't be one of them Brother Chosen.

Plain, Jesus Christ is not coming to the Earth at the Rapture. At the Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds and WE are CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18). And at this very same time, we are given a new glorified body (1 Cor. 15:51-54) and we are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29, 1 John 3:2).

At the Second Coming and Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, Christ then comes back to the Earth and He steps foot on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). Therefore Plain, at the Rapture, Jesus does not come to the Earth. He only comes in the clouds, in the air, and we are caught up to meet Him in the air.

Only at the Second Coming and Advent, does the Lord Jesus Christ come to the Earth.

Also, you keep wanting to limit the Great Tribulation to Israel. The time of Jacob's trouble deals with the armies trying to defeat her. It is NOT limited to the incredible temptation of Satan. This test is for the whole world!!! See Rev 3:10.

Well Plain, the testing and trial is for the whole world but if you read Jeremiah 30, which is the context that details what the time of Jacob's trouble will be like and what it is for, then you'll also understand that it is to bring unbelieving Israel into correction. Read the whole passage of Jeremiah 30. And then you compare that passage to what our Lord Jesus Christ taught in the gospels about the time of Jacob's trouble. And they line up.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Note this is a conditional promise. You have to be patient!!!Wait for the Real Christ and don't go out for the first Christ because he will be the false Christ.

Plain; Christians won't be here on this earth when the antichrist shows up. So how can we Christians then be deceived, if we are not here on the Earth?

Here is another thing to consider Plain.


2 Thessalonians 2:7-12

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Quick question Plain, notice the passage that I highlighted (from verses 10 to 12). Is that section talking about Christians???


How could anyone who has any spiritual discernment read that passage and come to the conclusion that that section is referring to both saved and lost people? If it was referring to both saved and lost, it would make no sense.


Do you know why? Well because that section I highlighted is not referring to Christians. That portion of Scripture (from verse 10 to 12) is referring to lost people who rejected the Gospel. After they learned of the truth of the Gospel, they rejected it and therefore, they received not the love of the truth. That's why God sends them the strong delusion.


Seriously Plain, you cannot be a Bible believer and support the Post-trib. Rapture theory. Or the No-Trib. Rapture theory.

The Bible consistently teaches that there will be a catching away of the Body of Christ before the time of Jacob's trouble begins on the earth.

The Rapture reverses the order of appearances between the two Christs - real and fake. Right now you have been deceived into thinking the real Christ comes first. This deception will be so strong that I doubt you will see through it when the time comes because you are predisposed to thinking the real Christ comes first. The false Christ will use your false beliefs against you my friend. Open your eyes before it's too late.

No Plain, you have been deceived by the lie of the Post trib. Rapture theory. The Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture when it comes to the Body of Christ. The focus is on ISRAEL in the time of Jacob's trouble. It is NOT on the CHURCH.

 

[PlainWord]

The Rapture (catching away) of the Body of Christ is to give the dead and living in Christ a new, glorified body and so that every believer in Jesus Christ can appear before the Judgemt Seat of Christ to receive their rewards for their service unto the Lord. The Rapture is a Bible Doctrine.

The living are NOT given a new body. 1 Cor 15:51 is not part of any Rapture. It happens 1,000 years later. None of the Rapture tenants are in the Bible. No u-turn of Christ to heaven alone or with anyone, no transformation of living, no 2 separate returns in any passage discussed, etc.

Who said that the Body of Christ was just the Gentile church???

The Body of Christ consists of both saved Jews AND saved Gentiles (Gal. 3:28, Col. 3:11).

At least we agree on something. But there will be a lot of saved Jews during the Tribulation, 1/3 to be exact. They too are part of the Body of Christ. We are all gathered at His one and only return AFTER the Tribulation.

Plain, Jesus Christ is not coming to the Earth at the Rapture. At the Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds and WE are CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18). And at this very same time, we are given a new glorified body (1 Cor. 15:51-54) and we are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29, 1 John 3:2).

