The Pope had no answer...do you?

[nogard]

Sigh...Dan...I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting my time on you. This is what you wrote earlier:

"Why does God let children suffer?"

I think it's because God wanted to create the best possible world... that includes free choice... that means that some humans will choose to hurt others...

But then you admit in your last post that God can alleviate a child's suffering without interfering with free will.

So then we are back at the first question, "why does he let children suffer?"

Your answer was not an answer at all.

 

[nogard]

To understand suffering and hardship read the book of Job and the story of Joseph in Genesis (in prayer). Also, you have to think that those who are poor are more likely to receive the Kingdom of God than those who are rich, fat, and full of themselves. Many times when we go thru trials of suffering, or we go thru some type of painful situation, we learn something great from it spiritually. Also, we have to understand that this world is not God's Kingdom yet. This world is man's kingdom under the ultimate rule of the devil. For when Adam rebelled against God, the world fell into sin and corruption. However, there is a second Adam named Jesus Christ whereby thru Him, we can be a part of a new kingdom one day, where there will be no more pain, suffering, sorrow, death, disease, etc.

In addition, God is God because He knows the grand design and tapestry of life that you cannot see. Otherwise He wouldnt' be God. Atheists here who point out that God does not care about the children who suffer do not know the love of God and how he does care. God cares more for than just for our temporary needs that can lead us down the wrong path. God cares ultimately for our eternal and spiritual needs first. What are these needs? It is a relationship with God. For God knows what everyone needs for the best good to lead them into a relationship with Him. Each person is different. But God knows every single one of them. Some will never accept God no matter what. But that is their choice.

Also, when we help the poor (As believers), we are doing so unto God. We are showing our love for God. It is a selfless act in helping those who are in desperate need. This is what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. Every man is in desperate need spiritually to be saved. Jesus (Who is God Almgihty in the flesh) died in our place so as to help us who were poor spiritually. We are to be like Christ and walk as He walked. Loving all others. For to love is to know God.

Jason, the problem with this post is that it assumes whenever suffering occurs, that there is either some lesson to be learned or some good to come out of it. While that is true for some instances of suffering, it is not true for other instances of suffering.

A man goes hiking alone in the woods and falls off a cliff face, breaking both legs on impact. He is bleeding out and in a good amount of pain, and he dies four hours later. A boy in America is kidnapped by a sociopath who does all sorts of horrible things to the boy and then finally kills him two days later. These are just two examples I made up of four hours and two days, respectively, of what is known as unjustifiable suffering. Unjustifiable suffering is any kind of suffering where nothing is learned and no positive is gained from it. This kind of suffering does happen in the world, and this is the kind of suffering that your post doesn't address.

 

[nogard]

You do not believe God.....you do not believe scripture...How do you expect to figure out who God is??? but you do blame God for sitting by while little boys and girls get raped repeatedly......why do I not hear you blame the people who do the actual raping...Have you never done wrong against anyone???....who do you blame for your actions...? if you broke a traffic light...do you go to the cops and say ..oh I broke the law ...I came to pay the fine...no you hope no one saw....and you get away scot free....well the rapists will not go and confess they raped....they will hope no one saw and they get away scot free....did you blame God for your actions?????...then why blame him for theirs??? ...and you will not believe me if I told you God cares...

Ok...I got to take this one piece by piece here...

You do not believe God.....you do not believe scripture...How do you expect to figure out who God is???

So you can not understand God objectively? You must be subjectively biased in order to understand Him? Interesting.

but you do blame God for sitting by while little boys and girls get raped repeatedly......why do I not hear you blame the people who do the actual raping...Have you never done wrong against anyone???....who do you blame for your actions...?

First of all, if God is not real, He is not to be blamed. I am speaking as if God is real. Under that assumption I feel safe to say that God would share some blame in that since He has the power to stop it but chooses not to.....And of course I blame the actual rapist too. And I would also blame any other adults who were in the room but chose not report it or try to stop it. See, I'm blaming God for His inaction and His bystanding. A child slowly withers away and dies of hunger. God does nothing there. It's the inaction that is the problem. And of course I've done wrong things, and I have only myself to blame for my bad actions. And if my actions cause suffering to other people, then myself, and anyone around me who could alleviate that suffering are at fault. If I shoot someone in front of a witness, and the witness flees and doesn't say a word, then that witness, by even human law, shares blame in the act even though he didn't commit the act, he chose not to take steps to alleviate the suffering of the victim, and that's punishable by law.

...and you will not believe me if I told you God cares...

I don't want you to tell me that God cares, I want you to show me that God cares. Show me why you believe He cares. In light of what has been brought up in this topic, why do you think He cares? That's what I want to know.

