The prodigal son came back. Is coming 'back' a condition for OSAS faith ?

[crossnote]

Only if we continue to receive Him.

I m not sure where you came up with the concept of 'continue to receive Him'?
Remember it is not a matter of how tight we hold His hand (as his children) but rather the fact that He holds our hand.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(Joh 10:28-29)

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(Gal 4:6-7)

If I had to live the Christian life wondering if I am continuing to receive Him I would never experience His peace.
Besides the eternal life we have received when we first believed was accompanied by receiving the Holy Spirit as a guarantee and seal.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2)

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(2Co 1:22)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)

 

[PS]

I m not sure where you came up with the concept of 'continue to receive Him'?
Remember it is not a matter of how tight we hold His hand (as his children) but rather the fact that He holds our hand.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(Joh 10:28-29)

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(Gal 4:6-7)

If I had to live the Christian life wondering if I am continuing to receive Him I would never experience His peace.
Besides the eternal life we have received when we first believed was accompanied by receiving the Holy Spirit as a guarantee and seal.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2)

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(2Co 1:22)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)

In my case that was years ago and without doing this I would be a Christian only on paper.

[video]http://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIi5vAxRsCIA0Xh2BQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3 VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=every+day+wit h+jesus+is+sweeter+than+the+day+before&vid=5b920d0 80cc06a19cbdaf1b6a4d17902&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3 .mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4932040692859102%26pid% 3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3 Fv%3DBefir7QVYXk&tit=EVERYDAY+WITH+JESUS&c=1&sigr= 11a2rmtkg&fr=chr-greentree_ff[/video]

.

 

[crossnote]

In my case that was years ago and without doing this I would be a Christian only on paper.

[video]http://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIi5vAxRsCIA0Xh2BQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3 VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=every+day+wit h+jesus+is+sweeter+than+the+day+before&vid=5b920d0 80cc06a19cbdaf1b6a4d17902&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3 .mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4932040692859102%26pid% 3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3 Fv%3DBefir7QVYXk&tit=EVERYDAY+WITH+JESUS&c=1&sigr= 11a2rmtkg&fr=chr-greentree_ff[/video]

.

True no Christian who has been transformed by God's Holy Spirit is one on paper.

 

[Katy-follower]

It would have got a lot worse, believe me. You may in one sense have wasted those years, but God can even use our folly for His glory, though He so wishes we would learn without being stubborn and have to go through the chastisement.

It's like a father disciplining his child. I can see that God always brings something good out of a bad situation. Satan gives it his best shot, which is always weak, because God will use situations to bring people to repentance.

I regret that 3 people I knew actually died during my straying years. I didn't witness to them but you never know what will happen on a person's death bed. One was an atheist. I still think of them and how different things could have been, but it's possible they may have heard the gospel from someone else.

I think one of the worst things we can do is never share the gospel with friends and family. It will be our name they scream out from eternal darkness, because we knew the truth and never told them

I never discuss OSAS on these websites, for a certain reason. But I know God will never let you go if you have had a true conversion, not possible. You'd have to disown his son, and though a backslider commits folly and is unfaithful, I do not believe it possible for someone truly born anew of the Spirit to outrightly disown Christ, be a fool yes, but not disown him.

I think I've replied to this topic about a hundred times, it's an ongoing discussion here. It just makes me sad to see twisting of scripture, especially when it's a message of maintaining salvation by performance (works) because it's a false gospel.

When we're born again we become new creatures in Christ. It's not possible for us to deny Him when we already know Him. Only those who remain in darkness will deny Him. Never a believer, because our eyes have been opened.

By the way, I also am a Brit. I need you to send Hovis bread and shandy my way!

 

[Katy-follower]

God's love is unfailing, but if we choose not to walk in His love and kindness then He does not love us. As the word talks about God has a perfect hatred. A hope and love that all might come to Him, but he hates those who hate Him.

God does not hate His children. Until a person becomes a child of God (righteous by the blood of Jesus) they remain in the world, being led by Satan.

