The Rapture More False Teachings

Ahwatukee · May 6, 2017

Hello Locutis,

The reference to when Jesus said "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen" was in relation to the end of the age, which is what he was talking to His disciples about. Luke 21:5-36 is Luke's version of Matt.24.

The question by his disciples is "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus then proceeds to tell them all of the signs that will take place leading up to his return to the earth to end the age.

Though Jesus mentions the destruction of the temple, that event itself was not the end of the age. There would have to be many signs, namely all that the Lord mentioned in Matt.24 and all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, before the end of the age can take place. Once all of these have taken place, then, just as scripture states, "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." Every eye will see him, even those who pierced Him. You would also have to include all that takes place as recorded in Rev.19:11-21.

Regarding this, have you seen the kings of the earth gathered together at Armageddon and the Lord descending riding on a white horse, with the armies following Him our of heaven also riding on white horses?

Have you seen the antichrist/beast, his image and his mark? Have you seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments?

All of the above and more must take place prior to the Lord's return to earth to end the age.

Therefore regarding "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen," the Lord is speaking from the time frame of those events of wrath that lead up to His return to the earth to end the age and not from the time frame of that generation that he was speaking from.

"Then have they cheek to project something that is about to happen 1900 years into the future."

Regarding the above verse, what do you think about the following:

============================================

"Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”
But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

============================================

The scripture above was spoken to king Ahaz through Isaiah the prophet regarding the birth of the Lord. Yet the fulfillment of that sign--which was to Ahaz--took place over 700 years later. Needless to say, King Ahaz never saw the fulfillment of that sign and there are many more examples like this in scripture. Therefore, why do you find it hard to understand that when Jesus was talking to his disciples about "escaping all that is about to happen" that he was speaking in regards to that generation that would be on the earth when all of those signs begin to take place leading up to the end of the age and not what was "about to happen" from his time frame?

Issachar92 · May 6, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Locutis,

The reference to when Jesus said "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen" was in relation to the end of the age, which is what he was talking to His disciples about. Luke 21:5-36 is Luke's version of Matt.24.

The question by his disciples is "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus then proceeds to tell them all of the signs that will take place leading up to his return to the earth to end the age.

Though Jesus mentions the destruction of the temple, that event itself was not the end of the age. There would have to be many signs, namely all that the Lord mentioned in Matt.24 and all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, before the end of the age can take place. Once all of these have taken place, then, just as scripture states, "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." Every eye will see him, even those who pierced Him. You would also have to include all that takes place as recorded in Rev.19:11-21.

Regarding this, have you seen the kings of the earth gathered together at Armageddon and the Lord descending riding on a white horse, with the armies following Him our of heaven also riding on white horses?

Have you seen the antichrist/beast, his image and his mark? Have you seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments?

All of the above and more must take place prior to the Lord's return to earth to end the age.

Therefore regarding "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen," the Lord is speaking from the time frame of those events of wrath that lead up to His return to the earth to end the age and not from the time frame of that generation that he was speaking from.

"Then have they cheek to project something that is about to happen 1900 years into the future."

Regarding the above verse, what do you think about the following:

============================================

"Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”
But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

============================================

The scripture above was spoken to king Ahaz through Isaiah the prophet regarding the birth of the Lord. Yet the fulfillment of that sign--which was to Ahaz--took place over 700 years later. Needless to say, King Ahaz never saw the fulfillment of that sign and there are many more examples like this in scripture. Therefore, why do you find it hard to understand that when Jesus was talking to his disciples about "escaping all that is about to happen" that he was speaking in regards to that generation that would be on the earth when all of those signs begin to take place leading up to the end of the age and not what was "about to happen" from his time frame?

Great points. I got a question about "all shall see Him including those who pierced Him" HOW? those people been gone for 2000 years.

Nice pointt on the Ahaz sign too, shows that prophecies can have a lot delay in our eyes

Ahwatukee · May 6, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Hello Issachar92,

Regarding "all shall see Him including those who pierced Him," it could be referring to the lineage of the people of Israel in general "those who pierced him" or it could be speaking literally in that, those who are in Hades, both the Jews and the Roman's who were responsible for killing him, that they will see the Lord from their place in Hades when he returns to the earth. Regarding this, if God can roll the sky back like a scroll so that the inhabitants of the earth can see Him sitting on his throne, then I'm sure that He cam make it possible for those in Hades to see Him as He returns to the earth to end the age.

tanakh · May 7, 2017

PlainWord said:

You have obviously latched on to the Preterist view of the last days. I have studied this as far as grasping the basic beliefs
and to be honest there is no way that I can accept it. Even taking account that the destruction of the Temple was a form of judgement and the close of the OT age there is no way that we could be in the millennium. If you take all the OT Prophecies that talk about the future of Israel and the nations you find that the millennium is a golden age of peace
in an Eden like earth with the Messiah ruling from Israel. Even taking into account symbolic descriptions of things
in Revelation and elsewhere it is a huge stretch of the imagination to believe this is all there is. there are so many
flaws with this idea that I could go for pages.