At the Second Coming and Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, Christ then comes back to the Earth and He steps foot on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). Therefore Plain, at the Rapture, Jesus does not come to the Earth. He only comes in the clouds, in the air, and we are caught up to meet Him in the air.

Only at the Second Coming and Advent, does the Lord Jesus Christ come to the Earth.

Conjecture and incorrect. Nothing says Jesus goes back to heaven after He arrives in the clouds. The logical conclusion is that we are gathered then return to earth with Him. Keep in mind, only a small remnant remains to be gathered. The vast majority of the Christian world is killed at the 6th trumpet and during the reign of Antichrist thus they are already in heaven.

Well Plain, the testing and trial is for the whole world but if you read Jeremiah 30, which is the context that details what the time of Jacob's trouble will be like and what it is for, then you'll also understand that it is to bring unbelieving Israel into correction. Read the whole passage of Jeremiah 30. And then you compare that passage to what our Lord Jesus Christ taught in the gospels about the time of Jacob's trouble. And they line up.

I agree with the purpose of Jacob's trouble in that it is to bring them back to God. This is done by threatening their very existence with armed invasion. But the testing that is for the whole world can't happen if 1/3 of the world leaves before the test, can it?

Plain; Christians won't be here on this earth when the antichrist shows up. So how can we Christians then be deceived, if we are not here on the Earth?

Oh, but they will be here, at the beginning. They are fooled by the antichrist. They are the Great Multitude of Rev 7. The A/C claims to have raptured them, thus the rest of the world then accepts him as Christ. Nothing says Christians are taken from the planet - NOTHING!! Not a single verse or hint supports this notion.

Quick question Plain, notice the passage that I highlighted (from verses 10 to 12). Is that section talking about Christians???

No, the highlighted portion is for unsaved. But pre-Trib Rapture folks are deceived as to the correct order but we know they go to heaven because they are the Great Multitude.

Seriously Plain, you cannot be a Bible believer and support the Post-trib. Rapture theory. Or the No-Trib. Rapture theory.

The Bible consistently teaches that there will be a catching away of the Body of Christ before the time of Jacob's trouble begins on the earth.

Dude, seriously? I've asked you 1,000 times to give me one verse that teaches anyone alive is taken to heaven or that Christ comes BEFORE the Tribulation and you can't do it. The best you can do is cherry pick verses out of context then marry them up to verses that are 1,000 years apart and then fill in the many gaps with your many dreams and wishes. Christmas is over. There is no Santa, no Easter Bunny and No Pre-Trib Rapture Return of the Lord.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Originally, the O.T. ended with Chronicles.

The original order of the N.T. was not what we have today either.

I think it went Gospels, Acts, the universal epsitles, then Paul's writings then Rev. Even Paul's writings were in a different order.

If you will notice, after the gospels and the acts, the rest are in size order. Largest being Romans and shortest Jude and of course the final book being Revelations.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The living are NOT given a new body. 1 Cor 15:51 is not part of any Rapture. It happens 1,000 years later. None of the Rapture tenants are in the Bible. No u-turn of Christ to heaven alone or with anyone, no transformation of living, no 2 separate returns in any passage discussed, etc.

Yes they are given a new body. Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21. They are given a new body at the Rapture.

Compare Scripture with Scripture.


And no, the rapture does not happen a thousand years later, that's heresy. The Rapture of the Body of Christ happens before the time of Jacob's trouble.

At least we agree on something. But there will be a lot of saved Jews during the Tribulation, 1/3 to be exact. They too are part of the Body of Christ. We are all gathered at His one and only return AFTER the Tribulation.

No, the Body of Christ will not be in the time of Jacob's trouble. The Body of Christ is up in Heaven before the antichrist is unleashed in Revelation 6:1-2.

There are already redeemed saints up in Heaven glorifying God in Rev. 5:8-12. That's the Body of Christ. And we know that the Judgment Seat has already taken place by Rev. 4:4 because the four and twenty elders are already crowned.

