The Rapture explained in two minutes

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
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Jesus told the believers (Peter, James and John) that they would be gathered into the arms of Jesus at the time of the great "Gathering". It's stated right there in the Olivet Discourse.

But you seem to be specifically inquiring about the "church". There is nothing unique or extra-special about the word "ekklesia". It's just one of many dozens of words used to refer to believers. Dispensationalists and PreTribbers try to give it some sort of "extra" significance.

It is actually quite interesting and disturbing how dubious 'translators' in olden times decided to take this Greek word "ekklesia" and translate it into this completely and utterly unrelated English word "church". Why didn't they simply translate it correctly into "the called out ones" (the literal translation)? Or some Anglicized version of "ekklesia". Very, very dubious, indeed.

There HAS been a lot of intrigue surrounding the various translations of the Bible. There is significant evidence that the word "church" comes from occult origins. It relates back to the word "circle"...which, in the context of religious culture, is a satanic concept. Satanists do every thing in 'circles' in their rituals.

Think about it -- what IS this strange word "church"? It doesn't relate to "ekklesia". It doesn't relate to the idea of "the called out ones".


I have noticed this also.

This is why I have tried to use the words "Pentecost Kingdom", when describing the "church".

Another name that i sometimes use is "Kingdom of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit", (gift Acts 2:38).

----

The reason that I use these terms is that people have different ideas about what the word "church" means.

Some think of a building, or that it is only their local congregation.

Others think of their denomination or the RCC.

----

When it comes to prophecy, those perceptions distort the meaning.

One example is pre-trib multi-resurrection theories.

Pre-trib says that the "church" is taken up to heaven at the beginning of a literal 7 year trib period for the wedding.

But here is the problem,

That would end the covenant/church/kingdom period.

How would people be saved after the covenant/church/kingdom is ended?

Pre-trib points to the 144000, the trib saints, the mill, etc., as examples of souls being saved AFTER the resurrection/rapture has happened and the covenant/kingdom/church is ended.

Pre-trib says that only the "church" is taken up, and Israel after the flesh is left.

The 144000 and Israel after the flesh then believe and are saved along with the souls of the mill..

They will not be part of the church/kingdom? How will they be saved?

Under what covenant?

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38

After the Rap/Resur, they can't do this?

They can't enter the "chruch"/kingdom?

(When Jesus comes for us, this planet ends in fire, in same the hour, get ready)

----

So in this example, the word "church", if taken from the stand point of pre-trib,

Is showing a kingdom where entrance is limited to the time before the rapture/resurrection, and ends at the rapture/resurrection.

For me "church" means the kingdom lasts to the end of the planet.

As for preterits, as far as I can tell,

The entrance into the "church" ended in 70 ad., since there is no hope of a resurrection promise for them, no heaven, everything having been fulfilled in 70 ad.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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The abomination of desolation has not happened yet,for it will be the man of sin that steps in to the Jewish temple,and claims to be God,and their Messiah,and deceives all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and when they take the mark of the beast,then salvation is no longer available to them,and the beast will make war against the saints for three and one half years,and those remaining on earth will be caught up,and God will go against the world,and punish them for their sins and iniquities against Him.

The beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and all who dwell on earth shall worship him who do not love God,and the saints shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

When they say Peace and safety,and there is a peace treaty bringing peace in the Middle East,then a 7 years period will begin of the decline of the world where God is no longer accepted as truth among them,and the Bible says that temptation will come upon the world,to try all them that dwell on earth,but Jesus will deliver all those who abide in the truth from that temptation,and Paul said the elect will not be deceived when they say Peace and safety,for they will know that it is not the truth of trying to achieve peace on earth by their own efforts,and denying the operation of God on earth,which the beast kingdom is based on the occult,acknowledging no god,but honoring the God of forces,the power of nature being their God,and all about spiritual evolution by the power of nature.

The Jews will rebuild their temple,and go back to animal sacrifices,with no hassle from the Palestinians,and the man of sin will establish a peace treaty to bring peace in the Middle East,and then three and one half years later he will step in to their temple,and claim to be God,and their Messiah.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel did not understand what was told him,but the book is sealed until the end time,for they will understand it then because of advanced travel,and advanced technology,and they can observe what the world is doing,and how they can come together.