John 8:44-47: "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

As children of God we have become new creatures in Christ. We are righteous by the blood of Jesus and we are no longer condemned. We are forgiven. Those who do not believe are condemned.

John 3:18-21: "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their (the unsaved) deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Those, who are truly children of God, will be chastened when they stray, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

There is only one spiritual birth (being born again/born of God)... we are not saved multiple times.

So yes, God will give us eternal life IF we continue in Him. Not that we have already received it, but IF we continue we will.

You're adding to scripture, which is a serious thing. Nowhere do I see an IF when God promises us eternal life.

You are trying to maintain your salvation by your own performance (works), which you can't do. Eternal security is one of the promises given to believers the moment we are saved. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (our inheritance!) It doesn't say "sealed until your next sin" and it also doesn't say the Holy Spirit keeps leaving and then returning each time. We are saved once, not multiple times.

Galatians 3:3 - "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" We cannot earn our own salvation, so neither can we earn the maintenance of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation.

 

[PS]

God does not hate His children. Until a person becomes a child of God (righteous by the blood of Jesus) they remain in the world, being led by Satan.

John 8:44-47: "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

As children of God we have become new creatures in Christ. We are righteous by the blood of Jesus and we are no longer condemned. We are forgiven. Those who do not believe are condemned.

John 3:18-21: "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their (the unsaved) deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Those, who are truly children of God, will be chastened when they stray, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

There is only one spiritual birth (being born again/born of God)... we are not saved multiple times.



You're adding to scripture, which is a serious thing. Nowhere do I see an IF when God promises us eternal life.

You are trying to maintain your salvation by your own performance (works), which you can't do. Eternal security is one of the promises given to believers the moment we are saved. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (our inheritance!) It doesn't say "sealed until your next sin" and it also doesn't say the Holy Spirit keeps leaving and then returning each time. We are saved once, not multiple times.

Galatians 3:3 - "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" We cannot earn our own salvation, so neither can we earn the maintenance of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation.

We cannot earn our faith that is true but we can depart from it.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternallygreatful,
The word says that if we deny Him, He will deny us. That means we can renounce it. Yes if a son leaves His father then he is still His son, but if His son dies he is no longer His son and thats what we are talking about here. Spiritual death.

So what your saying is Eternal life is not eternal? Why would God LIE about something like this?

How about in John 6. Where jesus said whoever comes to him and believes in him, he will never hunger or thirst, never die, Live forever, have eternal life and be raised (not deliveered on the last day.

What about eph 1 - 2 which speak of our eternal life sealed by the spirit himself who is our guarantee?

What your saying is Go, in his omniscience saved a person he KNEW was going to later deny him and gave this person eternal life? Sorry I can;t by it.

If we are faithless, he is faithfull, he can not deny himself. If he takes what he told us he gave us back for ANY reason, he denies himself., because he becomes a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not earning or unearning your salvation. Its whether we choose to accept it or deny it.

It has nothing to do with US. It has everything to do with God.

If we really repent. we would never leave, because we are born of God. This is what John said, do you wish to believe some men who teach this, or listen to God through the Apostle John who states clearly they were never of us, for if they were of us, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT.

 

[Katy-follower]

We cannot earn our faith that is true but we can depart from it.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

.

True conversion is measured by visible fruit. Apostasy is not a loss of salvation, but rather a demonstration that salvation was never truly possessed to begin with.

Apostates
Jude 1:16-19: "These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" (not saved)

Jude 1:3-4: "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord Godand our Lord Jesus Christ"

1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" - the sign of an apostate is that he eventually falls away and departs from the truth of God’s Word and His righteousness. John signifies this is a mark of a false believer.

Titus 1:15-16: "To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him (no good fruits/not saved), being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work"

Ephesians 5:8: "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light" - true believers have been delivered out of spiritual darkness into light, therefore will not deny core truths of Scripture.