Conjecture and incorrect. Nothing says Jesus goes back to heaven after He arrives in the clouds. The logical conclusion is that we are gathered then return to earth with Him. Keep in mind, only a small remnant remains to be gathered. The vast majority of the Christian world is killed at the 6th trumpet and during the reign of Antichrist thus they are already in heaven.

There are no Christians in the time of Jacob's trouble. Only tribulation saints.

Jesus comes and catches His bride away in the Rapture BEFORE the time of Jacob's trouble.

I agree with the purpose of Jacob's trouble in that it is to bring them back to God. This is done by threatening their very existence with armed invasion. But the testing that is for the whole world can't happen if 1/3 of the world leaves before the test, can it?

It is the Body of Christ that is taken off of the Earth.

Not the lost world.

Oh, but they will be here, at the beginning. They are fooled by the antichrist. They are the Great Multitude of Rev 7. The A/C claims to have raptured them, thus the rest of the world then accepts him as Christ. Nothing says Christians are taken from the planet - NOTHING!! Not a single verse or hint supports this notion.

No they won't be here. They will already be gone. All Christians will be in Heaven appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ as the time of Jacob's trouble is taking place down on the Earth.


And no, the Christians do not make up the Great Multitude of Rev. 7. It is the Tribulation saints which make up the Great Multitude in Revelation 7. The tribulation saints have washed (works) their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

The multitude that is described in Heaven in Revelation 5:8-12 is the Body of Christ because it is those redeemed saints which have had their sins washed from them in the blood of Jesus Christ. And it is Jesus Christ who does the washing. We do not have any part in it (Faith and NO WORKS). There is a clear distinction there.

In the Church Age, salvation is by Faith and no works. In the time of Jacob's trouble, Salvation is by Faith AND Works.

That's why the multitude is described as having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The tribulation saints do the washing (works).

You need to get that distinction.

No, the highlighted portion is for unsaved. But pre-Trib Rapture folks are deceived as to the correct order but we know they go to heaven because they are the Great Multitude.

The Body of Christ (Christians) are the multitude mentioned in Revelation 5:8-12.

The tribulation saints are the multitude mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.

Dude, seriously? I've asked you 1,000 times to give me one verse that teaches anyone alive is taken to heaven or that Christ comes BEFORE the Tribulation and you can't do it. The best you can do is cherry pick verses out of context then marry them up to verses that are 1,000 years apart and then fill in the many gaps with your many dreams and wishes. Christmas is over. There is no Santa, no Easter Bunny and No Pre-Trib Rapture Return of the Lord.

No "Dude" I have repeatedly answered your question. But as blind and deceived as you are, you continue to reject the truth and light of Scripture that is given to you.

And just because you want to stay on this Earth to show how tough you are is not going to change the fact that when the trumpet sounds at the Last Trump, you are going up whether you like it or not. That is if you are saved. Because only SAVED, born again Christians will partake in the Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

Will this nonsense posted by people with absolutely no Biblical education or knowledge never end???

The whole thesis is totally erroneous, as many have pointed out. The Hebrew Bible is in a completely different order.

So that proves the thesis wrong, which also spreads a huge cloud of doubt over the rest of the posts by the OP, esp. this nonsense rapture stuff!

Just think about it. By agreeing with the OP, you are agreeing with someone who posted something by a false Bible teacher. He believes the internet preachers rather than taking the time to study the Greek and Hebrew and learning what the Bible really says, instead of fear-mongering lying teachers!

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matt 7:15

 

[PlainWord]

Yes they are given a new body. Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21. They are given a new body at the Rapture. And no, the rapture does not happen a thousand years later, that's heresy.

I never said the Rapture happens 1,000 years later. I am saying that it happens when the Lord return AFTER the Tribulation. However, He gathers the remnant (His Elect) in the clouds alive. Nothing in 1 Thes 4 says the living are changed. My view is those gathered remain on earth with Christ and are seen with Him on Mt. Zion, Rev 14:1.