 

[GuessWho]

A man goes hiking alone in the woods and falls off a cliff face, breaking both legs on impact. He is bleeding out and in a good amount of pain, and he dies four hours later. A boy in America is kidnapped by a sociopath who does all sorts of horrible things to the boy and then finally kills him two days later. These are just two examples I made up of four hours and two days, respectively, of what is known as unjustifiable suffering. Unjustifiable suffering is any kind of suffering where nothing is learned and no positive is gained from it. This kind of suffering does happen in the world, and this is the kind of suffering that your post doesn't address.

I think God does not suspend the freedom of a person even if this person is a sociopath preparing to kill an innocent man...

 

[GuessWho]

I don't see a hug answering anything...and what do you mean by compassion....a sorry looking face ...How does that help anyone...he saw a little girl crying out in pain and hurt for others like her ...what can you tell her about God's love.....She already heard about God's love.....she wants to see God's love in action ...that is why she is asking ...have you come on behalf of God???and what does she get...a hug and a sorry expression....come on bro...how can tears be more important than the question????

I think he was showing her love. Or what did you expect? A discourse about human suffering?

 

[nogard]

I think God does not suspend the freedom of a person even if this person is a sociopath preparing to kill an innocent man...

Except sometimes He does suspend their freedom, or at least interferes with the outcome. This is kind of what I was getting at with Dan. Christians believe that God interacts in this world, he sometimes rescues people from situations that they wouldn't have gotten out of otherwise, correct? Well, is that suspending freedom or is it not? If it is, then God is already violating it when it suits Him so it becomes a matter of selective interference. If it is not, then giving someone freedom apparently has nothing to do with his ability to rescue people from certain situations...so why doesn't he? It's like either answer you give, the problem still remains.

 

[GuessWho]

Except sometimes He does suspend their freedom, or at least interferes with the outcome. This is kind of what I was getting at with Dan. Christians believe that God interacts in this world, he sometimes rescues people from situations that they wouldn't have gotten out of otherwise, correct? Well, is that suspending freedom or is it not?

I believe God can suspend the instinct of animals, can command the weather etc., but I insist that He does not suspend the freedom of people. I don't know of any example (in the Bible) where God suspended a man's freedom of choice. Maybe you do?

 

[nogard]

I believe God can suspend the instinct of animals, can command the weather etc., but I insist that He does not suspend the freedom of people. I don't know of any example (in the Bible) where God suspended a man's freedom of choice. Maybe you do?

Do you believe God rescues people from situations of suffering in the world today, yes or no?

(and on a side note, I believe God hardening Pharoahs heart would be a good example)

 

[GuessWho]

Do you believe God rescues people from situations of suffering in the world today, yes or no?

It depends what situations. God rescued the three young men who were thrown into the pit with lions. But He did not rescued Abel from being murdered, He did not saved Saint Stephen from being killed with stones etc., etc.

 

[nogard]

It depends what situations. God rescued the three young men who were thrown into the pit with lions. But He did not rescued Abel from being murdered, He did not saved Saint Stephen from being killed with stones etc., etc.

So let me see if I got everything straight. God can and sometimes does rescue people in need. This does not seem to interfere or violate free will in any way. So what is the justification for God to allow unnecessary or prolonged suffering to occur?

 

[GuessWho]

So let me see if I got everything straight. God can and sometimes does rescue people in need. This does not seem to interfere or violate free will in any way.

Yes, you understood. God does not violate or suspend a man's freedom. God does assist man's freedom and sometimes constraint man's freedom (through sufferance), but ultimately, the choice belongs to the man. It is man's ontological right to turn the back at God and decide to do his own will (even if this choice is in his own detriment). God does not force people to follow Him or chose Him. So, God never suspends man's freedom of choice.

So what is the justification for God to allow unnecessary or prolonged suffering to occur?

I don't know. A possible answer could be that we, humans, chose to be ruled by Satan (manifested in our vain ambitions, our passions, our idols etc.) and if Satan we chose, Satan we get.

 

[Sirk]

Man bought the lie that he could find better than what God offered.....God obliged and here we are....not so good is it?

 

[ColinCat]

Yes, you understood. God does not violate or suspend a man's freedom. God does assist man's freedom and sometimes constraint man's freedom (through sufferance), but ultimately, the choice belongs to the man. It is man's ontological right to turn the back at God and decide to do his own will (even if this choice is in his own detriment). God does not force people to follow Him or chose Him. So, God never suspends man's freedom of choice.



I don't know. A possible answer could be that we, humans, chose to be ruled by Satan (manifested in our vain ambitions, our passions, our idols etc.) and if Satan we chose, Satan we get.

So what choice are the kids starving to death in Africa right now faced with? Have they decided their own will?

Or the many children around the world facing some kind of abuse at home right now. I guess that was their choice too?

