The Rapture explained in two minutes

[MattTooFor]

When Jesus makes a / the statement regarding no one knowing the day or hour, He is referring specifically to His Second Coming.

The "day and hour" is referring to the "coming of the Son of Man" not the "Second Coming"...whatever you may mean by that...and when it comes to GaryA, only the Good Lord knows.

If you're claiming the "gathering" event in Matthew 24 is something that is happening at the very end of the troubles for the "holy city" and the Jewish people...that can't be because Rev. 11:3 stipulates "the nations...will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months."...a period of time which begins with the Abomination of Desolation.

That's exactly 1260 days. You can't have the troubles of believers ending (such as Peter, James and John) after exactly 1260 days because "no one knows the day or hour".

The "troubles" of believers must end sometime before the end of those 1260 days...not only to uphold the "no one knows" scripture...but also to leave enough time for God to inflict His "Day of the Lord" wrath.

One of the events which occurs after the opening of the scroll after all the 7 seals are broken (which is when God's wrath begins) lasts a full 150 days (the demonic humanoid scorpions)...so God will require at least that much time and probably quite a bit more. Obviously, no one knows the length of the "Day of the Lord"...because no one knows the length of the "Great Tribulation"...and both of those events must fit into the 42 month (1260 day) time frame.

 

[MattTooFor]

Find me one place where the church is mentioned from Revelation 4 onward.

You have no rebuttal to the Bible. There is no such thing as rebutting the Scriptures. Jesus told Peter, James and John to look for the Abomination event. Game over for PreTrib.

This silly word game devised by the original PreTrib innovators...is just that - a silly word game. They make up an arbitrary stipulation that one of the dozens and dozens of words used to refer to believers ("ekklesia") must appear in certain texts which they designate...otherwise, PreTrib claims a 'win' - LOL. Ridiculous and amazing intellectual dishonesty.

Again though...doesn't matter anyway: Jesus told Peter, James and John there would first be the Abomination of Desolation (not some mythical "PreTrib" rapture) followed by Great Tribulation.

Thus, PreTrib is forced to concede it views Peter, James and John as believers in false doctrine...and most astonishing and awkward of all, it must view the very Lord Jesus Himself as a teacher of false doctrine.

Obviously therefore, PreTrib doctrine is an absolute absurdity.

the Lord would put his church through his wrath.

Nah. He raptures them before His wrath. See Joel 2:31 and confirmed by Rev. 6. Your rude obnoxiousness in continuing to brush past my careful counter, whereby you ignore the scriptures I provide to you for discussion purposes and just continue droning on robotically with your propaganda recitation...very, very odd.

 

[Johnny_B]

I really have no solid idea of what you're trying to say.

The simple fact is...Jesus told Peter, James and John to look for...NOT a mythical pre-70th Week "rapture" event...no, He told them to look for the Abomination of Desolation (etc.).

GAME OVER for PreTrib doctrine. It is a false doctrine.

There is no rebuttal to that. There is no rebuttal to the Bible. You can't contradict the Scriptures. Plain and simple.

Along with Peter, James and John, I believe what Jesus said. THAT is my belief.

No I can't, that's why Luke 17:21 needs to be delt with. "Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."

This is a Scripture you won't seem to deal with, because you're not the final authority and it rebuts your doctrine of Jesus teaching that the disciples will see His coming. It doesn't contradict anything, it compliments the Olivet Discourse. There is something that you are missing that puts it all together and I'm not saying that I have it either. But really, your misconception of Olivet Discourse, does not make a pre-trib rapture false. As I said when we talked when you first started this thread, it's been a long time since I've studied this so I don't know where I fall on the rapture. It's not an essential doctrine, like Salvation by grace, the Deity of Christ or His physical return to earth.

But let's look at Daniel

Are prophetic visions all been fulfilled? No, they haven't and according to Jesus, we need to remember Daniel and understand. 24:15

Daniel 9:24 CEB "Seventy weeks are appointed for your people and for your holy city to complete the rebellion, to end sins, to cover over wrongdoing, to bring eternal righteousness, to seal up prophetic vision, and to anoint the most holy place."

This is a summary of verses 25-27 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; 26 and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.”

So are you saying that the consummation has or the return of Christ, has already happened? That when prophetic visions will be fulfilled, at the consummation or what Paul calls "the perfect comes". Here's what we know about prophecies, we know in part and they will pass away. I Corinthians 13:8-10 “Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.”

