The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

MarcR · Mar 22, 2018

That actually works quite well. Also, you are correct that Hebrew roots and JWs are very similar.

Bladerunner · Mar 23, 2018

Because In the Rapture,
We are gathering unto the LORD (2 Thes 2:1)
and in the 2nd Advent , His elect will come Back to earth with the Lord. All earthdwellers will see the Lord and the Elect.

I should have added 2 Thes 2:3 as it also pertains to the Rapture.

If you will look down to 2 Thes 2:8....This verse is considered alluding to the Return (2nd Advent) of our Lord.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 23, 2018

tanakh said:

It is obvious that you did not bother to read what I had written and that is your loss. You will remain on the same treadmill and continue to deny that God has an eternal plan for Israel as much as He has one for the Church. The Bible makes it clear that the Church is NOT Israel, and Israel is NOT the Church.

tanakh · Mar 23, 2018

MarcR said:

JWs are one of several 19th Century Cults that sprang up in that period. They all started in the US The notable exceptions are two that started in the UK of which only one still exists. That being the Exclusive Brethren. Unfortunately their teachings are still very much alive
and can be read about on CC

JaumeJ · Mar 23, 2018

All who truly believe, that is in spirit and truth are not only Jews but they are Israel.

How else could it be since the Good Shepherd has taught openly that He was going to unite that other flock (all gentiles who beliee) with the original Flock (Israel).

There is not going to be some kind of glorious apartheid society in the Kigndom....no way. We are His Children now, just as Jesus, never Jesus, but just like He. Now is not this too glorious to understand fully? Yet it is true and oh what a wonderful Kingdom we will have ...all blessings in Jesus (Yeshua.) amen.

MarcR · Mar 23, 2018

Lucy,

I bumped this to get your attention

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/164410-rapture-church-not-biblical-7.html

Bladerunner · Mar 23, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

Do you not understand or believe that every word in the Bible is GOD's WORDs....Whether it is spoken from Heaven, the earth, by an angel, or by man, it is still GOD's WORD

SpoonJuly · Mar 23, 2018

Bladerunner said:

So you believe that Gen. 3:4,5 is God's word and should be believed as truth?

Just because it is recorded in the Bible does not make it of God.
Satan's words and man's words are recorded in the Bible.
If you are to understand, you must recognize who is speaking, what they are speaking about, who they are speaking to,
Why they are speaking, and the time frame (past, present, future).

planitsoon · Mar 30, 2018

Trross11. Get this book bro. I was a Dispensationalist for 23 years until I found out (seven years ago now) the real history about the rapture and then I had to study out Dispensationalism as I knew it was the bigger picture and originated with Jezuit Fransisco Ribera in 1585 as the Pope ordered another interpretation of Revelation to get away from the stigma the Reformers had given him namely that he was the beast of Revelation. https://www.amazon.com/RAPTURE-DANG...sr=8-1&keywords=a+dangerous+deception+rapture Here is also an audio teaching on the history of this framework of interpretation. Enjoy brother! https://soundcloud.com/user-3967738/kelley-varner-the-history-of-dispensationalism