 

[Brother_Don]

Being on the streets at 15 has helped make me who i am today. Bringing me to the understanding that the Almighty, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the only ones i can really trust. i'm sure that people thought, that poor kid out on the streets, but they didn't see what was happening inside me the work that Almighty was doing in me, building my trust in Him and faith that He would always be there for me, turning me around 180 from what i was becoming. Then by age 17 i was going from city to city, town to town, sharing what the Almighty had done for me. It's been a long road with many pot holes, road blocks, and things to trip over, but 36 years later all is well. i thanks Almighty for giving His Son who took me by the hand and show me that He is real, with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Jesus Himself went through things that i went through, the birds have their nests, but the Son of man has no place to lay his head. So instead of saying why to the Almighty, i say Thankyou.

 

[GuessWho]

So what choice are the kids starving to death in Africa right now faced with? Have they decided their own will?

Or the many children around the world facing some kind of abuse at home right now. I guess that was their choice too?

It is our choice, as a human race, to chose evil and while doing so, this evil propagate on innocent children also. That's what I kept on saying: that God does not stop bad people from mistreating innocent people. God does not suspend people's freedom.

God did not stop Hitler from murdering the Jews. God does not stop the persecutions that happen in some parts of the world, God does not stop consumers from chosing consumerism and ignore the global issues of famine and poverty.

 

[GuessWho]

I meant to say "it is our freedom to chose" not "it is our choice to chose".

 

[Mitspa]

Being on the streets at 15 has helped make me who i am today. Bringing me to the understanding that the Almighty, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the only ones i can really trust. i'm sure that people thought, that poor kid out on the streets, but they didn't see what was happening inside me the work that Almighty was doing in me, building my trust in Him and faith that He would always be there for me, turning me around 180 from what i was becoming. Then by age 17 i was going from city to city, town to town, sharing what the Almighty had done for me. It's been a long road with many pot holes, road blocks, and things to trip over, but 36 years later all is well. i thanks Almighty for giving His Son who took me by the hand and show me that He is real, with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Jesus Himself went through things that i went through, the birds have their nests, but the Son of man has no place to lay his head. So instead of saying why to the Almighty, i say Thankyou.

Yea I think a lot of us used to say "this is not fair" but later after we come to Christ we look back and say that He somehow took that unfair darkness and made it in to light..

 

[ColinCat]

It is our choice, as a human race, to chose evil and while doing so, this evil propagate on innocent children also. That's what I kept on saying: that God does not stop bad people from mistreating innocent people. God does not suspend people's freedom.

God did not stop Hitler from murdering the Jews. God does not stop the persecutions that happen in some parts of the world, God does not stop consumers from chosing consumerism and ignore the global issues of famine and poverty.

So why does god favour the will of the inflictor over the will of the victim?

Why did he not allow the will of Joseph fritzels daughter for 25 years in that basement, who wanted to escape, but allowed the will of Fritzel himself to carry this out and wanted to entrap and control.

Its one persons will to want to hurt, and another's will to not want to be hurt. Why does god always go with The aggressor?

 

[Dan_473]

Sigh...Dan...I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting my time on you. This is what you wrote earlier:



But then you admit in your last post that God can alleviate a child's suffering without interfering with free will.

So then we are back at the first question, "why does he let children suffer?"

Your answer was not an answer at all.

Right, and I wasn't attempting to write an exhaustive treatise on why I think this is the best possible world... God could alleviate a child's suffering, yes... how should God do it? Maybe, everytime a child is hungry or cold, they soon find food and warm clothes and places to stay... why stop at kids? should God do that for adults, too? if so, then I'll quit my job and go live on the street, which is what I would assume every sane person would do...
suppose God alleviated all suffering everywhere... how would the excersize of free will look, then?

 

[Dan_473]

Except sometimes He does suspend their freedom, or at least interferes with the outcome. This is kind of what I was getting at with Dan. Christians believe that God interacts in this world, he sometimes rescues people from situations that they wouldn't have gotten out of otherwise, correct? Well, is that suspending freedom or is it not? If it is, then God is already violating it when it suits Him so it becomes a matter of selective interference. If it is not, then giving someone freedom apparently has nothing to do with his ability to rescue people from certain situations...so why doesn't he? It's like either answer you give, the problem still remains.

Good points! Now, I think the problem is in seeing that God must act all the time... yes, if God interacts in every human choice, then that choice would become so distorted as to not be choice anymore... so, suppose God acts sometimes...

Maybe it's like a child wanting to ride a bike, and a parent running alongside of them... if the parent corrects every swerve, the child never gets the joy of riding... should the parent correct sometimes? I think so... then the big complaint becomes that God doesn't act when you think he should... I've certainly thought that...

One thing is that we don't really know what God does with us after we die... so, we only see part of the picture now...