The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

[garee]

Oh, now you know more than Jesus because according to Jesus, this is the first resurrection:

Rev 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

And we know who takes part in this- those that were beheaded for their testimony about Jesus. We also know that their souls are resurrected, not bodies.

I'm now torn between you and Jesus, who should i listen.

I think that reference is pointing back to the anticipated glory of those in the Old testement who heard the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . The glory was revealed the grave were opened.. The first resurrection the same all believe enter when they pass form this life under the Sun. On the last day all will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies and be changed forever more.

The word thousand in that parable is a undetermned, unrevealed amount of what ever is in view .Time, people, food, God's love etc

They like us received the end from the beginning of the work of first hearing God, our first love of Him ,working in us by which we do know Him.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,Ezekiel 37:13

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

 

[Noose]

I think that reference is pointing back to the anticipated glory of those in the Old testement who heard the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . The glory was revealed the grave were opened.. The first resurrection the same all believe enter when they pass form this life under the Sun. On the last day all will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies and be changed forever more.

The word thousand in that parable is a undetermned, unrevealed amount of what ever is in view .Time, people, food, God's love etc

They like us received the end from the beginning of the work of first hearing God, our first love of Him ,working in us by which we do know Him.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,Ezekiel 37:13

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

You forgot this:

Rev 20: 4..... They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So it automatically qualifies Daniel and the rest of the OT saints.

 

[KJV1611]

I think that reference is pointing back to the anticipated glory of those in the Old testement who heard the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . The glory was revealed the grave were opened.. The first resurrection the same all believe enter when they pass form this life under the Sun. On the last day all will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies and be changed forever more.

The word thousand in that parable is a undetermned, unrevealed amount of what ever is in view .Time, people, food, God's love etc

They like us received the end from the beginning of the work of first hearing God, our first love of Him ,working in us by which we do know Him.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,Ezekiel 37:13

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

The first resurrection.

Edit - Part 1 of the first resurrection is what I should have said.

 

[SpoonJuly]

You are incorrect! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up God's wrath, as Jesus is the One who is opening the seals.

In all sincerity, you have no idea what you are talking about! First of all, the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as wrath in Revelation:

6th Seal announcement (includes all of the seals)

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

7th Trumpet

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. - Rev.11:17-18

Seven Bowl judgments

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." - Rev.15:1

The bowl judgments are said to be "Last" because with them God's wrath is completed. If the bowls are the "Last" of God's wrath, the other wrath would have to be "first" or before what is last, namely, the seals and the trumpets.

Obviously you don't understand that over half the earth's population is killed as a result of the 4th seal and 6 trumpet.

Of course I understand that over half of the earth's population is killed. But that means that many will survive.
Many saints will die and many will survive.

Obviously your understand is flawed after 40 years of study.

You still insist that what Jesus calls great tribulation is really God's wrath. In your eyes Jesus was lying or did not know what He was talking about.

You insist that when Paul said last trump, he was lying or did not know what he was talking about.

You can continue to put your on definition of words and personal spin on Scripture if you wish, but I will believe what Jesus said and what Paul said.

You are not half as wise as you have lead yourself to belief.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Greetings Noose,



Just fyi, that resurrection there is of the great tribulation saints who will have died during that last 3 1/2 years because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.

Also, the "first resurrection" has stages or phases to it:

* Jesus the first fruits - (1 Cor.15:22-23)

* The church at the Lord's appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The Male child/144,000 - (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)

* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

It is important to understand that "first resurrection" doesn't mean "Only Resurrection." Every resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years belongs to the first resurrection. It is the resurrection at the end of the thousand years that one would not want to be apart of, for that is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead who will be resurrected out of Hades.



It would be to your credit to take a look at the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection," which ONLY refers to the physical body standing up again. Below is the definition of anastasis:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance

anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising​

Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).


Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).


[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

In Rev.20:4, he first sees the souls of the great tribulation saints who were beheaded, then he sees them come to life i.e. resurrect, which would mean that their bodies are reanimated and their spirits are reunited with their resurrected bodies.

According to Phil.1:22-24 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for a resurrection is when the spirit returns to the body, not departs from it. When the resurrection of the church takes place, those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church will come with Christ where at which time their bodies will be resurrected and their spirits will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Jesus is our example of the resurrection. He died on the cross and His spirit departed from his body and went down to Sheol/Hades, which was the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were, that place of comfort. On the third day, Jesus' spirit returned to his body in the tomb and resurrected in the same body, albeit, immortal and glorified.

Opinions, opinions, opinions.