I said 1 Cor 15:51 happens 1,000 years later after the millennium. First the context is clear from the passage. Second, it says that the last enemy Christ defeats is death. If He changes us immediate upon His return then death would be the first enemy He defeats, even before the A/C. This would create a conflict here in 1 Cor 15 and in Hebrews 9:27-28 which says:

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This passage above presents a couple of problems for your pre-trib theory. First the "once to die." Obviously Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:51 would be in conflict if living are changed unless Paul is citing an exception. Let's say Paul cites an exception. Where would the exception be expected, prior to the Tribulation or after the Millennium? All living has to be changed into spiritual bodies after the millennium, that's a given. So if there is another exception prior to the Tribulation, there would be two exceptions. One exception can be understood, but two without any clarification? That would be considered a Biblical conflict and we know there aren't any, just lack of understanding.

The other problem you have is the next verse, Heb 9:28 which says Christ will APPEAR a second time. It doesn't say land on a mountain, it says APPEAR. According to your rapture doctrine Christ APPEARS in the clouds. So, why are we told the verse prior that everyone must die once then told Christ will appear a second time if during this visit we are changed and don't die??? Can you explain??? Secondly, we know Christ will save when he returns after the Tribulation as 1/3 of Israel are clearly saved. So if there are two more returns of Christ, why is only one return mentioned with one talk of salvation associated with it?

Rev 1:

7 Behold , he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We see that Christ comes with clouds. We see that EVERY eye shall see him and the earth will wail. Is this the Rapture or Second Coming in your mind? If this is the Rapture and everyone sees Him and mourns because of Him, how can they be fooled by the Antichrist unless they look like identical twins??

The timing is Post Trib. This is clear from the fact that everyone will wail because they know at this moment that they screwed up and were worshiping the false Christ. This verse is nearly identical to Mat 24:30

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Clearly you have clouds at His Second Coming. You differentiate the Rapture saying He comes in clouds then but lands on Mount Zion later. Clearly there are clouds present at His Second Coming as well. Clearly there is mourning, clearly there is a gathering of Elect.
You need 1 Thes 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53 to be linked. You also need them to be different from Mat 24:30-31. But are they different.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have the Lord returning in or with clouds and you have the Elect gathered in both 1 Thes and Mat 24. These passages appear almost identical. Interestingly, neither passage talks about any living person being changed.

What is different is 1 Cor 15:51-53. You have no mention of the Lord, no mention of clouds or angels, no shouts, no saints coming from heaven. The only thing the same is a trumpet except the 1 Cor 15 trumpet is the LAST trumpet. The trumpet in the other two passages is not referred to as the last one.

So, I submit to you Brother Chosen, scriptures are with me and against you. The Rapture doctrine causes conflicts all over the place. It violates Heb 9:27-28, 2 Thes 2:1-4, Mat 24:30-31 just to name a few.

 

[PlainWord]

Chosen,

I was going to respond to the rest of your last reply but realized that you are too far gone to try to correct. When you start out with a false premise like Satan's Pre-Trib Rapture deception it forces you to look at the entire Word differently. Your view of prophesy, those involved and the Kingdom of God are completely 180 degrees out-of-phase with the truth. This one lie has caused you to alter about 1/3 of the Bible to fit the lie.

I can't help you Brother Chosen. God knows I've tried and tried. You are just too blind and too far gone for me to get through to you. You are pregnant and nursing these lies, just as Jesus warned. Notice He doesn't say "women or mothers?" He says "them."

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Notice the woman is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of martyrs? Notice the distinction?

Notice the 144K?

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

They are spiritually pure, not having slept with the Harlot, not having believed the lies.

I wish you the best and will pray that one day soon your eyes will be open so that you will be spared the shame of falling for the False Christ and his bogus Rapture doctrine.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Will this nonsense posted by people with absolutely no Biblical education or knowledge never end???