Jesus told the disciples of things that will occur on earth that they could only understand at the time of advanced travel,and technology,for back then they would of been in the same position as Daniel,not being able to understand these things that will occur in different places on earth.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The saints shall be hated of all nations,not a few nations,but all nations,the whole world that does not love God.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations,not a few nations,but all nations,then the end shall come,for the whole world knows of the truth,and that is when the desolation of abomination occurs,and the man of sin claims to be God by harnessing the power of nature,and deceives all people who do not love God to follow the beast kingdom,which all people that follow the beast kingdom will have no excuse why they followed the beast kingdom,for all who dwell upon earth shall know of the truth of the Bible.

God has to allow the world to come together and rebel against Him,before He puts them down,for He will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and at that time is when the abomination of desolation will occur,which the man of sin will spread his abominations in the world,of the God of forces,and not a personal God,the occult,harnessing the power of nature for spiritual evolution,and witchcraft,for he will cause craft to prosper.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This is the only reference of the overthrow of Jerusalem in the first century,and Jesus did not go into detail about it,for what is there to go in to detail about,it is war,and Jesus only said the buildings are coming down,because the disciples said look at these lovely buildings,and Jesus said do not think they are anything special for they are coming down,and that is it for that.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Then Jesus tells them of the sign of His coming,and the end of the world,and then tells them things that will occur at this time,with all the spiritual deception,and the saints being able to observe the world,and see the things that occur on earth,and the saints being hated of all nations,and the Gospel being preached in to all the world so all people know the truth of the Bible,before God allows the man of sin to deceive all those who do not love Him.

The abomination of desolation occurs when all Gentile nations are together trying to achieve peace on earth,and is the time that God allows the man of sin to deceive all people who do not love God to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on the whole earth,and move forward to the saints ruling the world,and then going to the New Jerusalem,the final destination of the saints.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

This is the second attack on Jerusalem that has not happened yet,for it is all nations together,not a few nations,but all nations together,and the saints will have been resurrected to be with Jesus,and God comes back with all the saints,and puts down the world.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jesus and the saints will rule over all the people that are left from the attack on Jerusalem.

They cannot place the abomination of desolation in the first century,for it is the time for God to allow all people on earth that does not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can put an end to all sin on earth,and establish the millennial reign of Christ.

The fourth beast shall devour the whole earth,not some of it,but the whole earth,and shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.

Also if the abomination of desolation occurred back in the first century,we would not be posting on this web site,for we would of never been born,for God would of ended all sin on earth back then,the millennial reign will be over,and the saints would be at the New Jerusalem,and this earth,and the heavens,would be no more,but would be a new earth,and heaven.

They say the millennial reign is spiritual,but Jesus has been ruling ever since He ascended to heaven,which is more than a thousand years,and when He does rule there will be peace for a 1000 years,no wars,animals are plant eaters,and a little child can lead the most ferocious animal of today,and that animal will not even have a desire to hurt that child,and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD(Isaiah 11).

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The abomination of desolation cannot be placed in the first century,and if they do not believe what the Bible states,they will not believe even if one rose from the dead and told them.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
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well... not all Israelis are Torah observant, so imo they would fall into the gentile camp.

as I understand it, pretty much any gentile with enough money is welcome to travel in Jerusalem for either religious or touristy reasons. The Israeli government encourages this, I believe.

Dan----You cannot just become a Gentile because you do not believe in the Torah. Your reasoning is totally false.

 
Dec 2, 2016
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Hi Johnny: Jesus taught the disciples on several occasions that He was going to return in the future and establish His kingdom. Jesus also told the disciples of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. So at one point(Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) the disciples just asked Him when would these things be(destruction of temple)and the end of the age and His return. At that time Jesus went into detail about His return and explained that it would be in the sky, with angels, and a trumpet and that He would gather the believers to Himself. Jesus also said that this would happen after the tribulation time, war, famine, disease, shakings, great persecution of believers in Christ. The church believed this until around 1830 when a man named John Darby begin to teach that there was ANOTHER return of Christ just like the one Jesus gave the church except it would happen BEFORE the tribulation, of course folks ate this up because it was a way out of the tribulation...but not really because it was false. We live in a time when people recognize the teaching of John Darby was false but they will not let it go. What John Darby taught that when Jesus said that He would return to gather the church after the tribulation that Jesus did not mean what He said.
 