Ahwatukee · May 7, 2017

tanakh said:

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. This event when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, is a literal coming to the earth to rule in Jerusalem from the throne of David. With this type of invisible coming or ruling from heaven, you get rid of the proof of the Lord's visual and physical return.

Regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the way in which the inhabitants could know the difference between the false Christs' claiming to be out in the desert or in the inner rooms, is that the Lord's arrival would be like the lightning which flashes in the east and is seen even in the west. Also, the fact that scripture states that "every eye will see him" (Matt.24:30-31, Rev.1:7) would also demonstrate that His return to the earth to end the age will be physical and visual.

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

tanakh said:

I am not a Preterist. I am an Inmillennialist, meaning we are in the millennium now. The Millennium is the Messianic or Church age. It is a spiritual age. We are part of the spiritual temple not built by hands. Christ is with us, His presence is with us and has been since He returned to execute judgment in 70 AD.

The destruction of the temple and judgment upon Israel, that evil and adulterous generation, was hugely significant. It marked the end of the Mosaic age, the end of sacrifices, the Law, priesthood, the ways of atonement, etc. The judgment was personally delivered by Christ and was the Wrath of the Lamb through His use of the Roman soldiers, just as the Babylonian solders were used to accomplish the first desolation.

The signs of Mat 24:29 are not of a future "end times" return of Christ. Rather, they foretold the judgment upon Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. These "cosmic events" are often found in the OT and always proceed divine, pending judgment. Christ is merely borrowing the symbolism from Isaiah and Ezekiel. In Isa 13 we see the same "cosmic disturbances" which preceded the fall of Babylon which was clearly accomplished by the Medes (13:17). In Isa 34 we see the same "cosmic events" which preceded the destruction of the Idumeans. In Eze 32 we see these signs again preceding judgment on the Egyptians. Therefore these signs given by Christ were familiar to first century Jews and they would immediately understand them.

The fact that Christ "returned" (or His presence returned) in 70 AD to carry out the judgment against Israel was foretold in Zec 9:9 first as Messiah riding a donkey then in 9:14 we see the same symbolism as in Mat 24:27.

Compare Zec 9:14:

Then the Lord will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord God will blow the trumpet.."

with Mat 24:27:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Christ came in 70 AD to execute judgment on the wicked in Jerusalem, those who would not accept Him and who indeed pierced Him (as we shouldn't forget how many Romans also died in that conflict). He also came to protect and spare His believers, as every single Christian was spared.

The context of Mark 13, Mat 24, and Luke 21 was the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age, the Mosaic age, not the end of the world.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The "what" was this: "not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

The when was this: "the end of the age"

Notice the disciples placed the "sign of His Coming (Parousia - Presence)" before the end of the age? Thus they understood Christ's presence would return just prior to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem which would bring the Mosaic age to a close as predict by the OT prophets.

When Jesus answered, He spoke directly to His disciples telling them what they were to expect. He wasn't speaking to a bunch of 21st century dudes like us:

Take heed that no one deceives you
you will hear of wars and rumors of wars
See that you are not troubled
they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you
you will be hated by all nations

All of these things Christ was speaking to them directly, not to some other group. Christ goes on to identify those who would bring about Jerusalem (and Israel's) desolation.

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation.
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Christ continues and says this:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

"THE KINGDOM OF GOD WILL BE NEAR (His presence)."

Christ was clear, THAT generation (not some future generations) will witness EVERYTHING that He said. Why can't we accept the clear meaning that Jesus was speaking about the generation of His day and not some future generation thousands of years later?

Later, He specifically told the priests and elders who were judging Him this:

“It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

They were to witness His coming (parousia). If you read Paul's letters all of them promise comfort and the promise of Christ's imminent return. They expected to see it. Turns out they were right.

The Kingdom started as a mustard seed and would grow into a giant tree. The Kingdom would come without observation, right? Thus we are in the millennium (which simply means "long period of time"). The golden age of peace is reserved for the final state.

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

I'm sure I'm wasting my time, but let's try this.

When was Christ given the "kingdom?"

Dan 7: behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

This happened after His death, resurrection and ascension, right? This immediately follows Acts 1 and this scene takes place in heaven. Daniel saw it in his dreams.