planitsoon · Mar 30, 2018

Rapture believers, (yep, its all about His coming and not our departure) I hope you enjoy this series of simple and logical questions on the end times called: Questions Most Dispensationalists Cannot Honestly Answer. 1) Why was Daniel told to seal the words of his prophecy for the time of the end (Daniel 12:4,9), but John was told to NOT seal his prophecy, because the time was at hand (Revelation 22:10)? 2) If Revelation was not to be sealed, but Daniel was to be sealed because it was for many days (Daniel 10:14), then many days are only 500 years, and if that is true, how can "at hand" be for 2000 years? 3) Is the new heaven and earth before the 1000 years (2nd Peter 3) or after the 1000 years (Revelation 21)? 4) Why is there no noticeable difference between the "rapture" texts and the "2nd coming" texts? 5) How can Jesus' kingdom be physical when Jesus rejected a physical kingdom in John 6:15 and Pilate did not believe he was going to establish a physical kingdom which would overthrow Rome (Luke 23:14)? 6) Why did Jesus go back to heaven after his resurrection, if he really wanted to establish an earthly kingdom? 7) Why didn't Jesus stay on earth if he wanted to establish an earthly kingdom? 8) How can Jesus' kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, when Jesus himself said the hour was coming when worshipping God would NOT be in Jerusalem (John 4:21)? 9) Why would Jesus' kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, knowing Jesus condemned their city several times (Matthew 21-25)? 10) Why would Jesus' kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, even though Paul said earthly Jerusalem was bondage and the old covenant (Galatians 4:24-25)? 11) How can Jesus' kingdom have not yet come, when John the baptist, Jesus Christ and the apostles all declared the "kingdom of God is at hand" (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7)? 12) How can Jesus' kingdom be seen by everyone when Jesus himself said it comes NOT with observation (Luke 17:20)? 13) How can Jesus' kingdom be seen by everyone when Paul said it is NOT meat and drink, but righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17)? 14) How can Jesus' kingdom be worldly/earthly, when Jesus himself said "My kingdom is not of this world" in John 18:36? 15) How can the "millennial" kingdom of God be of the Jews when Jesus himself said he took the kingdom away from them and gave it to the gentiles who produce the fruits (Matthew 21:43)? 16) If Jesus took the kingdom from the Jews and gave it to the gentiles, why is there no scripture to show another transfer back to the jews? 17) If God was going to go back to the jews/national Israel, why does Deuteronomy 28 vividly describe the events of 70 AD which proves that God DESTROYED national Israel forever because they rejected his ordinances and commandments? 18) Why is there not a shred of proof that modern jews are descendants of Abraham or the tribes of Israel? 19) Why is there much more evidence that modern jews are people descended from the gentile kingdom of Khazaria, who simply practice judaism? 20) If there is a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel, why doesn't Daniel, or any other scripture mention it? 21) Wouldn't that mean if there was a gap between the 69th and 70th week, according to Deuteronomy 18, that Daniel's prophecy did NOT come to pass as he said and therefore he was a false prophet? 22) If there is a 2000+ year gap between the 4th kingdom and the made up "5th kingdom" in Daniel 2 and 7, why doesn't Daniel or any other scripture mention it? 23) How can there be a 2000+ year gap between the 4th and "5th" kingdom, but all the previous kingdoms were consecutive with no gaps? 24) If the 70th week is still in the future, why did Jesus say "the time is fulfilled" in Mark 1:15? 25) If the 70th week is still in the future, why were there jews in expectation of the Messiah - Luke 3:15? 26) If the 70th week is still in the future, why did Jesus tell Peter to forgive his brother 70 times 7 in Matthew 18:22? 27) If the 70th week is still in the future, why does Daniel say Messiah would come after 69 weeks (483 years) and the prophecy began when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given in 456 BC? 28) Wouldn't that mean the 69th week ended in 27 AD and the 70th week began in 27 AD, when Jesus was 30 years old and was baptized? 29) If the 70th week is still in the future, why does scripture say Jesus confirmed the covenant in Galatians 3:17 which refers to Daniel 9:27? 30) If the 70th week is still in the future, why did Jesus' crucifixion, which was 3.5 years after his baptism (midst of the week), cause the sacrifices and oblations to fail/cease (Hebrews 7:27, 9:26)? 31) If the 70th week is still in the future, why exactly 3.5 years after Jesus' crucifixion (midst of the week), did the gospel go to the gentiles (Acts 13:46)? 32) If the 70th week is still in the future, why does the New Testament say that all the events of Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled when Jesus Christ came? 33) If "finishing the transgression" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Israel finished her transgression and filled up her sins and the measure of her fathers by killing the Messiah (Matt 21:33-45; Matt 23:29-36 cp Gen 15:16; I Thes 2:14- 16; Matt 3:7-12; Acts 3:13-15; 7:51-53; Dan 8:12,23)? 34) If an "end of sins" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Jesus made an end of sins by purging them away (Matthew 1:21; John 1:29; Acts 5:31; Rom 3:25; 8:3; Titus 2:14; Heb 1: 3; 9:26; 10:12,17; I Pet 2:24; I John 2:1-2; 3:5; Rev 1:5)? 35) If "reconciliation for iniquity" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Jesus made reconciliation for iniquity (Romans 5:10; II Cor 5:18-20; Ephesians 2:14-17; Col 1:21-22; Heb 2:17)? 36) If "to bring in everlasting righteousness" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness (II Cor 5:21; I Cor 1:30; Rom 3:25- 26; 5:17-21; 8:1-4; 10:4; Gal 2:21; 5:5; Eph 4:24; Phil 3:9; II Tim 4:8; II Pet 1:1; 3:13; Rev 19:8; 22:11)? 37) If "to seal up the vision and prophecy" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Jesus sealed up the vision and prophecy by blinding the Jews to understanding of the Scriptures (Is 8:16; 29:11; Daniel 8:26; 12:4; Matt 13:10-16; 22:29; Luke 24:44-47; John 12:37-41; Acts 3:17; 13:27; 28:23-29; Rom 9:32-33; 11:7-10,25; I Cor 1:22-23; 2:6-8; II Cor 3:14; I Pet 2:7-8; Revelation 10:4; 22:10)? 