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GaryA

Guest
First, if I have offended you forgive me.
In the particular "personal" sense which you mean here, you have not offended me in the slightest. As I have said, you usually come across with a 'gentlemanly' disposition. I actually appreciate the fact that you are [ generally ] very 'polite' in your responses.

The "offense" of which I speak is not a "personal" type of offense; rather, it is a form of 'pride' and 'arrogance' - a kind that a person may not even realize that they possess ( because they are actually 'blinded' by it ) - that says:

"I cannot possibly be wrong."


There is a difference between this kind of 'attitude' and one that says:

"I feel strong in my convictions that I am correct in my understanding, but I could possibly be wrong..."


There are a number of people on here who I have never - not even once, in the slightest degree - seen admit that they could possibly be wrong.

This is the "offense" of which I speak.


My only concern is contending for the truth.
And, that is certainly 'admirable'. Everyone should contend for the truth. :cool:


You are mistaking pride with knowledge of scripture. I'm telling you that you are incorrect in your interpretation of the gathering of the church and the timing of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and are thereby distorting it.
And, I am telling you the same thing. When people "invent" whole [ complicated ] eschatologies in order to avoid accepting the simple, straight-forward, meaning of 'blatent' passages of scripture ( i.e. - Matthew 24:29-31 ), something is severely wrong. What you consider to be included in the 'Wrath of God' ( particularly, from an End Times Scenario point-of-view ) is a whole lot more 'abstract' than the plain-and-simple truth put forth in Matthew 24:29-31.

Some 'pre-trib' folks act as though nothing occurs - or, can occur - "immediately after the tribulation" -- even yet while the verse very clearly states it.

Something is severely wrong...


When a person comes to Christ, they have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God.
Yes - but, this does not exempt them from 'tribulation' or 'martyrdom'.


The wrath of God that is coming is nothing like the earth has ever experienced.
Exactly!

So then - why do you continue to insist that the 'Wrath of God' includes things which are the common experience and history of Christianity?

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
You seem to be a gracious member.

I don't think he was talking about you specifically.

Possibly me...LOL
He is a lot less "abrasive" than you... :p

( But, even you have a "softer" side. ;) I have seen it. :cool: Your secret is out... :eek: )

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Something you pre-trib folks need to recognize, every post-trib believer was FIRST a pre-trib believer, because we were all taught pre-trib as the result of the efforts of John Darby. Therefore it is futile to strive to convince a post-trib person to be pre-trib by using scripture and pre-trib reasoning...BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNOW IT! Post-trib folks know all the arguments for pre-trib because they were pre-trib before they changed to post-trib. You can ask a post-trib person why they changed from pre-trib to post-trib and they will tell you. However pointing out why you believe in pre-trib is futile because we already know why folks believe in pre-trib.
And, we can show them the 'error' in their thinking. Or rather, the Holy Spirit can --- IF - and only IF - they are willing to "unclench" themselves from some very bad interpretations of scripture...

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
In a nutshell, what changed your mind to post?
In a nutshell...

Sincere personal Bible study ( in search of the truth ) - which revealed the simple truth of what the scriptures actually say - as opposed to what I was taught that they said...

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
I see the Temple destroyed, is that the abomination of desolation I don't think so, because of what Luke add to the Discourse. The disciples asked this “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”, "for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." and "until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled". We can't discount these that Luke adds to the Discourse, to fulfill all that is written, that hasn't happened yet, not the times of the Gentiles.
I believe that the AoD must have occurred ~70 A.D. because of what Luke adds to the Discourse.

Let me ask you something...

Do you think that "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is talking about a long period of time ( ~2000 years ) or a short one ( less than 7 years )?

Do you think that "and shall be led away captive into all nations" is talking about a long period of time or a short one?

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Does it occur to you that there might be a problem...since you are the only person on earth who has this (pardon my French) wildly wacky "Rube Goldberg"-style prophecy doctrine? Think about it -- you are, in effect, claiming to be the only person on the planet who has the correct views on Bible prophecy. Only one person understands the Bible -- you. (?)
I am not claiming any such thing.

I am only presenting what I believe, like everyone else...