Angela, true Biblical education and knowledge comes from studying and believing the Bible.

Not by going to some apostate seminary to sit under so called "educated" scholars who think they are smarter than God.

The whole thesis is totally erroneous, as many have pointed out. The Hebrew Bible is in a completely different order.

Okay and what about the English Bible???


After all, the English Bible we have today which is the King James Bible is the Absolute Final Authority. I believe there is a reason why the order of the books changed in the process of translation from the Hebrew Bible to the English Bible.

So that proves the thesis wrong, which also spreads a huge cloud of doubt over the rest of the posts by the OP, esp. this nonsense rapture stuff!

Angela there is going to be a Pre-trib. Rapture. It is taught in the King James Bible. So when the trumpet sounds at the last trump, you are going up whether you want to or not.

Just think about it. By agreeing with the OP, you are agreeing with someone who posted something by a false Bible teacher. He believes the internet preachers rather than taking the time to study the Greek and Hebrew and learning what the Bible really says, instead of fear-mongering lying teachers!

What the Bible really says is what is found in God's pure, inerrant and perfect word, which is the King James Bible. And the King James Bible teaches a pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

I don't need to go to the Hebrew or the Greek. I have in my hands God's pure and inerrant words.

And brother Denlinger is not a false teacher Angela. He is a Bible believing preacher and teacher who teaches Bible truth.

If you want to stay clear from false teachers then I suggest you stop listening to those who teach a post trib. rapture.

And make sure you get a King James Bible and ask the LORD to open your eyes to His word. Then start reading and believing His word.

 

[cnewsom]

I have a new twist for ya...

I don't believe in the tribulation as you describe it. I believe in a general resurrection as described in Thessalonians. The prophets were all pointing to the day of Pentecost when the old covenant was finished and the new started.

Just like Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. If you did not have Peter's testimony about Joel's prophecy then you would have believed Joel was talking about some far away rapture to take place.

Paul said that "once, in the end of the world Christ appeared..." then he said that those that look for him will he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Have you been saved? Did Christ appear the second time without sin unto salvation when you prayed for your soul?

Think about it. I know that we will learn the truth some day and those of us that are saved will have our questions answered. But in the meant time I enjoy the debate. I'm just not one that can see the end days that paints a picture of monsters and sword fighting. I think it is all spiritual, wrapped up in Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

Angela, true Biblical education and knowledge comes from studying and believing the Bible.

Not by going to some apostate seminary to sit under so called "educated" scholars who think they are smarter than God.





Okay and what about the English Bible???


After all, the English Bible we have today which is the King James Bible is the Absolute Final Authority. I believe there is a reason why the order of the books changed in the process of translation from the Hebrew Bible to the English Bible.





Angela there is going to be a Pre-trib. Rapture. It is taught in the King James Bible. So when the trumpet sounds at the last trump, you are going up whether you want to or not.





What the Bible really says is what is found in God's pure, inerrant and perfect word, which is the King James Bible. And the King James Bible teaches a pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

I don't need to go to the Hebrew or the Greek. I have in my hands God's pure and inerrant words.

And brother Denlinger is not a false teacher Angela. He is a Bible believing preacher and teacher who teaches Bible truth.

If you want to stay clear from false teachers then I suggest you stop listening to those who teach a post trib. rapture.

And make sure you get a King James Bible and ask the LORD to open your eyes to His word. Then start reading and believing His word.

You really are incorrigible! English is not God's perfect language, and the KJV is not the only inspired Biblical text. To say nothing of it being difficult to understand because it is not written in current English, and has numerous translation mistakes, based on the use of late manuscripts, with scribes' notes interpreted as being part of the original text.

What do you think we study in Seminary? We study the Bible - over and over and learn about important things like context, grammar and word usage in the original languages.