38) If "to anoint the Most Holy" is not yet fulfilled, why does scripture record Jesus was anointed as the most Holy at His baptism (Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 11:1-5; 42:1; 61:1-3; Matt 3:13-17; 12:28; 16:16; Mark 1:24; Luke 1:35; 4:16-21,34; John 1:29-34; 3:34; 6:69; 10:36-38; 11:27; Acts 4:27; 10:38; Heb 1:9; I John 5:6)? 39) If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does Jesus pray for the exact opposite thing to happen (that the church would NOT be taken out of the world) in John 17:15,20? 40) If God is going to give the "land" to the jews in the future millennium, how can he possibly keep that promise, when it is also taught He will burn up the entire earth at the 2nd coming? 41) Wouldn't that mean it wasn't the land He promised them? 42) If there is no physical death in the new heaven and earth, why does Isaiah 65:20 say the child will die at 100? 43) If the teaching that 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years = 1 day to the Lord (2nd Peter 3:8) is how we are to read time in scripture, does that mean that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is a single 24 hour day? 44) If the teaching that 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years = 1 day to the Lord (2nd Peter 3:8) is how we are to read time in scripture, does that mean the church of Smyrna would have tribulation for 10,000 years (Revelation 2:10)? 45) If the teaching that 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years = 1 day to the Lord (2nd Peter 3:8) is how we are to read time in scripture, does that mean Jesus was in the grave for 3,000 years (Matthew 12:40)? 46) If the teaching that 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years = 1 day to the Lord (2nd Peter 3:8) is how we are to read time in scripture, does that mean it took the disciples 6,000 years to reach the mount of transfiguration (Matthew 17:1)? 47) If the teaching that 1 day = 1000 years and 1000 years = 1 day to the Lord (2nd Peter 3:8) is how we are to read time in scripture, does that mean Jesus was tempted of the devil for 40,000 years (Luke 4:2)? 48) If time means nothing to God, why does God constantly use time restricted statements such as shortly, at hand, near, quickly, end of all things, last times, last hour, last days, last day, this generation, etc? 49) If time means nothing to God, why does God consider 70 years a long time (Jeremiah 29:10,28)? 50) If time means nothing to God, why would He give Daniel a 70 week prophecy (Daniel 9:24)? 51) If time means nothing to God, why did God create a 7 day week (Genesis 1-2)? 52) If time means nothing to God, why would He command the Israelites to keep appointed feast days which they knew by the month they were in (Leviticus 23:34)? 53) If time will end after the new heaven and new earth, why does the tree of life produce fruit every month (Revelation 22:2)? 54) If the great tribulation (Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21) is GLOBAL, why did Jesus only tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16)? 55) If the great tribulation (Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21) is GLOBAL, why did Daniel only refer to it occurring to those who were the “children of thy people”? 56) If Jesus' purpose for coming in the flesh was to destroy the devil (Hebrews 2:14, 1st John 3:8), and Paul said Satan would be crushed under the Romans' feet shortly in the 1st century (Romans 16:20), how can Satan still be here? 57) Did Jesus forget to destroy Satan and decide to let Satan linger 2000 years longer? 58) If the 2nd coming of Jesus is Jesus coming in a physical, fleshly body, why does Paul say we would know Christ after the flesh no more (2nd Cor. 5:16)? 59) If the 2nd coming of Jesus would be the world seeing him coming in a physical body, why does Jesus say "In a little while and the world will see me no more" in John 14:19? 60) Why did the high priest accuse Jesus of blasphemy for saying he would come in the clouds sitting on the right hand of power (Matthew 26:64-65)? 61) If Jesus has not returned, then why do people say Christians go to heaven and the wicked go to hell at death? 62) If Christians go to heaven and the wicked go to hell at death, wouldn't that mean that salvation, redemption and judgment has already come to the world? 63) If Christians go to heaven and the wicked go to hell at death , then doesn't scripture prove Jesus has returned? 64) If most bible prophecy has not been fulfilled or is being fulfilled today, why doesn't ANY New Testament scripture say its fulfillment would be 2000 years later, but rather speak about it being fulfilled in their lifetime? 65) If the book of Revelation is for us today in the year 2005, does that mean it was NOT to the 7 churches in Asia, which Revelation says it was written to? 66) If the book of Revelation is for us today in the year 2005, does this mean John was writing to figments of his imagination, since it didn't apply to the 1st century churches? 67) Why would John write to those 7 churches in the 1st century if it had nothing to do with them? 68) If "at hand" in scripture doesn't really mean anything, why would Jesus warn his disciples to not go after false Christs who say "the time is at hand" (Luke 21:8)? 69) How could they tell when the time would be at hand versus when it was not at hand if at hand means 2000 years or longer? 70) Go to end of page to read special question No. 70 71) Why isn't there a single scripture that says Christ's coming was "not at hand"? 72) If "delay" means nothing in scripture, why does Jesus say the evil servant says the lord delays his coming (Matthew 24:48)? 73) How could Jesus possibly accuse someone of being an evil servant, if delay doesn't mean anything? 74) How could his 12 disciples know who was false, if delay isn't in "human time"? 75) Why does Hebrews 10:37 say that "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not delay"? 76) Why does Paul say that nobody has immortality until the 2nd coming of Christ and therefore cannot go to heaven until the 2nd coming? (1st Timothy 6:14-16, 1st Corinthians 15:51-54)? 77) If Elijah the prophet has not yet come, why did Jesus say emphatically in 2 plain scriptures (Matthew 11:7-15, 17:10-13) that John the baptist was "Elijah who was to come"? 78) If Elijah the prophet has not yet come, does that mean Jesus isn’t the Messiah? 79) If Elijah the prophet didn’t come, even though Jesus said he did come, does that mean Jesus lied or mislead his own disciples? 80) If antichrist is a single person who is a world leader in the end of time, why doesn't a single scripture speak about it? 81) If there is a 7 year tribulation in the future, why doesn't scripture speak about it? 82) If the beast can be mortally wounded and be raised from the dead by Satan (Revelation 13:3), wouldn't that mean Satan can do something ONLY God can do (John 6:39-40)? 