Prophecy can not be fully known, because it's in part, we're not given the full revelation of what's to happen, this lines up with what Daniel is saying about prophecy or prophetic visions, they are going to sealed up or pass way as Paul put it.

Matt can we please discuss this with all gentleness, meekness and graciousness, if it seems like I've stepped out of line please forgive my. Read what Paul said about, love never failing, convicted me as to I may have spoke out of turn with you, if I have can you forgive me?

 

[MattTooFor]

"THAT would mean He (Jesus) and everyone else in those days would know the EXACT day of His return," which is why the church is not gathered at that time

Exactly right! You nailed it, buddy! The believers are NOT gathered at the end of the 1260 days...otherwise that would be a violation of "no one knows the day or hour".

Even if this mythical "PreTrib" rapture occurred...there would still be these millions of so-called "tribulation saints". How are you going to explain away the fact they would know the exact day of the ending of the 1260 days? You'll need to undertake more mangling, twisting and butchering of Scripture to answer that one.

And it doesn't even matter anyway. PreTrib loses the debate at the very beginning when Jesus tells Peter, James and John to look for the Abomination, followed by the Great tribulation, followed by the Gathering.

They believed Jesus. And I believe what they believed. Any other beliefs which contradict what Peter, James and John held to (those things which Jesus related to them)...is false doctrine. Therefore, PreTrib is obviously false doctrine.

 

[Johnny_B]

Matt did you write the e-booklet in your signature and does it explain what you believe in detail? Can you let me know so I can read it if you did write it that way I'll be able to understand what you believe because I think this thread has caused you to be defensive and a bit animated, which when I get like that I forget to type something because my mind is racing trying to get all the information to the person I'm talking to, again let me know so I can read it if you did.

 

[MattTooFor]

Read what Paul said about, love never failing, convicted me as to I may have spoke out of turn with you, if I have can you forgive me?

I don't need to forgive you for anything. Everything's fine as far as i'm concerned.

Luke 17:21 needs to be delt with. "Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."

This is a Scripture you won't seem to deal with, because you're not the final authority and it rebuts your doctrine of Jesus teaching that the disciples will see His coming.

I already answered both of your points...about Luke 17:21...and about the question of whether Peter, James and John would or wouldn't survive to see those events:

Jesus also advises that He does NOT know the timing of these events ("no one knows the day or the hour, but only the Father in heaven"). In other words, He did not know if Peter, James, John or the rest of the first generation of the Christian era would themselves survive to see these events...or whether these events might happen [with future generations of believers] 2000 years into the future.

I really don't even understand what you're trying to argue. Don't understand your point.

And then, regarding your question about Luke 17:

[In Luke 17] He is saying that people will be so desirous to see the Lord's return, it will lead to them being seduced into deception - "do not go running after them".

In Luke 17, Jesus is simply referring to the fact that at times it will be a tough test of patience, waiting for the Lord to come crashing onto the world scene and take us away from all our troubles. I don't see what you think is a controversy. There is none. (??) Luke 17 isn't even remotely related to the Olivet Discourse.

And I honestly don't know what you're trying to say with all your comments about Daniel. I have made the key point in my OP...the question of - what did Peter, James and John believe when they went out from the Olivet Discourse? A very, very, very simple question.

And whatever they believed, I want to make very, very certain that I believe the same thing...because THEIR beliefs were the correct beliefs.

What did they believe? Well...they believed what Jesus told them.

This is all so utterly simple, I don't see what people are getting mixed up. Except that...they WANT to believe what they're comfortable with. Not saying you. I don't know exactly what your questions or issues are.

 

[GaryA]

You poor people! SMH

There is nothing like a group of people debating endlessly over something when all of them are wrong...

It is truly amazing just how treacherously far into error the misinterpretation of a few short verses of scripture can throw someone into!

THERE * IS * NO * SEVEN * YEAR * TRIBULATION * PERIOD !!!!!!!

Where you get this from is a severely mangled interpretation of Daniel 9:27.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I declare to you the following TRUTH:

TRUTH: Jesus DOES NOT QUOTE Daniel 9:27!