Matthew 15:14: "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

2 Thess 2:3: "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first"

2 Tim 3:1-5: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

1 Timothy 4:1-2 deals with the issue of false teachers who were not saved to begin with. This is the area of apostasy. The basic meaning of apostasy is "to fall away from the faith that one professed to have, but never really had." It has to do with people who made a show of faith, claiming to be believers but then, little by little, gave in to seducing, demonic spirits and teaching of false doctrines.

Verse 2..... "speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth" - those who are truly saved, that know the truth, would be able to discern truth from falsehoods. One does not abandon the truth for a lie, unless they are not saved, in which case they live in darkness and are easily controlled by Satan.

The doctrine of losing salvation, not being secure in Christ, not being sealed unto redemption, maintaining your own salvation, denying God keeps us, etc - these are all apostate teachings!


♥♥♥Philippians 1:6: "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"♥♥♥

 

[Katy-follower]

Paul, a man who had the Spirit warned the Galatians that he could come to them preaching another gospel and if so that he might be eternally condemned.

Galatians 1:8-9: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed"

Paul was warning them about false teachers that teach another gospel. Paul confirms that it's not WHO teaches but WHAT is being taught that is to be used to determine truth from error.

This is not a scripture supporting conditional salvation at all.

 

[Crossfire]

Galatians 1:8-9: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed"

Paul was warning them about false teachers that teach another gospel. Paul confirms that it's not WHO teaches but WHAT is being taught that is to be used to determine truth from error.

This is not a scripture supporting conditional salvation at all. He was making a point.

Neither does it support unconditional salvation because their is no such thing.

Faith is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation. In order to answer the question as to whether or not salvation can be lost, we must first understand faith. Can faith be lost (whither and die)?

Understand how faith works and you will understand how salvation works.

 

[Crossfire]

The doctrine of losing salvation, not being secure in Christ, not being sealed unto redemption, maintaining your own salvation, denying God keeps us, etc - these are all apostate teachings!

According to John 3 and Ephesians 2, faith in Christ alone is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation.

Why is it that you are attempting to add another condition by insisting that one must believe that salvation can not be lost in order to be saved?

 

[Katy-follower]

Neither does it support unconditional salvation either because their is no such thing.

Faith is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation. In order to answer the question as to whether or not salvation can be lost, we must first understand faith. Can faith be lost (whither and die)?

Understand how faith works and you will understand how salvation works.

You quoted my post, but yet you didn't read it.

I was responding to wrongful use of that scripture, where she was suggesting a born again believer can be eternally condemned. Paul was warning of false teachers that are not saved. The scripture is not one for supporting conditional salvation, that is all I was saying.

Hebrews 12:2: "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith"

Saving faith is a gift from God, not something we come up with on our own. He is also the sustainer of our faith, so true saving faith cannot be lost, taken away or given away. Christ has created our faith and He will watch over it, care for it and sustain it.

♥♥♥Philippians 1:6: "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"♥♥♥

 

[psychomom]

You quoted my post, but yet you didn't read it.

I was responding to wrongful use of that scripture, where she was suggesting a born again believer can be eternally condemned. Paul was warning of false teachers that are not saved. The scripture is not one for supporting conditional salvation, that is all I was saying.

Hebrews 12:2: "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith"

Saving faith is a gift from God, not something we come up with on our own. He is also the sustainer of our faith, so true saving faith cannot be lost, taken away or given away. Christ has created our faith and He will watch over it, care for it and sustain it.

♥♥♥Philippians 1:6: "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"♥♥♥

That's my sister Katy!! ♥

 

[Katy-follower]

According to John 3 and Ephesians 2, faith in Christ alone is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation.

Why is it that you are attempting to add another condition by insisting that one must believe that salvation can not be lost in order to be saved?

You're adding something that was never written.

To quote my post: "The doctrine of losing salvation, not being secure in Christ, not being sealed unto redemption, maintaining your own salvation, denying God keeps us, etc - these are all apostate teachings!"

- I was saying that these are false teachings and we must not listen to them.