83) If the 144,000 from Revelation 7 and 14 are still yet in the future, jewish virgins, why do John, Paul and James speak about them as already in existence (Romans 16:5, 1st Cor 16:15, James 1:1,18)? 84) If the 144,000 from Revelation 7 and 14 are still yet in the future, why are they described as FIRSTFRUITS? 85) If the 144,000 from Revelation 7 and 14 are the FIRSTFRUITS, wouldn't that show they are the FIRST and not the last Christians? 86) If the last days are today in 2005, why did Peter and Paul both say the last days were in their lifetime (Acts 2:16-17, Hebrews 1:1-2)? 87) If the end of the world (age) is still in the future, why does Hebrews 9:26 declare the end of the world (age) was present day in the 1st century? 88) If the age we are living in will end in the future, then why does Ephesians 3:21, Hebrews 12:21-28 say the Christian age has no end? 89) If the bible is to be read 100% literally, why are terms like at hand, quickly, shortly, etc and the original audience (Romans, Corinthians, etc) not read literally? 90) If the marriage supper of the lamb is after the rapture, why does scripture say it happens after Mystery Babylon is destroyed (Revelation 19)? 91) Wouldn't that mean the rapture happens after Mystery Babylon's destruction, thus meaning it is "post-trib"? 92) If the parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) is the fleshly nation of Israel becoming a nation again, what about the same parable in Luke 21:29-30 which says "behold the fig trees and all the trees"? 93) Wouldn't that mean that Israel (the fig tree) becomes a nation again and ALL the other nations (all the trees) become nations again? 94) Did ALL the other nations become nations again in 1948? 95) If a person believes that Christians are the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), and NOT fleshly jews (Matthew 3:9, John 8:44), why do dispensationalists call those who believe it "anti-semitic"? 96) What do you call a person who begs you to send money to get as many jews to the land of Israel (Wings of Eagles), but they do so with the belief that 2/3 of those jews will be slaughtered in a future tribulation (Zechariah 13:7-9)? 97) Wouldn't people who supports a future holocaust be considered pre-meditated murderers?. 98) Wouldn't that be more "anti-semitic" than calling the church Israel? 99) If there is going to be a rebuilt jewish temple in the future, why does scripture say God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands anymore (Acts 7:48, 17:24)? 100) If there is going to be a rebuilt jewish temple in the future, why did God destroy the 2nd temple in AD 70? 101) If there is going to be a rebuilt jewish temple in the future, why are they trying to build it on the old Roman fortress of Antonia (the wailing wall)? 102) If heaven and earth have not passed away yet, does that mean not one jot or tittle has passed from the law and Jesus did not fulfill it yet (Matthew 5:17-18)? 103) If we are in the new covenant, which scripture says is forever, why would God go back to a temple system of the old covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)? 104) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why does John give time statements throughout the book pointing to imminent events which fit the description of Jerusalem's destruction from Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17/21? 105) If Revelation would occur thousands of years after it was written, why does John say the 6th king is the one who "is" which would mean his present day? 106) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why was he told to measure the temple, if the temple was already destroyed? 107) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why was John told how long the Gentiles would tread down the city (Revelation 11) which Jesus referred to in Luke 21:24 which were the events from 67-70 AD? 108) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why is there nothing mentioned about the destruction of Jerusalem? 109) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, how could there be other apostles alive (Revelation 2:2), when all the apostles except John were dead before 70 AD? 110) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, how could there be jews persecuting Christians (Revelation 2:9,3:9) which would have been impossible after the destruction of Jerusalem? 111) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why were there 2 different numbers used to calculate the same beast in Revelation 13:18 (616 and 666) which pointed to Nero? 112) What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? 113) If God has 2 different plans for jews and gentiles, why does Paul say there isn't any more distinction (Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11)? 114) Why did Jesus break the wall of partition between jews and gentiles (Ephesians 2:14) if there is going to be a partition in a future millennium? 115) If there are no signs for the rapture, why did Paul say there were (1st Thessalonians 4:15-5:9, 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12)? 116) If the rapture is mentioned in Matthew 24, where is the 2nd coming mentioned in Matthew 24? 117) If Jesus said nobody knows the day or hour of his coming, and that means we cannot know when he is coming, why did Jesus spend 31 verses telling them what to watch for? 118) Why would Paul compare His coming to being like a pregnant woman (1st Thessalonians 5:3)? 119) Does a pregnant woman know the "day or hour" of giving birth? 120) Does a pregnant woman understand she would give birth within 9 months? 121) If that is true, then does that mean they could know his coming would happen within a certain period of time such as "this generation" (Matthew 24:34)? 122) If Jesus cannot come until the gospel is preached to every single person in the world, will he ever come, since the world's population doubles every 18 years and those who haven't heard the gospel yet are more people than the entire world during the time of Jesus? 123) What about women who are pregnant today and in the future, does that mean that as long as there are pregnant women every day, that the gospel cannot be "preached" to every single person? 124) If the gospel cannot be preached to every single person, does that mean that Jesus could never come back? 125) If the great commission (Mark 16:15) is not yet fulfilled, why did Paul say it was fulfilled in Romans 1:8, 10:18, 16:26, Colossians 1:5-6, 23?