TRUTH: Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 make reference to the "abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 11,12; the "overspreading of abominations" in Daniel 9:27 IS NOT talking about the same thing! ( particularly-and-specifically -- i.e. - it may certainly include the AoD as part of the 'abominations' referred to, but it IS NOT specifically talking about the "committing" of the AoD as an 'event'. )

TRUTH: Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

TRUTH: The 70th week of Daniel ended ~3.5 years after His resurrection.

TRUTH: The end of the 70th week of Daniel marked the end of the 'times of the Jews' ( which is exactly-and-precisely what Daniel 9:24-27 is all about ) and the beginning of the 'times of the Gentiles'.

TRUTH: The 70 weeks of Daniel - "a single span of 490 consecutive unbroken years with no gaps" - are 100% fulfilled.

TRUTH: The list of things in Daniel 9:24 were all 100% accomplished by the ministry, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

IF you do not understand the true meaning of those things listed in Daniel 9:24, then keep studying the scriptures!

You were taught error -- no doubt by well-intentioned people who love the Lord - as I was also taught the same error...

Nonetheless - you were taught error!

Satan has blinded you to the truth of the scriptures with regard to this particular 'issue'.

I pray the Lord will open your eyes to the truth of the scriptures.

If he ever does, you will "feel silly" for giving the devil so much pleasure convincing you to clench so tightly to such error...

Please listen to what the Bible is trying to tell you. Please stop listening to the "traditions of men" teaching that has been crammed down your throat all-of-your-life.

"May the Lord help you..."

 

[MattTooFor]

Matt did you write the e-booklet in your signature and does it explain what you believe in detail? Can you let me know so I can read it if you did write it that way I'll be able to understand what you believe because I think this thread has caused you to be defensive and a bit animated, which when I get like that I forget to type something because my mind is racing trying to get all the information to the person I'm talking to, again let me know so I can read it if you did.

I think I always try to have an "animated" style - LOL. Defensive? Not really. The argument I'm making, that Peter, James and John believed and accepted Jesus' plain and simple statements about the Abomination (etc.)...is so powerful, it's really just on 'automatic pilot'. I'm doing not much more than simply quoting Scripture.

It's kind of like what Spurgeon said when they asked him how to defend the teachings of the Bible against "higher criticism". He said "you defend the Word of God the same way you would defend a lion: open the cage door and get out of the way" (an approximate paraphrase).

But yes, if you dive into my e-booklet (an approximate 90 minute read) I get deeply into the Olivet Discourse arguments. Part one has a short-ish opening section about suspected "wolf in sheep's clothing" Christian music star, Michael W. Smith...which I suppose you can browse past and get to the part about the Olivet Discourse.

 

[GaryA]

There is nothing like a group of people debating endlessly over something when all of them are wrong...

( And, if you are not actually part of this group, then I am probably not talking about you... )

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

If he ever does, you will "feel silly" for giving the devil so much pleasure convincing you to clench so tightly to such error...

If He ever does, ...

 

[Johnny_B]

I don't need to forgive you for anything. Everything's fine as far as i'm concerned.

I already answered both of your points...about Luke 17:21...and about the question of whether Peter, James and John would or wouldn't survive to see those events:I really don't even understand what you're trying to argue. Don't understand your point.

And then, regarding your question about Luke 17:In Luke 17, Jesus is simply referring to the fact that at times it will be a tough test of patience, waiting for the Lord to come crashing onto the world scene and take us away from all our troubles. I don't see what you think is a controversy. There is none. (??) Luke 17 isn't even remotely related to the Olivet Discourse.

And I honestly don't know what you're trying to say with all your comments about Daniel. I have made the key point in my OP...the question of - what did Peter, James and John believe when they went out from the Olivet Discourse? A very, very, very simple question.

And whatever they believed, I want to make very, very certain that I believe the same thing...because THEIR beliefs were the correct beliefs.

What did they believe? Well...they believed what Jesus told them.

This is all so utterly simple, I don't see what people are getting mixed up. Except that...they WANT to believe what they're comfortable with. Not saying you. I don't know exactly what your questions or issues are.