Going to Seminary was the best thing that ever happened in terms of understanding the Bible and growing closer to God. And that the Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Not what is going to happen to a bunch of rich, English speaking people.

Your teacher is false, and your beliefs are false. Not to be mean, just to hope and pray that someday you will be set free from this terrible KJV only and pre-trib rapture cult.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You really are incorrigible! English is not God's perfect language, and the KJV is not the only inspired Biblical text. To say nothing of it being difficult to understand because it is not written in current English, and has numerous translation mistakes, based on the use of late manuscripts, with scribes' notes interpreted as being part of the original text.

There are no translation mistakes whatsoever in the King James Bible. Absolutely NONE.

And by the way Angela, we don't have the "original text."

What do you think we study in Seminary? We study the Bible - over and over and learn about important things like context, grammar and word usage in the original languages.

Well if you all study the Bible so much in seminary, why is it when you all come out of seminary, you end up not believing the Bible.

Also, I noticed you said that you all study "the Bible" (singular). What Bible is it that you all study?

Going to Seminary was the best thing that ever happened in terms of understanding the Bible and growing closer to God.

If it was the best thing that ever happened for you, then why is it that you do not believe the Bible is the perfect word of God?

And why is it that you cannot understand a major Doctrine of the Bible which is the Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ?

And that the Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Not what is going to happen to a bunch of rich, English speaking people.

Well Angela the Bible does give us a revelation of Jesus Christ and it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Now again, let me ask you, when you said "the Bible" (singular), what Bible are you referring to???

Your teacher is false, and your beliefs are false.

No, my teacher is not a false teacher. He is a Bible believing preacher and teacher and he preaches Biblical truth. He preaches the whole counsel of God.

It is you Angela whose beliefs are false. If you cannot understand the simple truth of the Pre-trib. Rapture then I suggest you start listening to Bible believing preachers. It will help you.

Not to be mean, just to hope and pray that someday you will be set free from this terrible KJV only and pre-trib rapture cult.

Angela, I am free already because I know the truth. The King James Only Movement is a movement of truth. And again, the Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ is a Bible Doctrine. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church. Why is it so hard for you educated Christians to get that? Why can't you grasp and understand that Bible truth?

 

[PlainWord]

Pre-Tribbers always tell us that the Lord returns two more times. Once before the Tribulation to "Rapture" believers and once after the Tribulation. Pre-Tribbers tell us that 1 Thes 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53 are proof of a Rapture and that these passages are not describing the same event as Mat 24, Rev 1 and 2 Thes 2. They like to narrow their Rapture passages to exclude the context thereby eliminating verses that might identify the timing. They draw a distinction in the 2 future returns of Christ in that the Rapture the Lord only comes on the clouds and doesn't touch down on earth while in the Second Coming he does land on earth.

I studied several of the key passages describing the Lord's return(s) and included the two primary "Rapture" passages of 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 to see how many of events described there can be found in both passages and in the Non Rapture passages. However, I expanded the passages to pick up the full context, something Pre-Tribbers never do. The results were shocking.

Only 1 event (a resurrection) could be found in common between 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15; yet Pre-Tribbers insist that these two passages describe the Rapture. They also insist that Mat 24 is in no way describing the same event as 1 Thes 4 when I found 9 common events with the two passages. Below is a table of my findings. It is a work in progress so please let me know of any errors.

[TABLE="width: 463"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4-5[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[TD]Mat 24[/TD]
[TD]Rev 1[/TD]
[TD]2 Thes 1-2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout/ Loud Voice[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceed Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Concept of Vengeance[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Watch/Be Ready[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Comes as a Thief[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Day of Lord/Christ[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Man of Sin Revealed First[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Falling Away happens first[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Warning about Deception[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sun and Moon Darkened[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Powers of Heaven Shaken[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stars from Heaven Fall[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Earth Mourns[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Power and Great Glory[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]No One Knows Day or Hour[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One Taken, One Left[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Every Eye will See Him[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]