planitsoon · Mar 30, 2018

126) If the new Jerusalem is a physical location, how was it possible that the Hebrews in the 1st century were already there (Hebrews 12:22) if it had not come down yet? 127) If the mark of the beast is a microchip or physical tattoo, does that mean the seal of God is also a microchip or a tattoo? 128) How can the zionist movement to restore Israel be fulfillment of Israel being gathered, when scripture says they cannot be gathered except in a state of repentance (Jeremiah 50:4-5)? 129) Was the zionist movement in 1948 in a state of repentance? 130) If Revelation was written after 70 AD, why is there no evidence to prove it? 131) Why are there some who claim Israel did not get all their land yet? 132) Why does scripture record they got all the "land promises" to Abraham (Genesis 15:18 and 22:17) which were fulfilled, because God kept his promises? - (Joshua 11:23; 21:23-25, 1 Kings 4:20-21, Nehemiah 9:7-8, and Psalm 105:42-44) 133) If the promises to Israel are forever and unconditional, why does God say it is conditional in Deuteronomy 28? 134) If the man of sin (2nd Thessalonians 2:3) is still in the future, why did Paul say the man of sin was alive in the 1st century (the mystery of iniquity doth already work)? 135) If dispensationalism has been of the "historic" Christian faith, why was it unheard of prior to the 1830's? 136) If Jesus was going to physically come in the clouds as he left, why did the angel tell them he would come in a like manner (not the exact same way) (Acts 1:11)? 137) If the angel told the men of Galillee that they would see Jesus come in a like manner (Acts 1:11), then does that mean he came while the "men of Galillee" were still alive in the 1st century? 138) If John told the 7 churches in Asia that "behold he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him, also those who pierced him" in Rev 1:7, does that mean those who killed Jesus would be alive when Jesus returned? 139) If God was going to go back to animal sacrifices for sin in a future millennium, does that mean Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21)? 140) If "this generation" in every scripture meant the people Jesus was speaking to and about, then how can "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 be talking about people thousands of years later? 141) If prophetic language is LITERAL, does that mean Mount Sinai melted at the presence of the Lord, since the hills melt at the presence of the Lord (Nahum 1:5)? 142) If there is no more sun in the new heaven and earth, does that mean the Lord's name does not endure forever (Psalms 72:17)? 143) If there is no more moon in the new heaven and earth, why does Isaiah 66:23 say all flesh would worship God from one new moon to another? 144) If prophetic language is LITERAL, why did none of the cosmic events described in Isaiah 13 literally happen when it was fulfilled according to Daniel 5? 145) If the "whole world" in scripture means "every single person on the globe", did Paul say that people from North and South America, Antartica, Asia, Africa spoke about the faith of the 1st century Romans (Roman 1:8)? 146) If "caught up" in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 means Jesus will physically take the church out of the planet earth, did the man mentioned in 2nd Corinthians 12 also physically fly off planet earth when it says he was "caught up"? 147) If the resurrection is on the last day (John 11:24), but the Christian age has no last day (Ephesians 3:21), then when is the resurrection? 148) If the resurrection is still in the future, why did Jesus say in John 5:25, "the hour is coming and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God and they that hear shall live"? 149) If the resurrection is still in the future, why did Daniel say it would be fulfilled when the power of the holy people was completely shattered, which could only be Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD? 150) If death is physical, why does Paul say death is of sin and the law in 1st Corinthians 15:56? 151) If death is physical, why does Jesus say those who live and believe in him will never die? 152) If death is not physical, then how can the resurrection which redeems us from death be physical? 153) If the resurrection was about physically dead bodies coming out of physical graves, why did Jesus and Paul say the resurrection was about identifying who the people of God were (Luke 20:36, Romans 8:13-25, 2nd Timothy 2:19)? 154) If John was told to "come up hither" in Revelation 4:1, did he physically leave the planet? 155) If not, why do people use Revelation 4:1 to "prove" the rapture of the church? 156) Why do people say the church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1, when Revelation 22:16 says it was written to the churches? 157) If there is no sin in the new heaven and earth, how can there still be sinners in it (Isaiah 65:20)? 158) If those who are "taken" in the rapture according to Matthew 24:40-41 are the righteous, why does the bible say the WICKED were taken in Matthew 24:39? 159) Why should we read the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 as literal, knowing that the number thousand has significant meaning as to completion, perfection, etc (Deut 7:9, 1st Chr 16:15, Psalms 50:10, 105:8)? 