:)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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Something you pre-trib folks need to recognize, every post-trib believer was FIRST a pre-trib believer, because we were all taught pre-trib as the result of the efforts of John Darby. Therefore it is futile to strive to convince a post-trib person to be pre-trib by using scripture and pre-trib reasoning...BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNOW IT! Post-trib folks know all the arguments for pre-trib because they were pre-trib before they changed to post-trib. You can ask a post-trib person why they changed from pre-trib to post-trib and they will tell you. However pointing out why you believe in pre-trib is futile because we already know why folks believe in pre-trib.
Something you pre-trib folks need to recognize, every post-trib believer was FIRST a pre-trib believer, because we were all taught pre-trib as the result of the efforts of John Darby.
Morning samuel23,

The above is a false assumption. As I studied the scriptures, I never came to the conclusion of Christ gathering the church after the tribulation period. In addition, I have never read anything by John Darby or Calvin, which people seem to like to use as an apologetic. I compare the translations, read the interlinear and cross-reference and compare scripture. And that is how I came to my conclusion that Christ will gather his church prior to that time of tribulatiion, during which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (wrath of God) will be in operation.

When we refer you to the scriptures that state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus experienced the God's wrath on behalf of all believers, instead of considering those scriptures, you redefine God's wrath, relocate it, symbolize it or allorgorize it.

You would have those of us who know the truth, believe that after coming to Christ, being reconciled and credited with righteousness, that God is going to send his church through his wrath anyway. You dishonor the Lord by not recognizing that he took upon himself God's wrath and therefore believers are not appointed to suffer it. And make no mistake, God's wrath (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments) will be in operation during that entire seven years.

You have not yet answered the question as to how the bride can be seen as already being in heaven receiving her fine linen in Rev.19:6-8 and then seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. These are those of the dead and living in Christ, who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. Rev.17:14 identifies this group as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers. Point being, if they are in heaven receiving their white clothing at the wedding of the Lamb and are following Christ OUT OF HEAVEN, how can you and others say that the church/bride is gathered when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is the event of Rev.19:11-21? That alone kills the idea of believers being gathered after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The other one is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be in operation during that entire seven years.

You think that just because you changed your mind from pre-trib to post-trib that you are right in your conclusioin? The problem is that you and others are ignoring pertinent exegetical information.

There is no way that the church going through God's wrath and being gathered afterwards could even remotely be considered as "the blessed hope." Nor could believers comfort each other if we were to be gathered by the Lord after his wrath. You need to think about those things.

Whenever these truths are presented to you and others, you just present the same failed apologetic's in support of your position The Lord is certainly not going to build his church and then send it through is wrath. If you believe that, then you just don't understand the severity and the magnitude what the wrath of God is going to entail.
 
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popeye

Guest
I came to recognize that when Jesus told the church He would return for them after the tribulation, that Jesus told the church He would return for them after the tribulation. Not some made up story by John Darby, that we should believe him and not our lying eyes.
Except that is nowhere,absolutely nowhere in the bible.

He even gave Lot,and Noah as examples.

Neither are post trib/ judgement dynamics.

I keep telling you,you need a post judgement dynamic. Someplace where his people are gathered post judgement.

Let me help you. There are 2. The Hebrews in Egypt,and the three youths in Daniel.

Egypt,nor the furnace examples are used by Jesus,EVEN THOUGH the furnace story IS A TYPE OF THE GT.

That's right,it was right under your nose. The furnace is a type of the GT,the three youths,represent the Jews,and Nebuchadnezzar is a type of the AC.

What does this prove?

Jesus never used that example,because his Church DOES NOT GO THROUGH THE GT.

So,everywhere you look,the rapture is in fact pretrib
 
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popeye

Guest
Morning samuel23,

The above is a false assumption. As I studied the scriptures, I never came to the conclusion of Christ gathering the church after the tribulation period. In addition, I have never read anything by John Darby or Calvin, which people seem to like to use as an apologetic. I compare the translations, read the interlinear and cross-reference and compare scripture. And that is how I came to my conclusion that Christ will gather his church prior to that time of tribulatiion, during which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (wrath of God) will be in operation.

When we refer you to the scriptures that state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus experienced the God's wrath on behalf of all believers, instead of considering those scriptures, you redefine God's wrath, relocate it, symbolize it or allorgorize it.

You would have those of us who know the truth, believe that after coming to Christ, being reconciled and credited with righteousness, that God is going to send his church through his wrath anyway. You dishonor the Lord by not recognizing that he took upon himself God's wrath and therefore believers are not appointed to suffer it. And make no mistake, God's wrath (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments) will be in operation during that entire seven years.

