The Rapture explained in two minutes

[Bladerunner]

What if the rapture does not come by the time that you die, but you find yourself faced with worship-the-beast-or-be-beheaded?

Think I already answered that...I DIE

What is your plan B when the rapture does not happen? Sorry,,, I am not wrong, I have no plan B...Either I am ALIVE when Jesus takes me to Heaven or I am Dead when He takes me to Heaven.

What do you mean by "millions are also going to die" that is closely associated with the rapture? Other than those-who-are-alive-and-remain receiving their immortal bodies before meeting the Lord in the air, who is supposed to 'die' at the time of the rapture?

Think about this too,,,,there will perhaps 100 million in the US alone that will Rapture. Are you on an airplane when the Rapture happens...Are you going down with the Pilots going up? How about me driving my heavy Truck on the Higway....How many are going to die because I will not be there to stop it. Multiply this x 100,000,000.

Then all HELL (Real HELL)Breaks loose.....BUT OF COURSE you and the other preterist, replacement Theologist, etc. have thrown Revelation and Prophecies away. According to you, they will not happen. OK>>>


How silly is it to ask such a question?!? If a pre-trib rapture were to actually happen, do you really actually believe that the Lord would leave behind anyone who was a true believer yet did not believe the Bible teached a pre-trib rapture?

YES WHat about you turning your favor away from God's Nation of Israel plus the fact you are not watching for the Rapture (rem, He will come like a thief in the night). The replacement Theology, Preterist is a poke your finger in His EYE kind of event. Of course, you do know that you believe what the RCC does and they are slated to be the Harlot who rides the Beast.

What about someone who was saved but never learned about any kind of rapture? You mean like the multitudes of RCC... Knowledge of the Rapture IS NOT needed for salvation.

The idea that "you have to believe in pre-trib rapture to be raptured" is utterly ridiculous!

These are your words, not MINE...If you are not watching you will be left behind. Those are Jesus' words, Matthew 24 tells you that but ,

And, for people who actually think like that --- that shows just how much 'pre-trib' has taken over their entire theology...

I do wish you good luck in the period after the rapture.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

I believe that the AoD is past history. And, when it occurred, the 70th week of Daniel was already past history.

Nonetheless, I do agree with your assessment regarding the order of events as Jesus told it in the Olivet Discourse -- AoD, then GT, then signs in the sun, moon, etc. - followed by His return and a "gathering" of the saints.

Which Saints.....[The Raptured Saints, The OT Saints--(Make up the Church)], The Martyred Saints, The Tribulations Saints and OH, don't forget about the Believers and Non-believers that live through the Tribulations and will populate the earth for the coming 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ[/COLOR

 

[samuel23]

Some things in the bible are hard to put together, in such cases I try to go with the greater evidence and common sense. How can Christians be with the Lord after death and yet be resurrected? By going with the greater evidence, the initial statement of Paul was that when Jesus returned He would bring with Him those who had died in the Lord. Because this was the first statement we cannot alter it in any way and have to understand the following statement within the context of the first statement. The first statement was that the dead in Christ would come with Christ when He appeared, the second statement was that the dead in Christ would be resurrected before the living would be gathered. Since we know that the dead in Christ are with God and not in the ground, then it would seem that the resurrection Paul referred to was to be called forth from where ever they are in Heaven.

 

[Bladerunner]

In case Lynn's narrative sounds too strong, give this a read... The Destruction of Jerusalem By: George Peter Holford Written in 1805

Which destruction WILLIE

 

[Bladerunner]

It will happen...after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God and the dividing line is when the man of sin appears on the scene.....the delusion God sends and all who refuse to receive the love of the truth will be judged (damned).......and every point I made stands...so in reality what is your point, because you made none!

DC please answer a Question for me....Is the PostTrib Rapture Imminent.

 

[3angels]

Some things in the bible are hard to put together, in such cases I try to go with the greater evidence and common sense. How can Christians be with the Lord after death and yet be resurrected? By going with the greater evidence, the initial statement of Paul was that when Jesus returned He would bring with Him those who had died in the Lord. Because this was the first statement we cannot alter it in any way and have to understand the following statement within the context of the first statement. The first statement was that the dead in Christ would come with Christ when He appeared, the second statement was that the dead in Christ would be resurrected before the living would be gathered. Since we know that the dead in Christ are with God and not in the ground, then it would seem that the resurrection Paul referred to was to be called forth from where ever they are in Heaven.