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for post your opinions as Bible truth.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I have raised a very valid and important point. Christians must ask themselves seriously if it is even possible for there to be any commonality between God's wrath and God's salvation.

1. Are the seven trumpet judgments connected with God's wrath? Absolutely.

2. Is the trump of God (the last trump) connected with God's ultimate act of salvation -- the resurrection and glorification of the saints who died, and the perfection, transformation, and glorification of the living saints? Absolutely.

So how can there be any possible relation between these trumpets, other than the word "trumpet"?

When is God's wrath announced from Heaven?
Not when men say His wrath has come, but when it is announced from Heaven.

Saint have suffered at the hands of the wicked from the beginning. Why should you or I be exempt?
What is so special about you, that you should be yanked out before the great tribulation begins?
Where is your faith that Jesus will protect you or will give you the grace to die a martyrs death?

Why do you not believe Jesus when He said great tribulation must come? Why do you believe He really meant wrath?
Why not just believe what the Scripture says and not try to make it say what will support your belief?

I belief exactly what Jesus and all Scripture says about the great tribulation, God's wrath, the gathering of the saints, and the second coming of Jesus.
If I am still alive when it begins, I have faith that God will protect me and bring me through, of if I must die, He will give me the grace to die proclaiming His glory as those in the past have.

 

[Icetech]

Sbepard's Chapel.com taught me that the Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

What does the Bible say on the topic? The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but the teaching that we will meet the Lord in the "air" is. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The timing of this event may be subject to debate.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why do you not believe Jesus when He said great tribulation must come?

I absolutely believe that the Great Tribulation (the day of the LORD) is a future event (the last half of Daniel's 70th week). I also believe that the Tribulation is for the unbelieving Jews, and will be the first half of 70th week (3 1/2 years). The first half will correspond to the total control of the world by Satan and the Antichrist.

But in order for that to happen, the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer of Satan) "must be taken out of the way". Since the Holy Spirit indwells the saints, it is both logical, rational, and theologically correct to believe that the Church and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way before Satan can take full control.

Furthermore, the coming of Christ for His saints is always shown to be IMMINENT in Scripture. Therefore it is not tied into either the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I absolutely believe that the Great Tribulation (the day of the LORD) is a future event (the last half of Daniel's 70th week). I also believe that the Tribulation is for the unbelieving Jews, and will be the first half of 70th week (3 1/2 years). The first half will correspond to the total control of the world by Satan and the Antichrist.

But in order for that to happen, the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer of Satan) "must be taken out of the way". Since the Holy Spirit indwells the saints, it is both logical, rational, and theologically correct to believe that the Church and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way before Satan can take full control.

Furthermore, the coming of Christ for His saints is always shown to be IMMINENT in Scripture. Therefore it is not tied into either the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation.

We are not told who the Restrainer is. May be and may not.
While the Holy Spirit indeed does indwell the saints, I disagree that it is logical, rational, and theologically correct to believe that the church and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way before Satan can take full control.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Imminence- doctrine. It's been preached for years from many a pulpit. I've never been entirely convinced though.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Imminence- doctrine. It's been preached for years from many a pulpit. I've never been entirely convinced though.

Imminence ignores to many Scriptures to be true.
My Dad said he never heard of it until the Pentecost folks began to preach in it he 1940s in our area of the world.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Imminence ignores to many Scriptures to be true.
My Dad said he never heard of it until the Pentecost folks began to preach in it he 1940s in our area of the world.

Please provide any scripture that ignores the imminency of Christ's return. I already know the ones that you are going to pick out. And the reason that they are wrong is because of the lack of understanding that the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events. As long as people continue to make them the same event, their end-time conclusions will be wrong.

 

[garee]

You forgot this:

Rev 20: 4..... They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So it automatically qualifies Daniel and the rest of the OT saints.

Daniel a Old Testament apostle reigned with Christ, the Holy Spirit of God just as any saint . Where Christ sent him he obeyed. It was not my intention to leave out the OT saints. And the word thousand in each time it is used in Revelation 20 is a unknown . If the reference you are speaking of is "did not receive the mark" .It is not a literal mark.as those that lived within the metaphoric period , thousand years. as a way of saying they reigned with Christ for a undetermined amount of time.

I would think no one literally reigns with Christ a literal thousand years. The thousand represents whatever time period they did reign with him .It could of been 1 day before they fell asleep with the rest who had part of the first resurrection when the graves were opened .

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[garee]

Imminence ignores to many Scriptures to be true.
My Dad said he never heard of it until the Pentecost folks began to preach in it he 1940s in our area of the world.

I think it would depend on how one measures, imminence.

According the measure of man, as the wisdom of this world, or the golden reed measure of God ,as the wisdom of God, hid from natural man.?