We are saved by grace through faith.

We receive the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved - our inheritance, sealed unto the day of redemption. One of the promises is eternal security and I find it hard to believe that so many doubt this promise. They want to believe that they are responsible for keeping their salvation. God chose us from the foundation of the world. He knew every future sin we would commit and how many times we would backslide, but He still saved us. He will never leave us or forsake us. If anyone speaks in opposition to scripture then they are teaching a false doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Neither does it support unconditional salvation because their is no such thing.

Faith is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation. In order to answer the question as to whether or not salvation can be lost, we must first understand faith. Can faith be lost (whither and die)?

Understand how faith works and you will understand how salvation works.

I disagree. What we have to understand is what salvation is.

Eternal (life)
Condemnation removed
Past from death to life
Sealed by the spirit who is our gaurantee
A promise God will never leave us nor forsake us
Not given a spirit of fear but adoption
Forgiven ALL tresspasses
Perfected FOREVER
God will leave the flock to bring lost sheep home


etc etc etc.

If God promises all these things, and then renigs on his promise. Then what Kind of God is he?

Faith can wither, but can it ever completely fade away if it was real? I don;t see it. But even with a withering faith?

Even if we are faith LESS he is faith FULL, he can not deny himself

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to John 3 and Ephesians 2, faith in Christ alone is the only prerequisite (condition) for salvation.

Why is it that you are attempting to add another condition by insisting that one must believe that salvation can not be lost in order to be saved?

I would not go this far. But will say, if you think Salvation can be lost based on something we do, or don't do. (adding another per-requisite) We are trusting self for salvation. And denying the promises of God (or do not understand them) so how could we have true faith in God? Thus how could we be saved?

 

[PS]

True conversion is measured by visible fruit. Apostasy is not a loss of salvation, but rather a demonstration that salvation was never truly possessed to begin with.

Apostates
Jude 1:16-19: "These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" (not saved)

Jude 1:3-4: "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord Godand our Lord Jesus Christ"

1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" - the sign of an apostate is that he eventually falls away and departs from the truth of God’s Word and His righteousness. John signifies this is a mark of a false believer.

Titus 1:15-16: "To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him (no good fruits/not saved), being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work"

Ephesians 5:8: "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light" - true believers have been delivered out of spiritual darkness into light, therefore will not deny core truths of Scripture.

Matthew 15:14: "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

2 Thess 2:3: "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first"

2 Tim 3:1-5: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

1 Timothy 4:1-2 deals with the issue of false teachers who were not saved to begin with. This is the area of apostasy. The basic meaning of apostasy is "to fall away from the faith that one professed to have, but never really had." It has to do with people who made a show of faith, claiming to be believers but then, little by little, gave in to seducing, demonic spirits and teaching of false doctrines.

Verse 2..... "speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth" - those who are truly saved, that know the truth, would be able to discern truth from falsehoods. One does not abandon the truth for a lie, unless they are not saved, in which case they live in darkness and are easily controlled by Satan.

The doctrine of losing salvation, not being secure in Christ, not being sealed unto redemption, maintaining your own salvation, denying God keeps us, etc - these are all apostate teachings!


♥♥♥Philippians 1:6: "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"♥♥♥

Those people didn't have faith as you say, so why quote them. But in order to "abandon the faith" you need to have faith to begin with or you cannot 'abandon' it.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those people didn't have faith as you say, so why quote them. But in order to "abandon the faith" you need to have faith to begin with or you cannot 'abandon' it.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

.

Thats talking about the falling away of the church. we see this today and people are following deceiving spirits. Why do you want to trust self and not God?

 

[Bookends]

Originally Posted by PS

Those people didn't have faith as you say, so why quote them. But in order to "abandon the faith" you need to have faith to begin with or you cannot 'abandon' it.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Thats talking about the falling away of the church. we see this today and people are following deceiving spirits. Why do you want to trust self and not God?

Actually this happened short after the NT Church got started, but still applies today.