You have not yet answered the question as to how the bride can be seen as already being in heaven receiving her fine linen in Rev.19:6-8 and then seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. These are those of the dead and living in Christ, who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. Rev.17:14 identifies this group as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers. Point being, if they are in heaven receiving their white clothing at the wedding of the Lamb and are following Christ OUT OF HEAVEN, how can you and others say that the church/bride is gathered when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is the event of Rev.19:11-21? That alone kills the idea of believers being gathered after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The other one is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be in operation during that entire seven years.

You think that just because you changed your mind from pre-trib to post-trib that you are right in your conclusioin? The problem is that you and others are ignoring pertinent exegetical information.

There is no way that the church going through God's wrath and being gathered afterwards could even remotely be considered as "the blessed hope." Nor could believers comfort each other if we were to be gathered by the Lord after his wrath. You need to think about those things.

Whenever these truths are presented to you and others, you just present the same failed apologetic's in support of your position The Lord is certainly not going to build his church and then send it through is wrath. If you believe that, then you just don't understand the severity and the magnitude what the wrath of God is going to entail.
They believe,with no evidence or examples,that the church mount rider less horses in the clouds and do a uturn in the sky and return to earth.

They made that up all by themselves.

That is the fruit of false doctrine.
 
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popeye

Guest
Except that is nowhere,absolutely nowhere in the bible.

He even gave Lot,and Noah as examples.

Neither are post trib/ judgement dynamics.

I keep telling you,you need a post judgement dynamic. Someplace where his people are gathered post judgement.

Let me help you. There are 2. The Hebrews in Egypt,and the three youths in Daniel.

Egypt,nor the furnace examples are used by Jesus,EVEN THOUGH the furnace story IS A TYPE OF THE GT.

That's right,it was right under your nose. The furnace is a type of the GT,the three youths,represent the Jews,and Nebuchadnezzar is a type of the AC.

What does this prove?

Jesus never used that example,because his Church DOES NOT GO THROUGH THE GT.

So,everywhere you look,the rapture is in fact pretrib
Oh,BTW,the Hebrews delivered out of the furnace would depict a MID TRIB more or less gathering of the Jews.

AHEM,cue rev 14
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
I am not claiming any such thing.

I am only presenting what I believe, like everyone else...

:)
Right. But when you come up with stuff never before seen in the history of the Christian era...the warning lights should come on. It is extremely and highly unlikely that you are the only person on earth who correctly understands the Bible.

At least these PreTribbers have an army of theologians and millions of others who believe their way. And post-tribbers and preterists...the same thing.

Of course, large numbers prove nothing. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide and they're all wrong.

Granted...the fact you have some sort of 'absolutely unique' doctrinal system doesn't, by itself, conclusively prove you are wrong. But when you step back and look at the big, big picture...you're the only person on earth who correctly understand the Bible? God's Word isn't set up so that only one person understands it. God has always had a "community" of believers who have a basically correct perception of His Word...small though that community might be.

Gideon's "congregation" was whittled down from 32,000...to 300. That's about 1%. Granted, that's a small percentage...but there at least was SOME KIND of community. A community of "one"...isn't a community.

And in 1 Kings 19:18...Elijah thought HE was the sole remaining 'faithful' believer...and God revealed there were "7000 faithful followers" left. 7000 out of...what? Maybe a million Israelites? Again, something under 1%. But still, there was a community.

You're claiming, in effect, God has a community of...GaryA, when it comes to Bible prophecy. I mean...your post here (#287 on this thread) has theories which have never before been seen in the history of mankind. That's has to turn on the warning lights, no? And also, you explain NOTHING in that post. Just a long list of bare assertions. There's no way to have a discussion with someone making bare assertions.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
I have never read anything by John Darby or Calvin, which people seem to like to use as an apologetic. I compare the translations, read the interlinear and cross-reference and compare scripture. And that is how I came to my conclusion
You repeatedly try to assert you have come up with the idea of a PreTrib rapture independently of any other teachers and authors. That isn't true. PreTrib is not your 'independent' idea...and to assert such is to be untruthful.