To one, one is too many. To another a thousand is not enough.

Some are waiting for him to appear in the flesh for another outward demonstration. Others understand and believe he is in us (our earthen bodies) not of us. Why would we be looking for God to be a man, as us? Why gaze up?

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

You could say as "earthen pitchers" to borrow a phrase of God he....pours out his love as we bring the gospel, the power of God unto salvation.

Lamentations 4:2 The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

He will come as a thief in the night. We as a kingdom of priest have the honor of watching .No man knows the year, day or hour when in the twinkling of the eye all will be changed, and immediately, not a thousand years later.... the former thing under the Sun will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

What we are today in these bodies of death is not even close to be what we will be when we do receive the end of our promise, our new incorruptible bodies as we shed these earthen bodies of death.

 

[Bladerunner]

When is God's wrath announced from Heaven?
Not when men say His wrath has come, but when it is announced from Heaven.

Saint have suffered at the hands of the wicked from the beginning. Why should you or I be exempt?
What is so special about you, that you should be yanked out before the great tribulation begins?
Where is your faith that Jesus will protect you or will give you the grace to die a martyrs death?

Why do you not believe Jesus when He said great tribulation must come? Why do you believe He really meant wrath?
Why not just believe what the Scripture says and not try to make it say what will support your belief?

I belief exactly what Jesus and all Scripture says about the great tribulation, God's wrath, the gathering of the saints, and the second coming of Jesus.
If I am still alive when it begins, I have faith that God will protect me and bring me through, of if I must die, He will give me the grace to die proclaiming His glory as those in the past have.

"Not when men say His wrath has come, but when it is announced from Heaven."

But you forgot one thing,,,,,,Rev 6:17..."For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?."




Is GOD's WORDs, not Johns, not the men on earth! God's WORD on Earth, in Hell, in the Air or in HEAVEN,,,It is still GOD's WORD!

 

[Icetech]

But in order for that to happen, the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer of Satan) "must be taken out of the way". Since the Holy Spirit indwells the saints, it is both logical, rational, and theologically correct to believe that the Church and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way before Satan can take full control.

Isn't this contrary to Bible verses such as Ezekiel 39:29; Isaiah 44:3; Joel 2:28-29? I would argue that there is a future perfect fulfillment of Joel 2 which would include verses 30-32.

 

[Bladerunner]

Imminence- doctrine. It's been preached for years from many a pulpit. I've never been entirely convinced though.

The Doctrine of Imminency is taught to throughout the Bible,

Definition of Imminency = "The condition of something good or bad about to occur at any time."

I have always found that it is best to be a good Berean, Acts 17:11....

1 Thessalonians 1:10; 4:18; 5:6; 1 John 3:2,3; Philippians 3:20; Revelation 22:17-21; Hebrews 9:28; Titus 2:13;

You will have to convince yourself.....Either you believe in the above WORD's of GOD or you don't.

 

[Bladerunner]

What does the Bible say on the topic? The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but the teaching that we will meet the Lord in the "air" is. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The timing of this event may be subject to debate.

The Latin version of the Bible has the word rapiemur (english version = Rapture) in it.

You Said: "What does the Bible say on the topic?"

Here are some passages that are for the Rapture Only and Not the 2 Advent of Jesus Christ. Those are different.


John 14:1-3; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 16:22; Col 3:4; 1 Thess 2:19; 1 Thess 5:9; 2 Thess 2:1; 2 Tim 4:1; 1 Peter 1:7, 13; Jude 21; Rev 3:10; Rev 2:25; 1 John 2:28; James 5:7-9; 1 Tim 6:14; 1 Thess 5:23; 1 Thess 4:13-17.


Be a good Berean (Acts 17:11) and find the truth in the above verses.

 

[Bladerunner]

We are not told who the Restrainer is. May be and may not.
While the Holy Spirit indeed does indwell the saints, I disagree that it is logical, rational, and theologically correct to believe that the church and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way before Satan can take full control.

The restrainer or Holy Spirit is not a matter for Eschatology but rather Ecclesiology. Care to discuss it?


Hope you have a blessed evening.

Blade

 

[tanakh]

I opened my Bible, started from scratch, disregarded the commentators and discovered that the gathering of the saints takes place at the seventh (last) trump second coming of Jesus.
How did you miss it?

Your flogging a dead horse. The system relies on scripture twisting very bad arithmetic and selective literalism. It also relies on on the inferred but often unstated beliefs that 1 They out of every other Christian know the real truth which is a major mark of a cult. If you know the history of this belief that is not suprising. 2 Anyone who doesnt believe all this is not saved.