160) If God was going to go back to physical Jews in the future, why doesn’t the new testament speak about it? 161) If the bible is to be read 100% literally, why do some dispensationalists say the 7 churches in Asia (Revelation 1-3) are “church ages” and not “literal” churches? 162) If there are 7 church “ages” in Revelation 1-3, why doesn’t scripture speak about it? 163) If “shortly” means “2000 years or longer”, does that mean it was going to take Timothy 2000 years to be sent to us by Paul (Philippians 2:19)? 164) If Daniel was told to seal up his words for the time of the end (Daniel 12:4,9), and Jesus quoted (unsealed) Daniel 12:1-8, wouldn’t that mean the time of the end was in the 1st century? 165) If the world is really getting worse and worse and the end is in the next few years, why do dispensationalists get married? 166) Wouldn’t that mean they really do NOT believe the end is near, because Paul said the time was short and those who had wives will be as though they had none (1st Cor. 7:29)? 167) If the world is really getting worse and worse and the end is in the next few years, why do dispensationalists have children? 168) Wouldn’t that mean they really do NOT believe the end is near, because Jesus said woe to them with child and who give suck in those days (Matthew 24:19)? 169) Wouldn’t it be very cruel of them to bring a child into a world they honestly believe is getting “worse and worse”? 170) If Jesus’ 2nd coming is as a thief, how can he come loudly, visibly that the world can see him coming? 171) Wouldn’t a thief come as quietly as they could, so nobody knew he came except the people he warned prior to his coming? 172) If Jesus’ 2nd coming is as a thief, wouldn’t that mean that nobody knew he came, since nobody knows when a professional thief has come in the night? 173) If nobody knew Jesus’ came, except his followers (John 14:22-23), wouldn’t it be very possible that the world didn’t know he came at all? 174) If Paul said wolves would enter into the church, teaching perverse things and raising up disciples after themselves (Acts 20:28-31), isn’t it possible that they taught a false eschatology, which is why a majority of the “creeds” afterward missed the 2nd coming? 175) If the jews in the 1st century missed the first coming of Jesus because of their ignorance of the scriptures (Mark 12:24), isn’t it entirely possible that Christians living in the 21st century have missed the 2nd coming of Jesus for the same reason? 176) Why would the gates of New Jerusalem be left open if everything outside this city is destroyed (Revelation.21:25)? 177) If everyone outside these gates were burned up, and there is nobody left alive outside these gates, why are there people still entering through the gates into the city after the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven (Revelation 21:24)? 178) If the resurrection is physical, why did Jesus say those who are resurrected are like the angels of heaven (Matthew 22:30)? 179) Aren’t the angels of heaven “ministering spirits” - Hebrews 1:14? 180) Why do dispensationalists say we are: on earth…. when we die, we go to heaven…. at the rapture, we come back to earth…. at the rapture we go back to heaven…. at the 2nd coming we come back to earth 7 years later to be there for 1000 years…. after the thousand years, we go to a new heaven and earth? 181) If the world is going to end, why does the bible say it will NEVER end? (Genesis 8:21-22, Psalms 78:69, 89:36-37, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 119:90, 148:4-6, Isaiah 45:17, Eccl. 1:4, Ephesians 3:21) 182) If "like manner" is exactly how Jesus would return as he left in Acts 1:11, does that mean Jesus left while all the tribes of the earth (land) were wailing (Zech. 12:10, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7)? 183) If "like manner" is exactly how Jesus would return as he left in Acts 1:11, does that means Jesus left riding a white horse (Revelation 19:11)? 184) If "like manner" is exactly how Jesus would return as he left in Acts 1:11, does that mean Jesus left judging every man according to his works (Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12)? 185) If "like manner" is exactly how Jesus would return as he left in Acts 1:11, does that mean Jesus left and raised the dead in Christ (1st Thess. 4:16-17)? 186) If "like manner" is exactly how Jesus would return as he left in Acts 1:11, does that mean Jesus left with a sword coming out of his mouth (Revelation 19:15)? 187) If the end of the age is still in the future, why in Matthew 13:39, 24:3 does it say it was in the future, but only 30 years later, in Hebrews 9:26, the end of the age was present day? 188) How can people justify the end of the age stretching beyond its 30 year fulfillment? 189) If Israel and the Christian church are 2 different groups of people who have 2 separate covenants, and the hope of Israel is the resurrection (Acts 23:6, 24:14-15, 26:6-8), why is it taught Christians will experience any type of resurrection, being that it was only for Israel? 190) If the Christians will be resurrected, but the hope of Israel is the resurrection, and the resurrection is the hope of the believer (Romans 8:25, Titus 2:13), would that not clearly prove that the believer in Jesus Christ is considered Israel (Galatians 6:15-16)? 