Additionally, you repeatedly propose the idea of complete independence from any other teachers...and that you rely on NO ONE in your studies of the Bible. I would argue you are behaving unbiblically. The fellowship of believers have been given gifts of the Spirit, including those who have been given a "gift of teaching". We are to seek to receive benefit from those in the body who have such gifts...not to go off like some sort of 'lone wolf'. Our personal Bible study needs to be augmented by the teaching gifts of learned men. You keep proposing this "lone wolf" philosophy.

You would have those of us who know the truth, believe that...God is going to send his church through his wrath
Such a strangely dishonest thing to say. (?) No, Samuel23 and I do NOT propose such a thing. We believe God's people will NOT endure God's wrath. And that has been explained to you numerous times...and with Scripture citations (Joel 2:31 as one example) that you will not comment on nor touch with a ten foot pole. It's as though you're allergic to Scripture.

how can you and others say that the church/bride is gathered when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is the event of Rev.19:11-21?
That's just you being victimized by your own circular reasoning. The PreWrath understanding is that God's people will be removed before the end of the seven years. There's your answer.

You misrepresent the PreWrath position...and then after you have erected this false "straw man", you knock it down and declare a 'win'. It's nonsense.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Dan----You cannot just become a Gentile because you do not believe in the Torah. Your reasoning is totally false.


looks like we see it differently.

I think that's one of the cool things about Bible prophecy. There can be so many interesting aspects.

so here, the reader must first decide who is a gentile, what is trampling, and are gentiles doing it.

ROMANS 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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And, we can show them the 'error' in their thinking. Or rather, the Holy Spirit can --- IF - and only IF - they are willing to "unclench" themselves from some very bad interpretations of scripture...

:)
for you pos-ters.... who is going to populate the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.
 
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GaryA

Guest
The above is a false assumption. As I studied the scriptures, I never came to the conclusion of Christ gathering the church after the tribulation period. In addition, I have never read anything by John Darby or Calvin, which people seem to like to use as an apologetic. I compare the translations, read the interlinear and cross-reference and compare scripture. And that is how I came to my conclusion that Christ will gather his church prior to that time of tribulatiion, during which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (wrath of God) will be in operation.
I don't think you are properly understanding what samuel23 was saying...

He did not say that every pre-tribber was a post-tribber first. He said that every post-tribber was a pre-tribber first.

I don't actually agree with the idea that every-last-person who is a post-tribber was a pre-tribber first - and, I really don't think samuel23 does either...

I am pretty sure that the point he was making was --- the "absolute-absolute-majority" of post-tribbers grew up being taught the pre-trib doctrine - and, later, came to the conclusion that it was not biblical - and, at that point in time, became a post-tribber.

He is [ essentially ] saying that the "absolute-absolute-majority" of post-tribbers were pre-tribbers before they became post-tribbers -- and, understand both 'pre-trib' and 'post-trib' teachings...

I do not think you realize just how much 'pre-trib' influence you have actually had in your life. Even the translation you choose to read will influence you -- because, the wording in some of them have been changed so that it "leans" towards 'pre-trib'.

Just because a person has never heard of Darby or Calvin does not mean that they cannot be influenced by the 'error' that those men taught.

You are not as 'isolated' as you think.

:)
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Jesus told the believers (Peter, James and John) that they would be gathered into the arms of Jesus at the time of the great "Gathering". It's stated right there in the Olivet Discourse.

But you seem to be specifically inquiring about the "church". There is nothing unique or extra-special about the word "ekklesia". It's just one of many dozens of words used to refer to believers. Dispensationalists and PreTribbers try to give it some sort of "extra" significance.

It is actually quite interesting and disturbing how dubious 'translators' in olden times decided to take this Greek word "ekklesia" and translate it into this completely and utterly unrelated English word "church". Why didn't they simply translate it correctly into "the called out ones" (the literal translation)? Or some Anglicized version of "ekklesia". Very, very dubious, indeed.

There HAS been a lot of intrigue surrounding the various translations of the Bible. There is significant evidence that the word "church" comes from occult origins. It relates back to the word "circle"...which, in the context of religious culture, is a satanic concept. Satanists do every thing in 'circles' in their rituals.

Think about it -- what IS this strange word "church"? It doesn't relate to "ekklesia". It doesn't relate to the idea of "the called out ones".

sorry Matt... there is no"ekklesia" in the LXX. Try again my friend.