According to my understanding why would Christ still need to come fetch those who are already saved in Heaven. Because most Christians believe when you die you go directly to heaven and hell. What is the purpose of the resurrection. When Jesus was crucified. He was in the grave. When He spoke to the thief on the cross and told him today you will be in paradise with me. But when Mary Magdalene saw Jesus on resurrection morning. He told do not touch me because I haven't ascended to my Father yet. The bible talks about the first and second resurrection. Whom is Jesus coming to get in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, if all believers are in heaven. To me it is not scriptural what they teach that believers go direct to heaven. Death is referred to as sleep.

 

[Bladerunner]

The resurrection of the saints is all the saints who are left on earth at the end of the great tribulation,for many will perish during the great tribulation,which is for three and one half years,which the Bible says the saints will be given in to the beast's hand for three and one half years,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection will happen.

sorry Jesusrules1......hate to burst your bubble but Raptured Saints plus OT Saints (the Church) plus Martyred Saints, Tribulation Saints and then there will be all those believers and non-believers that live through the Tribulations. These people will populated the earth during the 1000 Yr Reign of Jesus Christ.

 

[Willie-T]

Which destruction WILLIE

The one Jesus warned of. (He wasn't walking around the area in the late 580's BC.)

 

[Ahwatukee]

DC please answer a Question for me....Is the PostTrib Rapture Imminent.

What he and they don't understand is that, the tribulation is God's tribulation, His wrath. In order to support their belief, they redefine God's wrath, relocate it, assign it to past historical events, etc. I continue to say it, there are many who don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath.

Following the gathering of the church that man of lawlessness will reveal himself, establishing that seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to built their temple. He is represented by that 1st seal, the rider on the white horse. Once he is revealed, then the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will ensue, leading to the Lord's return to end the age shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

While it is true that the church will always be susceptible to the trials and tribulations that the Lord said we would have, the church will be removed prior to when the 1st seal is opened, for the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all apart of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer. Those three sets of seven judgments will all be restricted to that seven year time period.

Jesus said that he was going back to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that he was coming back to take us back there, that where he is, we may be also. If we were to go through God's wrath first, there would hardly be any living in Christ to be changed and caught up.

Unfortunately, they're just going to have to see it for themselves before they believe.

 

[samuel23]

Paul the apostle, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Ahwa: You can read the description of the tribulation in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, no wrath of God, Jesus said that it would be a time of great persecution against Christians, that would be the wrath of Satan.

 

[Ahwatukee]

According to my understanding why would Christ still need to come fetch those who are already saved in Heaven. Because most Christians believe when you die you go directly to heaven and hell. What is the purpose of the resurrection. When Jesus was crucified. He was in the grave. When He spoke to the thief on the cross and told him today you will be in paradise with me. But when Mary Magdalene saw Jesus on resurrection morning. He told do not touch me because I haven't ascended to my Father yet. The bible talks about the first and second resurrection. Whom is Jesus coming to get in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, if all believers are in heaven. To me it is not scriptural what they teach that believers go direct to heaven. Death is referred to as sleep.

Hello 3angels,

The meaning of the word anastasis/resurrection always and only has to do with the "body" standing up again. When a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. They too are anticipating the resurrection in heave and we here on earth.

For at the time when the Lord returns to gather the church, he will bring with him all of those spirits/souls who have gone to be in his presence. Their decayed bodies will be raised immortal and glorified and their spirits will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Just as the Lord departed his body at the time of his death and three days later reentered his body in the tomb, so we also must receive immortal and glorified bodies.

Those in Christ who are still alive at the time when the resurrection takes place, will be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies right where we stan, where we will be caught up in the clouds with those who will have just previously resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. Then according do John 14:1-3, Jesus will take the entire church back to the Father's houses, that where he is we may be also. This event will also fulfill Jesus promise which says,

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Jesus did not remain a spirit, but stood back up in his body. In the same way, the bodies of those who have died in Christ will be reanimated, but taking on heavenly qualities, being immortal and glorified. Where the living in Christ at that time, their bodies will simply be changed into those heavenly qualities and that because the living won't be dead in order to be resurrected. The word anastasis translated as resurrection, always has to do with the physical body standing up again.

======================================

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

I hope you find this beeficial.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Paul the apostle, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

You are correct Samuel, the spirit/soul is what departs from the body at the time of death. The body is buried, but the soul/spirit goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the resurrection takes place, those spirits/souls who will have died and departed, will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

I'm amazed at how many people don't understand the resurrection, the difference between the spirit/soul and the body. The resurrection has to do with the spirit/soul being reunited with the resurrected body.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Ahwa: You can read the description of the tribulation in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, no wrath of God, Jesus said that it would be a time of great persecution against Christians, that would be the wrath of Satan.