191) If dispensationalists can believe in an invisible, spiritual coming of Christ for the "rapture", then why do they condemn preterists for teaching in that very same nature of fulfillment in 70 AD? 192) If dispensationalists accuse preterists of being outside the creeds of the Christian faith, because they disagree with the eschatology of the creeds, would that mean that dispensationalists are also outside the creeds of the Christian faith, since they also do not agree with the eschatology of the creeds? (The Nicene creed says Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead, yet dispensationalists say Christ will come again in the rapture and will NOT judge the living and the dead). 193) If Jesus and the apostles all taught Jesus' coming was thousands of years away (as dispensationalism teaches), why were the Thessalonians so upset about their loved ones who died before the coming of Christ (1st Thess. 4:13)? 194) Is it possible that the inspired apostle Paul told them Jesus was coming in their lifetime, which is why they were upset when some of them died before Christ came? 195) Did Paul mislead the Thessalonians if he taught them Jesus was coming in their lifetime, but Jesus didn't really come in their lifetime? 196) If Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be alive when Christ comes (as he writes it), yet they all died and Christ still hasn't come for 2000 years, does that mean Paul's writings are NOT inspired? 197) If Paul had taught the churches to believe in a physical resurrection, how could Hymaneus have overthrown the faith of some so easily, saying the resurrection was past already (2nd Timothy 2:17-18)? 198) If Hymaneus told them the resurrection was past already, and they believed in a physical resurrection, wouldn't they have looked in their local cemetaries to see that the bodies were still in the graves, and therefore, their faith could not be overthrown? 199) If Hymaneus taught a different nature of the resurrection than Paul did, why did Paul only condemn the fact Hymaneus was off on the timing? 200) If "at hand" is the correct translation of "eniste?mi" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2, and it says to NOT believe a letter "as from" the apostles that say the day of Christ is "at hand", does that mean we should NOT believe that Romans, James, Phillipians, Hebrews, Revelation, 1st Peter are inspired from the apostles, since they all declare the "day" was "at hand"? 201) If "mello" is translated "about to" in Revelation 10:4 in the KJV, why isn't it translated "about to" in most other texts including prophetic texts in the KJV? 202)If "mello" was translated consistently correct in scripture, then wouldn't that mean there was no doubt as to the time restriction of the Parousia? 203)If the 1900 year "gap" in the 70 weeks was a "secret" that was withheld from Daniel and other prophets, why does Amos 3:7 say God reveals his SECRETS to his servants the prophets? 204) If God reveals his secrets to his servants the prophets, and his prophets don't mention a 1900 year "gap" in Daniel's 70 weeks, then doesn't that mean there is NO gap in the 70 weeks? 205) If Daniel 12 is still in the future, does that mean that "children of thy people" in verse 1 and "the holy people" in verse 7 are the jews living today? 206) If the jews living today are the "holy people" of Daniel 12:7, yet it is taught that God will never destroy the jews and they will keep their land and power forever, then how can the "holy people" have their power completely shattered? 207) If the "holy people" being the jews cannot have their power completely shattered ever, then does that mean that there cannot be a great tribulation (12:1), resurrection of the just and unjust (12:2), the righteous shining forth as the firmament (12:3)? 208) What purpose would it serve for Jesus to come back physically and visibly? 209) Why would Jesus have to come back in the flesh to reign on the earth? 210) Why would Jesus say he would abode with the Father in the believer if Jesus was coming back physically? 211) If Jesus was not omni-present (everywhere at one time) while he was in the flesh, does that mean Jesus won't be omni-present if he comes again in the flesh? 212)If the rapture or 2nd coming is when we shall "see Him as he is", why do those who believe it, say people can go to heaven when they die? 213) Does that mean when they die and go to heaven, they won't "see Him as he is"? 214) Or does it mean that they will "see Him as he is" 2 different times? 70) If Christ was actually in His eternal physical resurrection body, will we be raised with the same physical body and likeness as Christ was raised with (1 John 3:2) Was He physical? Will we have that same physical body? Was he any age? What age? Will we be the same age as Christ? Will we too have scars that we had previously? Christ did. Will we all be raised male? Christ was. What about babies? Will they be raised as babies? Or will all people suddenly be raised at the prime age of 30 like Christ? What about the food Christ ate? Obviously it took teeth to chew. You may ask, "why did you put the 70th question after the 214th question?" Well, I'm only using the same fallacy of logic dispensationalists use when applying the 70 weeks of Daniel... just consider in the intervening questions part of a gap between the 69th and the 70th! ________________________________________