The Kingdom is spiritual and invisible, it isn't physical and literal as you suggest.

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation.

If you can't observe it then it isn't visible.

If you look at the original Greek text, see the question which was really put to Christ:

They wanted to know about when His Presence would return to terminate the (Mosaic) age. With the destruction of the temple, the Jews have been unable to continue sacrificing. A Mosque was allowed to be built there to prevent them from ever building the temple again. Christ will never reign in an earthly temple again. He raised up the new temple in 3 days. It is this spiritual temple where He reigns.

Grace777x70 · May 7, 2017

Speaking of 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem - here is a look at that in terms of "what happened there". I like to use this site from time to time as it has a place where people ask questions at the bottom. I learn through those questions too.

Did God Kill the Jews in AD70?

For 2,000 years prominent Christian theologians such as John Chrysostom, John Calvin, Matthew Henry, John Gill, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, and others have taught that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was God’s doing.

One unfortunate fruit of this bad teaching has been a long history of Jewish massacres initiated by people who believed they were doing the Lord’s work, or at least following in his vengeful footsteps.

It’s bad fruit from a bad root. But why do so many believe that God was involved in the slaughter of the Jerusalem Jews? Because of this guy:

The long shadow of Josephus

Every Bible scholar has read Josephus’ account of the destruction of Jerusalem because it’s the only account. How do we know that a million Jews died or that the Romans built a barricade? Because Josephus tells us. It’s his version of the story that has been passed down through history, and according to Josephus the destruction of Jerusalem was God’s doing.

It was God who condemned the whole nation, and turned every course that was taken for their preservation to their destruction. (Wars, 5.13.5)

Why did Josephus point the finger at God? Because he was Jewish. As a Hebrew and a priest, Josephus was well acquainted with Jewish history. He knew all the old stories of how God used the Assyrians and Babylonians to besiege Jerusalem and punish the Jews for their sins. To his Jewish mind, the Romans were just another tool in the hands of an angry God.

Ignorant of all Christ accomplished on the cross, Josephus viewed God through an old covenant lens. If the Jews were being slaughtered, it was because God was angry with them. But why? Josephus had no answer beyond vague allusions to wickedness, unavenged deaths, and general impiety.

Enter the Christians.

I ask the Jews, whence came upon them so grievous wrath from heaven more woeful than all that had come upon them before? Plainly it was because of the desperate crime and the denial of the Cross.

According to John Chrysostom, the Archbishop of Constantinople whose words these are, God was mad at the Jews because they killed his Son. Isn’t that what Peter had said on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36)? And didn’t Paul say it too?

The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets… (1 Thess 2:14-15)

Connect the dots and it made perfect sense: Kill the Son and you’ll anger the Father. This was the line taken by Eusebius in the third century, Chrysostom in the fourth, and the many who followed their lead. But although the teaching came from Christians, its root was undeniably Jewish. The vengeful God was more Josephus than Jesus.

The brighter light of Jesus

Jesus said, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Josephus never saw the Son so he never saw the Father. He did not know that God had punished all sin on the cross so he concluded that God was punishing sin in Jerusalem. It was the wrong conclusion, but one that made sense to a priest raised on the old covenant.

Jesus was Jewish and he loved his countrymen. So did the apostles. They didn’t care for the Jews’ religion, but they certainly cared for the Jews.

“Brothers and fathers,” was how Paul addressed the Jews (Acts 22:1). They weren’t sinners but kin. Although Paul did say the Jews killed Jesus and the prophets, there wasn’t a vindictive bone in his body. His heart was for reconciliation not retribution. His countrymen were misguided for scorning grace, but rather than condemn them he wanted to trade places with them.

I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. (Rom 9:2-4)

Josephus abandoned his tribe and joined the enemy. In contrast, Paul wished he could be accursed so the Jews could be saved. Josephus had a racist theology that viewed the Jews as uniquely deserving of divine punishment, while Paul had a grace-based theology that saw the Jews in desperate need of salvation.

Brothers and fathers

Read the New Testament epistles and you sense a kinship between Christian and Jew. However, that began to change after AD70. The Christians fled, while the Jews stayed and from then on the distance between them only grew. This dissociation persists today in the way certain Christians speak about the fall of Jerusalem.

“The Jews had it coming.”

Only they didn’t. True, there had been a few who shouted at Christ’s trial, “His blood be on us and our children” (Matthew 27:25). But just because they said it doesn’t mean God did it. It is unthinkable that the One who sits on the throne of grace would punish the descendants of Abraham in this way.

Jesus said, “No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.” If so, the Jews cannot be charged with murder. Even if they did kill the author of life, their sin was borne by Jesus.