All of Matt.24 is during the time of God's wrath. When Jesus mentions the abomination being set up in Matt.24:15, that is the middle of the seven years according to Dan.9:27. From Matt.24:15 to Matt.24:29-31, this covers that last 33 1/2 years of that seven year period. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during that time.

That seven years is God's wrath, not Satan's. God will be using Satan and the powers of darkness to fulfill his wrath. For example, God puts it into the hears of the beast and the ten kings to hate the woman who rides the beast to bring about her destruction. That's God's doing while using the powers of darkness against each other.

 

[Bladerunner]

Paul the apostle, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

OK you cannot be both!

 

[Johnny_B]

It is literally so simple, a child can understand it. As I have stated elsewhere, I had my little 12-year-old daughter read through the Olivet Discourse (the Matthew 24 version). It took her fifteen minutes and afterwards she clearly understood all the pertinent aspects of the end times that every believer needs to understand.

It was amazing to me that someone here chided me for thinking my daughter could actually read the Bible and understand it. An amazingly medieval mindset. The priests back in the 1200's and 1300's kept the Bible translated only in Latin because it was thought that the "little people", the common people like you and I...were 'unqualified to read and study the Scriptures.

So the irony here is...while many of these PreTrib proponents are off in their artificially constructed jungle of unnecessarily complex pseudo-doctrines...with their fourth bowl, fifth horn, third whistle, twelfth Jews Harp, concocted/fabricated Jewish virgin evangelists...on and on and on...

...meanwhile, there is this little child who has a thousand times the understanding of these poor lost PreTrib souls.

Stay out of the jungle. Take fifteen minutes to see Jesus answer the simple questions of Peter, James and John...and who heeded Jesus' words to them throughout the remainder of their lives.

Brother you seem a bit condescending here, as if people that believe in a pre-trib rapture are dummies, that your daughter is somehow smarter then them. You never gave a break down of Matthew 24 and it seem you forgot or didn't know, that Matthew 25:31-46 is answering one of the disciples questions. That's great of your daughter understood it. She understood that the second verse is the prediction of the destruction of the Temple, that the disciples asked three question in verse 3?

Here's what my studies have brought me to believe about the Olivet discourse, this is not what I've come to believe about the time of the gathering together of the saints, because I've been a pre-trib, but now I am not sure, it seems like the more you study the more yo don't or realize you don't everything.

Here's what I've come to understand about the Olivet discourse. verse 2, Jesus predicts the distortion of the Temple. That the disciples ask Jesus three question in verse 3, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Verse 15 is the key to understanding what Jesus says next, with this referring to Daniel 9:24-27. Now verses 15-22 are about the Abomination of Desolation, to fully understand this we need to look at Luke 21:20-24, with 21:20 coming before, Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:22 helps clarify Matthew 24:16. Luke 21:24 would be between Matthew 24:21 and 22. Luke 21:24 give the complete meaning of Matthew 24:27, it adds, "in His day" to the end of the verse. Matthew 5-13 is talking about the times of the disciples. Jesus said, "they will deliver you up" "put you to death", all the Apostles were beaten, imprisoned and put to death. The epistles have much to say about false teachers, John said there were many anti-christs in the world, was he referring to false christi, very possible. Jesus adds an interesting part to this in Matthew 24:14, about the Gospel going out to the whole world and all nation. He adds to that then the end will come. Which makes me wonder if the next verses have a double fulfillment. Because He talks about false christ and false prophets again, but these will perform great signs and wonders, in Matthew 24:21-26. Then in verse 27 He says "so will be the coming of the Son of Man, He does talk about lighting as well. Luke 17:25 adds something to this discourse, "First He much suffer many things and be rejected by this generation".

Luke 21:26-27 add more detail to Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:28 gives more information between Matthew 24:31 and 32. These verses are the answer to the question, "what will be the sign of your coming". We know these things have not happened yet because of Luke 17:22, "Then He said to His disciples, you will long to see one of the days of the coming of the Son of Man, but you will not see it". With what Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 and what He's going to say in 24:29, makes me wonder if the next verses have a double fulfillment. Remember Daniel's prophecy, part of 9:24, "To bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy,". We haven't experienced everlasting righteousness yet and vision and prophecy has been sealed or as some translation have it, "fulfilled", which at the coming of Christ to judge and set all things in order or as Paul put it, "when that that is perfect comes". All prophecy will fulfilled and the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 will be completed.