planitsoon · Mar 30, 2018

Amen SpoonJuly, most people ignore time lines and audience relevance and apply everything left right and centre to themselves like real narcists. "today" is not always our day for example in Gen.47:26. There is no pharaoh anymore in Egypt. The same with phrases like "these days" which referred 2000 years ago to their time as they didnt say, "those days" future. "This is the last hour", "this generation" not that generation (future) etc. Jesus was revealed in te fullness of time, now 2000 years ago. Fullness is at the end or culmination of a period. What period or time? The time of the end of the Old Covevant also called last days s they Jews had been waiting since Daniel 9 (70 weeks or 7x70 = 490 years) for the Prince Messiah to come and usher in a New Kingdom as prophesied in Daniel 2, the little rock that crushed the statue and would grow out into a big mountain. Matthew 24 was written to Jews - pray it wont happen on a Sabbath, was local - flee to the mountains of Judeah (not to any mountain of your choosing) and timely, this generation, Jesus immediate audience. Anyone has a ticket ready yet to get the Mt of Judeah? If you think you can change the term mountains of Judeah to global mountains around the world etc we might as well change the New Jerusalem to the New New York. While the Bible was written FOR us, not everything is written TO us. We also say that every church of every generation must have a man sleeping w the wife of his father just like in Corinth. Why no, because that is too obvious and yet, we apply many other things without proper reading. Lucky we know from history that when Cestius withdrew that the Christians fled to Pella in Perea in the mountains of Judeah. The Atch if Titus in Rome is still a reminder of what happened in Matthew 24. Days of Vengeance of Padfield is a freely to read online and shows you all the historic writers and what they wrote down about the wars, the false prophets that arose in the end times, the nine eart quakes that happened etc etc. There is no use for God to fulfill matthew 24 all over again and judge this the whole world for what He judged that first generation of Jews already according to Matthew 23:35 where Jesus said tyhat all the blood from righteous Abel to Zacharia would come on their heads and that not one stone would be left on top of one another. We know who ploughed the temple field, Rufus amd the wailing wall is the last standing wall of the Romans Ford Antonia that the Romans build tp oversee things after they destroyed the temple in 70AD. The Colisium in Rome was build with the gold of the temple that the Romans brought down. Jesus words got literally fulfilled and we have history and archeology to back it up. So good!

Ahwatukee · Mar 30, 2018

Greetings Planitsoon,

Nebuchadnezzar's statue is representing all human Gentile governments, the head representing Babylon, the two arms and chest representing Medo/Persia, the belly and thighs being Greece, the legs of iron being Rome and the ten toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being an extended or revived Roman empire. The ten toed kingdom is synonymous with the ten horns on the dragon in Revelation 17, which repents those ten kings who receive kingdoms after just a short time with the beast and give their power and authority to him. The point is that we haven't gotten to that ten toed kingdom yet, which means that it is still future.

The reference to the Rock, becoming a huge mountain and filling the whole earth, is referring to Jesus millennial kingdom. The smashing of the feet will be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the population and dismantle all human government. By the time Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, by my guestimation, there will maybe be 10% of the earths population left.

The above is regarding the abomination being set up in the coming temple in the middle of that last seven years, which is also future and is synonymous with the woman/Israel fleeing out to the wilderness where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

That last seven years is quickly approaching and is when the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place , but prior to that, the church must be gathered because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Ahwatukee · Mar 30, 2018

planitsoon said:

We've here this before many times. The problem is, Fransisco Ribera did not write the word of God, which is where I get my information regarding the gathering of the church and not by the writings of men. We've heard the same regarding Margaret MacDonaldo, Scofield, etc., which I have never read anything by any of them. Your advice to "Get this book" is the crux of the problem and the fulfillment of the following prophecy:

"The time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths."

Today people are trusting in the writings of men, YouTube, web-sites, seminars, etc., instead of the word of God. I didn't get my understanding of the gathering of the church from anyone, but from my own studies in the word of God.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 30, 2018

planitsoon said:

At the time Paul was writing the epistle to the Hebrew (c 65 AD) the New Jerusalem was in Heaven and all the OT saints were there (having been taken from Sheol/Hades to Heaven by Christ after His resurrection). The New Jerusalem only descends from Heaven AFTER the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Note: You will need to compose paragraphs in order to allow people to read what you write.

so-jesus-e-deus · Mar 30, 2018

The Rapture of the Church is described by Paul:

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Thess 4.15-17).

Chester · Mar 30, 2018

so-jesus-e-deus said:

But the word "rapture" is not in that passage -- can't be right!! LOL!

Well, I think I Thess. 4 does refer to the rapture - but we can call it the "caughtupture" if you don't like the word "rapture"

JaumeJ · Mar 30, 2018

Rapture just as Trinity is not in the Word....

There is the time coming as posted by me and by others that when Jesus appears on teh clouds He will send out His angels to gather first those who are asleep in Jesus Christ and then those who are yet quick (alive.)

This will be the last day of this age as we know it.........nowhere does it describe anything approaching the circumstances given in the movies claiming to be about that event. There will not be people "left behind," there will not bge peple asking "where is everybody," everyone will know exactly what is going on.l

The idea of rapture as most purport it is enfantile were it not diabolical.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 30, 2018

JaumeJ said:

Why are you deliberately confusing the Rapture with the second coming of Christ? The elect mentioned in Matthew 24 are the believing Jewish remnant, not the Church. Now please note carefully as to why the Rapture is not the same as the Second Coming:

THE RAPTURE -- NO MENTION OF ANGELS, JUST THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

THE SECOND COMING -- ANGELS GO IN ALL DIRECTIONS TO GATHER THE ELECT
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

THE SECOND COMING -- UNIVERSAL MOURNING
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Noose · Mar 30, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Total confusion

Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.......
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Rev 20:5 talks of the first resurrection and Rev 13 talks of the second resurrection. What resurrection are you talking about?

The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

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