I know that 17 is not part of the Olivet Discourse, it follows the same story line and is on the same subject and it adds to the Discourse. The reason I looked into it is because I have a parallel Synoptic Gospels book by one of the editor of the Greek New Testament and he adds 17 to the Discourse to complete story lines like Noah, he adds Lot to the mix. He's no fly by night dispensationalist, it's helped my greatly in understanding the Discourse. I missed your post on if you believe that He has come already because I know there are some that believe that or I'vebeen misinformed which is more likely. I go to take care of some business and there's a page or so added and I miss posts. As far as Daniel, it seems like you believe that Jesus already came if so, Daniel says it hasn't happened yet because of prophecy not be total fulfilled, that's my point on that, you may not understand because you don't believe that, but I haven't read that post.

Did you write the e-booklet that's in your signature? If so I'll read it so I can understand what you believe that has you want to correct others on it. I have a friend that doesn't believe that God causes us to be born again like in I Peter 1:3, him and I went back and forth on Facebook for a couple of months. God Bless

 

[Johnny_B]

I think I always try to have an "animated" style - LOL. Defensive? Not really. The argument I'm making, that Peter, James and John believed and accepted Jesus' plain and simple statements about the Abomination (etc.)...is so powerful, it's really just on 'automatic pilot'. I'm doing not much more than simply quoting Scripture.

It's kind of like what Spurgeon said when they asked him how to defend the teachings of the Bible against "higher criticism". He said "you defend the Word of God the same way you would defend a lion: open the cage door and get out of the way" (an approximate paraphrase).

But yes, if you dive into my e-booklet (an approximate 90 minute read) I get deeply into the Olivet Discourse arguments. Part one has a short-ish opening section about suspected "wolf in sheep's clothing" Christian music star, Michael W. Smith...which I suppose you can browse past and get to the part about the Olivet Discourse.

Okay I'll check it out.

 

[GaryA]

The "day and hour" is referring to the "coming of the Son of Man" not the "Second Coming"...

Both of those phrases are talking about the same 'event'. There is only one Second Coming of Christ - not two. There is no Third Coming of Christ.

If you're claiming the "gathering" event in Matthew 24 is something that is happening at the very end of the troubles for the "holy city" and the Jewish people...that can't be because Rev. 11:3 stipulates "the nations...will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months."...a period of time which begins with the Abomination of Desolation.

I am claiming that the "gathering" of Matthew 24:31 will occur after "the tribulation of those days" mentioned in Matthew 24:29 ( as it is stated in Matthew 24:29 ) - which refers back to the 'great tribulation' mentioned in Matthew 24:21.

That's exactly 1260 days.

No it is not... [ exactly what you think it is ]

Show me where you got that ( I am pretty sure I know where, but I want you to tell me. ), and I will tell you why your interpretation of it ( that you were taught ) is incorrect.

 

[GaryA]

No I can't, that's why Luke 17:21 needs to be delt with. "Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."

In [ Luke 17:22 ], I believe Jesus is simply telling them that He will not always be with them - bodily. I do not believe that it is connected to the Second Coming.

 

[GaryA]

Please listen to what the Bible is trying to tell you. Please stop listening to the "traditions of men" teaching that has been crammed down your throat all-of-your-life.

And, before you 'react' and reply to [ post #287 ], please go to the Lord in prayer and ask Him:

"Could this man possibly be right in what he is saying?"

"Could I possibly have been taught error all-of-my-life?"

"Would you please show me the truth in the scriptures?"

"Would you please humble me [ enough ] so that I can understand what you are trying to tell me in the scriptures?"


Swallow Pride.
Be Humble.
Ask Him.

 

[Bladerunner]

Here's who the 24 elders are Revelation 21:12-14 "It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The lamp stand represents the Church or seven Churches

Johnny B..... the 24 elders represent the Church and Israel. They are the ones from the OT and the Rapture.

What you are speaking of is the New Jerusalem which will not come about until after the 1000 Year Reign of Jesus Christ.

By the way,,,If God has turned away from Israel in 70 AD, Why are the names of the twelve tribes on the Gates of the New Jerusalem????????can some preterist or replacement theologist (a technician of the other gospel) explain this one.

The Church is the seven Churches...If you read (really read) and study the 7 letters to the Churches, you will find out that the essence of those actual churches of that day are still with us today. IF you want to discuss them, I would be happy to help you but only if you are serious and not like one or two others on this site.

 

[Bladerunner]

I believe that what you see in "the above" is in error...

First:

It is reasonable to say that the candlesticks represent the 7 churches specified in Revelation; it is not reasonable to say that they are the churches specified in Revelation. A candlestick in heaven - in a vision - representing a church - does not necessitate in any way that the represented church is / was /ever-will-be in heaven.