24:29-31. Luke 21:25-26 adds more information to Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:28 adds more information to the end of Matthew 24:31. What's interesting about these verses is this is not talking about the second coming of Christ, it's talking about the sign of His coming. Yes, it says and they will see the Son of Man coming. If you add Luke 21:25-26 with Matthew 24:29. It sounds like verse in the book of Revelation, which would mean this is the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The phrase, get tribulation in verse 29 can also be translated, great distress, so it's not referring to the Great Tribulation, when God's wrath is upon the world. With a gathering of the saints, doe this mean pre-trip, not really, but it could. Here's why I think it could be the beginning of the Great Tribulation, because of what Luke 21:28 adds, "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." Which means that those people that see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, will see His coming and it sounds like it will be after the Great Tribulation, if this is true. That would make it seem as though the rapture would take place after the GT. Don't know if it will or not, I don't have all the information. We always get more as the years go on.

Matthew 24:32-35, here's where lots of people get the date setting. They translate the word, generation, as just that, then add the birth of Israel to the equation and came up with a 1981 or 1988 rapture. The word can be and should translated, race or nation, as wee all know the Jewish people survived over 1800 years without a country or flag. Yet the kept their culture, language and religion, no nation in the history of man has survived more then about 300 years. Before they were completely assimilated into the culture they were living in. For the die harder generation means a group of people in time, they went to Israel wasn't complete until 1967 and the rapture would happen in 2000 or 2007. Why do you think all those Christians were all worried about Y2K, because they thought the GT was going to be starting.

Matthew 24:36-44, here it speaks of His coming. Luke 17:28-30 adds more to the discourse in Matthew 24:39. Luke 17:31-35 adds to Matthew 24:42. Jesus answered the second question, "what's the sign of your coming" in Matthew 24:29-31.

Matthew 25:31-46 He answers the third question, "the end of the age". The final judgement, here Luke adds nothing to the discussion and Mark just followed Matthew, more of an abridged version. As far as a rapture goes Matthew 24:31 sure sounds like one, He is gathering together the saints or the elect, which just about every epistle calls us at the introduction.

Guys this information came from a book that has the synoptic Gospels paralleled and it was done by one of the editors of the Greek New Testament. So this guy is no fly by night dispensationalist and there is no commentary in the book, just footnotes on original text. If you can make anything out of what I wrote it will change your mind on something that you believe about the Olivet discourse. I used to follow the DTS thought line on the end times, once I did a study using that book it changed my view. Do I believe in a rapture, yes, do I believe in a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, yes.

 

[MattTooFor]

Brother you seem a bit condescending here, as if people that believe in a pre-trib rapture are dummies, that your daughter is somehow smarter then them.

I don't know about "condescending. I probably have become a bit pointed...since, during these last couple of months, I have been kicked, slapped, smacked and jabbed around this discussion board by any number of PreTribbers...a discussion board which is comprised of 95% (fairly hostile) PreTribbers and a cadre of extremely annoying (LOL) Preterists who are constantly flanking discussions going on between myself and various PreTribbers, instead of starting their own threads and topics. (These Prets are like a thousand gnats at a picnic, LOL.)

As far as the irony of my daughter having a greater understanding of the Olivet Discourse than, say, John MacArthur...I believe in the simplicity of Bible prophecy. PreTribbers believe in the ultra-complexity of Bible prophecy. I believe a child can read through the bulk of Matthew 24 in fifteen minutes and understand the end times. PreTribbers believe you have to wade earlobe-deep through a jungle swamp of complex and highly technical doctrines for forty or fifty years and STILL only have a vague grasp on prophecy. It's a question of philosophy, I guess.

I've talked to about a hundred pastors over the last 25 years, about their views on Bible prophecy...and 99% of them express reluctance and ambivalence about PreTrib. Amazing to me.

Just to maybe give you some food for thought (and this will probably be the topic of another thread) and just one of many fatal flaws in PreTrib doctrine:

PreTrib inadvertently views Peter, James and John, the original leaders and pillars of the Christian movement...as having horrifically erroneous beliefs and who held to horrifically erroneous doctrines regarding Bible prophecy.

How so?

When they asked Jesus what to look out for in the end times, He told them in the simplest and plainest terms...that they should live with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation, followed by a time of "great tribulation", AFTER WHICH they would then experience a grand and glorious "gathering" of the believers.