Any case against the Jews runs smack into the cross. If God condemned all sin on the cross, he would be unjust in condemning the Jews forty years later. Not only would he be punishing the wrong generation, he would be insulting his own Son.

Grace greater than your worst

I realize I am going against 2,000 years of mainstream teaching, not to mention a handful of badly-translated Bibles, but I am one-hundred percent certain about this. The image of a vindictive Jew-killing God is wholly inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus. It’s like saying:

– The Lamb of God carried the sin of the world (John 1:29), except for the Jews

– Jesus is the propitiation of the world’s sins (1 John 2:2), except for the Jews

– The punishment that brought us peace was on him (Isaiah 53:5), except for the Jews

– God condemned all sin at the cross (Romans 8:3), except for the Jews

– God keeps no record of sin (2 Corinthians 5:19), except for the Jews

– The Holy Spirit forgives all sins (Hebrews 10:17), except for the Jews

– Love your enemies (Matthew 5:44), except for the Jews

“Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34). God did not punish the Jews and he never had any intention of doing so. So why did Jesus ask for their forgiveness? He did it for us. Jesus wanted us to know that God loves his enemies and forgives even the worst of us.

Look at those words again. “Father, forgive them.” Jesus is not talking about orphaned refugee children; he’s talking about self-righteous prigs who murder in the name of God. He’s talking about men who stove in Stephen’s head with rocks and threw Jesus’ half-brother James off the top of the temple.

Father, forgive them.

Don’t you see? If God can forgive them, he can surely forgive you. Whatever you’ve done, God’s grace is greater.

This is why Jesus said it. This is what the Son of God wants you to know.

Here is the link if anyone is interested in the questions at the bottom.

https://escapetoreality.org/2016/10/21/did-god-kill-the-jews-in-ad70/

Here is another article talking about "Why Jerusalem fell".

https://escapetoreality.org/2014/01/27/why-did-jerusalem-fall/

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

I cannot stress enough how monumental the 70 AD destruction of the temple and ancient Jerusalem was. As important as Moses and the Law were, so also was the end of this age some 1,500 years later. We know that the end of the Mosaic age was near and the disciples knew it too because of passages like these:

but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams...

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come...

These passages do not deal with the end of time, but rather the end of the Jewish nation.

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

Sister Grace,

God absolutely passed judgment on the disbelieving Jews in 70 AD. Those men of distinction you list were correct, you are incorrect. The Bible teaches that there are two groups of Jews, the wheat and the tares, the sons of bondage and the sons of promise. We also know that believing Gentiles are grafted in with believing Jews and together become heirs to the promise.

Who do you think John the Baptist was speaking to here? Who is the wrath coming to?

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Who was Jesus speaking to here? What does the "sign of Jonah" mean?

But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah...

Who is being condemned? Do you realize that Jonah told Nineveh that they had 40 days to repent? Jerusalem was given 40 years and did not repent.

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

"Wrath upon what people? Whose wrath?

The wrath below is aimed at the unbelieving Jews.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

As Jesus was about to enter Jerusalem a week from His crucifixion He lamented over their judgment which would come at the hands of the Romans. Notice why the wrath was coming.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

They were punished with utter destruction why? Because they did not know the time of His visitation.

Agricola · May 7, 2017

It does not matter how many times I hear all the interpretations of the millennialist view, they never make sense especially when you factor in all the other events that have to take place.

The whole world will see the two witnesses killed in the street, everyone will celebrate and give presents to mark the event, however, the whole world we see them resurrected within 3 days and ascend to heaven. how would the whole world witness this before satellite TV broadcasts?

With all the evil in the world, we clearly are not in a 1000 year rule of utter peace with evil chained up.

I believe that this view was fabricated by evil men to justify slaughtering Jews and people continue today with this to justify armed opposition and terrorist attacks against the nation of Isreal.

garee · May 7, 2017

It was in relation to the end of the age, the “time of reformation” had come, the beginning of the tribulation that will end on the last day.We are in the spiritual millennium, a unknown, unseen amount of time marked by the metaphor thousand which represents a unknow, so that men might walk by faith. (no counting, no numbering)

That warning applied from that day forward. The time of Jacobs’s trouble had begun.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Heb 9:8

The last days are marked by the renting of the veil. The veil representing the system was still standing. No veil, all the stones of the system falls. The renting of the veil destroyed the old system. It introduced the New reformed testament.

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The time of the refomation shows that the outward unconverted Jew as antichrists. They deny Christ had come, making themselves anti christs.

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days, perilous times shall come.

1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.

The renting of the veil signaled it was the end of that age, the beginning of the last days

.