Why do you say that above. I give you scripture where God tells us that the 7 lamp-stands are the seven churches. In fact, I gave you a "letter to Ephesus" (rev 2:1)where Jesus tells the church of Ephesus he will remove their lampstand if they do not repent. If yoiu say this is not so, then in my opinion you are calling HIM (Jesus) a LIAR. Plain and simple.

Yes, It is a vision of what is to come. It was not a pretty picture which is what they want you to believe. It was a vision that moved, that had different characters at different times. No Picture can do that.



Also - if you are going to be that specific - then, you should recognize that those seven candlesticks represented those seven churches -- and, not any other churches ever in existence other than those specified churches.

The churches represent the essence of those actual churches back then. Lets take Thyritia,,, which in my opinion represents the RCC..... She still has not repented and even now goes deeper in everyday. What about Ephesus,,,,,Yes, their is a organization who does not like to call themselves a denomination, who in mine and other's opinions are represented here. Take a look at the other churches and compare them to the denominations, sects, cults and independent churches that are out there today...Think you will find they compare up pretty well. In fact, you are a part of one of them. It is plain to see.


Second:

Everything concerning the churches in Revelation is / was in very specific regard to the particular churches specified - in existence at the time John wrote Revelation - and only those churches. It is a fantastic "leap" in-of-itself to assume that those churches represented in Revelation somehow directly "extrapolate" into "The Church" or all local churches that ever came into existence after that.

If you think about what Jesus is saying --- what the candlestick represents about [ the church it represents ] - is expressly existent at the time that Revelation was written - and is expressly about the church that was existent at the time that Revelation was written.

At best, each of the churches represents a prophetic shadow of different "phases" that "The Church" would go through during the rest of human history - up until the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

However, it is erroneous to "automatically extrapolate" out of Revelation anything placing [ actual ] churches in heaven at any given point in time. That is not what is revealed in Revelation. It is simply not there...

The fact that - in the same 'letter' - John writes to some currently-presently-existent-churches - followed by some prophetic stuff ----- it takes some pretty "out there" fantasy to come up with the idea that this somehow translates into "rapture of the church before any of [ the prophetic stuff ] takes place...

It is pure fantasy.

And, 'pre-trib' is "chock-full" of this kind of fantasy.

With God's help - you can train yourself to not be "taken away" by this fantasy - away from what the Bible actually says...

It is this same kind of fantasy that keeps you from understanding what Daniel 9:24-27 is actually saying.

If I explain it to you --- will you understand it? Probably not...

Not until you are ready to give up the fairy-tale.

It is not your fault that you were taught to believe in the fairy-tale. But, you are going to have to ask God to help you escape it...

I am not trying to insult you; I am trying to "wake you up" --- you are "caught in the 'pre-trib' matrix", and you need to get out of it...

As for the rest of your rant,,,, it is nonsense, which is what "SCOFFERS" of today are suppose to do. May GOD help your Soul for it is apparent no-one on this earth will be able to change your mind. REm Time is Very SHORT!

 

[Bladerunner]

When Jesus makes a / the statement regarding no one knowing the day or hour, He is referring specifically to His Second Coming.

You see, it is apparent you do not read the Book of Revelation but rather listen to others to tell you what to say!

The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is written about more than all the days Jesus was on this earth. We know when He is coming back. We know at the end of the 3 1/2 year of the GREAT TRIBULATION, when the armies of the world gather in the "Valley of Megiddo" or "Jezreel", He will gather His elect from the four corners of Heaven and destroy them. It will be seen by all on earth.

In contrast, the Rapture, will be sudden,The time it will happen is unknown, Jesus tells us there will two in the field with one left behind and the other gone, there will be no battles, there will only be death coming to those that are left behind.

Everyone has a eternal Soul.........It will either live in Heaven or Hell.

 

[Dan_473]

I don't really consider myself to be a preterist. I guess some people consider a person to be a preterist if they believe that even-one-little-thing in Olivet Discourse prophecy or Revelation prophecy has been fulfilled?

I believe that some has and some has not [ yet ].

Seems like some prophecies have multiple fulfilments.

 

[Dan_473]

But, you would agree that we are IN the "times of the Gentiles" ( Luke 21:24 ) NOW - right?

interesting idea,

imo, Jerusalem is still being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.