OBVIOUSLY therefore, Peter/James/John went out from the Olivet Discourse...with an expectation of encountering the Abomination, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by a post-"Great Tribulation" rapture/gathering/whatever-you-want-call-it.

If you were to have pulled Peter or James or John aside sometime later (say ten years later) and asked them - "do you still heed the words of Jesus to you from the Olivet Discourse?"...what ELSE could we expect Peter to say other than...

..."well OF COURSE we still heed Jesus' words! Why wouldn't we? Has some contradictory teaching come along? And how could there BE a teaching which contradicts Jesus' teaching???"
----

And so, there it is -- Peter, James and John held to "false doctrines" as far as PreTribbers are concerned.

But of course, that is quite absurd. And thus is PreTrib ALSO (unfortunately) quite absurd.

Food for thought.

 

[MattTooFor]

All of Matt.24 is during the time of God's wrath.

That seven years is God's wrath, not Satan's.

You're contradicting Scripture. I believe that's a 'no-no'. No one can contradict the Bible. And the Bible says God's wrath doesn't begin until AFTER the appearance of the great cosmic signs.

God's people are on earth UNTIL the cosmic signs. They are then removed at that time and THEN does the wrath of God commence (according to Joel 2:31 / Revelation 6 / Matthew 24).

The other HUGE problem with your PreTrib doctrine...is that you are (inadvertently or otherwise) consigning Peter, James and John to massive doctrinal error. PreTrib is forced to view the top and original leaders/pillars of the Christian movement...as holding to false doctrines.

They went away from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus had told them. And Jesus told them...that only AFTER the great tribulation could they expect to be "raptured"/"gathered".

Thus, according to PreTrib...they believed in a false doctrine.

Of course, that is utterly and completely absurd to view Peter, James and John as holding to a false doctrine.

As so once again, this is just one of the innumerable ways in which PreTrib doctrine completely unravels and is exposed for what it is -- a false doctrine.

 

[Johnny_B]

Sorry to hear that, we need to walk in brotherly love, that way the world will know we are Jesus' disciples. Matt, let me ask a few things, because I was a dogmatic pre-trib dispensationalist at the beginning of my walk with the Lord. I thought I knew it all, but it was reading Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21 that caused my view to change. I used to go to Calvary Chapel if you know who they. They are total dispensationalist, one day one of the brothers ask me about Matthew 24. I began to explain it to him as I understood it at the time and the first thing out of his mouth was, so you don't believe like Calvary Chapel or what Chuck Smith does. He didn't ask me to explain how I came to that interpretation or how that lined up with the rest of Scripture on the end times.

There's something else that fogs the discussion. You say last days and some people automatically think, the great tribulation, Jesus' return or the final judgement. When the term last days is interpreted for us in Acts 2:17 by Peter himself. The last days started at Jesus' ascension, I believe that the end days is more in line with the coming of Christ, Great Tribulation and the Final Judgement.

Do think the Abomination has already happened in 70 A.D., it's gong to happen and do you see a difference between the sign of His coming and His second coming?

I my walk it seem my eschatology has shifted as my view of God's sovereignty has changed or gave me a better understanding, but I haven't reached the pinnacle of prophecy. I know Chuck Smith and Walter Martin, would go round and round about the rapture. Chuck was pre-trib and Walter was post-trib. I have a book on Daniel and Revelation, the author is a mid-tribber, with a good argument until you read some other Scripture.

 

[MattTooFor]

I understand that you have an attitude since your doctrine is running out of gas.

I don't understand what you mean by "attitude". Nor do I understand what you mean when you say I'm "running out of gas". (??)

I'm just trying to relate the simple, clear words of Jesus to the believers. It's hardly a "doctrine". I'm not doing much more than simply reading the Olivet Discourse text to whoever will listen -- LOL.

One of the problems here is that discussion between myself and PreTribbers (obviously, my intended target audience) keep getting flanked by preterists. Are you a preterist? It's very confusing...and "flanking" a discussion is a bit of a cheap shot. I keep telling these guys (if you're not one of them) "bro, start your own thread, at long, long last".

Preterists who flank these discussions are a bit like an atheist sitting in the back row of a Sunday School class where the teacher is trying to teach a Bible lesson...and the atheist keeps interrupting with "who has proven there is a God, to begin with?". Annoying and poor form.

Anyway...you didn't touch any of my arguments with so much as a ten foot pole. So I was theorizing you might be one of these 'flankers'. Am I wrong? If so, my apologies and...why not discuss my comments.