The renting of the veil and the apostate jews denial that the refomation had come marked the end of that age .we are in the last days of time.

God is not a man as us ,never was never will be. He remains without mother or father beginging of days or end of spirit life The one demonstration of the invisible working of the Holy Spirit being poured out came to a end

Every heart that is illuminated by the light of word of God will see him who has no form, with the eye of faith. God remains without form.We continue to walk by faith (the unseen)

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now "hencefort" know we him no more.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Agricola · May 7, 2017

Yes it is so easy to come up with different theology and to kill any kind of debate by just playing the "it is all spiritual" card

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

1 Thes 2:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, [SUP]16 [/SUP]forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Who was Paul writing about in the above? Now from where were the righteous believers to flee from in the below?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I wonder, why would the righteous be told to flee Judea? Was something bad about to happen there? What bad thing? This one?

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Indeed the siege and destruction of Jerusalem was the worst any country ever endured or ever will endure again. But He spared every single believer and none died, according to Josephus.

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

Agricola said:

Evil chained up? Is that what it says?

"...so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished..."

Seems to me to be about deception. Satan's surrogates were not chained so evil was not removed, deception was removed for a time. There is absolutely no peace taught during the "thousand years."

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Getting beheaded doesn't sound like peace to me. Who was living and reigning? Souls???? Where are souls found?

Are you suggesting that I want Jews slaughtered? Not me. I love the Jews and have been to Israel three times.

As for the two witnesses do you even know who are what they are? What do "olive trees" and "lampstands" symbolize?

PlainWord · May 7, 2017

Agricola said:

What does it mean that the "kingdom does not come with observation?" Are you able to see it?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

It's all about the spiritual my friend. We are so limited in our plain, trapped in our dimension and time. The spiritual is where the action is at.

Grace777x70 · May 7, 2017

Here is a view of the wrath of God from a New Covenant perspective as revealed through Jesus when He revealed the Father to us. Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said "No man knows the Father , I have come to reveal Him."

For those interested in this type of a subject - here is a message on the wrath of God. Understanding the wrath of God in these days is important and there are many facets to it yet to be discovered IMO.

[video=youtube;3vJiSMN_M10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vJiSMN_M10[/video]

Agricola · May 7, 2017

PlainWord said:

And like I said, you can make up any rubbish by claiming we can not see it and its all spiritual. Prophecy is clear that Christ will return as he came, that is coming down from the clouds and sit upon the throne in Jeruslem, so who has documented Christs return as he came back to earth? No one because it has not happened yet. Or is that spiritual as well, all too convenient that.

Ahwatukee · May 7, 2017

Agricola said:

Amen Agricola! To interpret the millennium as being spiritual as not being a literal thousand years, one can make up anything they want. To interpret it as such is by pure conjecture. I prefer to believe that it is a literal thousand years, as it repeats "a thousand years" six times.

Also, the end of the age has nothing to do with the reformation. But has to do with, yes, you guessed it, the end of the age. That generation leading up to Christ's return to the earth which is what ends the age.

tanakh · May 7, 2017

PlainWord said:

From what you say I conclude that you are a Partial Preterist which means that you believe in some sort of second coming
but not in the traditional way most people understand.

The Bible consists of a progressive revelation of Gods plan for humanity. It is written in various ways that include symbolism, types and figurative language. The Jews interpretated scripture using four levels of understanding the
first and most basic level is literal. The general rule is that any level of interpretation has to take into account the
literal meaning before the whole meaning of a verse or passage can be understood. Scriptural meanings are also obtained by comparing different passages with each other. The whole system is known as Midrash Jesus and the Bible writers knew of and used Midrash. The Holy Spirit also used Midrash in guiding them to write scripture.

The Bible teaches that there is a Physical realm and a Spiritual one. In the OT we read about the Exodus from Egypt to the promised land. No one disbelieves the Exodus story wasn't real but we also believe it is a figure of an individuals spiritual experience of the journey back to God. There are huge numbers of examples where familiar objects and events are used to explain spiritual realities. We accept most of them both literally and spiritually.

To say that Christ reigns spiritually now is true as far as believers are concerned but not for the countless millions who are not believers. The world is imperfect and getting worse to the extent that none believers are waking up to the fact that something is going to happen possibly soon

This is not the world of the Millennium promised through the Prophets. In the NT the Disciples are told that Jesus would return in the same way they saw him go. That way was visibly and in Zechariah it says he will set his feet on the mount of Olives. It also says that the dead will rise and those who remain will be transformed and meet him in the air at his second coming. There is no record of this happening so far whatever timing or interpretation anyone puts on it.

So I am still convinced in a future fulfillment of these things.

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