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P
I outlined the method I approach end times study,as well as the postrib model.
Even they tell me their main doctrine is "antipretrib".
That is why we are ABLE to explore far beyond you guys.
We do not limit our resources.
Postrib begins is a limited arena,then parks there.
Desperation would be going extrabiblical. That realm belongs to postrb
Even they tell me their main doctrine is "antipretrib".
That is why we are ABLE to explore far beyond you guys.
We do not limit our resources.
Postrib begins is a limited arena,then parks there.
Desperation would be going extrabiblical. That realm belongs to postrb
P
Discuss sensibly?
Jesus marries a building?
Jetison all opposing verses to make a building Jesus' wife?
About rev 18 or so,it says the voice of the bride is no longer heard in Babylon.
If the bride is a building,a talking one,what does that do to trying to make sense out of scripture?
that is the "sensible" I am addressing
Jesus marries a building?
Jetison all opposing verses to make a building Jesus' wife?
About rev 18 or so,it says the voice of the bride is no longer heard in Babylon.
If the bride is a building,a talking one,what does that do to trying to make sense out of scripture?
that is the "sensible" I am addressing
Buddy,
We distort nothing. Your entire "house-of-cards" pre-trib theory is based on multiple false assumptions.
You have no understanding of the spiritual nature of Revelation.
You wrongly identify all seals, trumps and bowls as being part of the Tribulation.
You wrongly see the Tribulation and God's Wrath as the same thing rather than that they are separate, sequential things. Satan's wrath AKA, Great Tribulation is before God's Wrath. God's wrath is in response to it.
You see God as being behind the GT when it is Satan behind it.
You make distinctions between a GT era Saint and a pre-trib Saint. No distinction is ever taught.
What are they called? Souls??? Guess what, in heaven souls can talk. Ever see those near death shows where people go to heaven, interact with dead family members then come back to life to tell about it?
I Survived...Beyond and Back - TV.com
Were those people souls or living raptured bodies? According to you, they don't get their bodies until the Rapture.
Of course. What proof? You showed me souls in heaven, not living raptured people. Please read Mat 24:1-31 and point out to me the verse where the Rapture takes place? Does Jesus forget to mention the biggest sign of His Second coming (His earlier Rapture return)?
Exactly!! And what period of time did they die? They died at the 4th seal which is the Great Tribulation. If they are waiting to be resurrected then they could not have been raptured, could they?
Again, exactly!! They want to be avenged. Who killed them, God or Satan?
You believe in 4 main things, none of which are taught.
1. A separate return of Christ before His Second Coming, before the Great Trib
2. Two separate returns of Christ taught in same passage in a clear and concise way
3. Any LIVING person is transformed then transported to the current heaven without dying (except Elijah and Enoch)
4. A massive revival on earth after the pre-Trib Rapture so there can be saints to be killed during Tribulation
I cannot disprove the non-existence of something such as #1 and #2 only to tell you that no passage exists which teaches #1 and #2. But I can disprove #3 and #4.
#3. Heb 9: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
Do you see this? Men are to die once, then judgment. Where is the qualification that says, "except for those who are raptured?" Did God leave that out? Did He forgot? Did He lie and deceive you?
#4. 2 Thes 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.
Do you see that? that Day (Day Christ returns) will not happen until the falling away and until the Man of Sin appears. I know you struggle with reading comprehension but try to understand that this passage is telling you literally that Christ WILL NOT Return until AFTER the Man of Sin appears.
Bottom line is, the clear teaching of the Bible is consistent throughout. Satan is cast to earth for the last time. Muslims set up the Abomination of Desolation then immediately the Great Tribulation begins which are Muslims out to kill all Jews and Christians wherever they can find them. They also kill fellow Muslims who will not swear allegiance to the Beast of the Sea (North) in huge numbers. They kill untold multitudes of God's People as we see in Rev 7 and at the 5th seal. God cuts those Tribulation days short because otherwise no flesh will be left alive. God then pours out His wrath upon the Beast (Muslims who have been worshiping Islam (Mystery Babylon) then in close proximity Christ returns.
We distort nothing. Your entire "house-of-cards" pre-trib theory is based on multiple false assumptions.
You have no understanding of the spiritual nature of Revelation.
You wrongly identify all seals, trumps and bowls as being part of the Tribulation.
You wrongly see the Tribulation and God's Wrath as the same thing rather than that they are separate, sequential things. Satan's wrath AKA, Great Tribulation is before God's Wrath. God's wrath is in response to it.
You see God as being behind the GT when it is Satan behind it.
You make distinctions between a GT era Saint and a pre-trib Saint. No distinction is ever taught.
What are they called? Souls??? Guess what, in heaven souls can talk. Ever see those near death shows where people go to heaven, interact with dead family members then come back to life to tell about it?
I Survived...Beyond and Back - TV.com
Were those people souls or living raptured bodies? According to you, they don't get their bodies until the Rapture.
Of course. What proof? You showed me souls in heaven, not living raptured people. Please read Mat 24:1-31 and point out to me the verse where the Rapture takes place? Does Jesus forget to mention the biggest sign of His Second coming (His earlier Rapture return)?
Exactly!! And what period of time did they die? They died at the 4th seal which is the Great Tribulation. If they are waiting to be resurrected then they could not have been raptured, could they?
Again, exactly!! They want to be avenged. Who killed them, God or Satan?
You believe in 4 main things, none of which are taught.
1. A separate return of Christ before His Second Coming, before the Great Trib
2. Two separate returns of Christ taught in same passage in a clear and concise way
3. Any LIVING person is transformed then transported to the current heaven without dying (except Elijah and Enoch)
4. A massive revival on earth after the pre-Trib Rapture so there can be saints to be killed during Tribulation
I cannot disprove the non-existence of something such as #1 and #2 only to tell you that no passage exists which teaches #1 and #2. But I can disprove #3 and #4.
#3. Heb 9: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
Do you see this? Men are to die once, then judgment. Where is the qualification that says, "except for those who are raptured?" Did God leave that out? Did He forgot? Did He lie and deceive you?
#4. 2 Thes 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.
Do you see that? that Day (Day Christ returns) will not happen until the falling away and until the Man of Sin appears. I know you struggle with reading comprehension but try to understand that this passage is telling you literally that Christ WILL NOT Return until AFTER the Man of Sin appears.
Bottom line is, the clear teaching of the Bible is consistent throughout. Satan is cast to earth for the last time. Muslims set up the Abomination of Desolation then immediately the Great Tribulation begins which are Muslims out to kill all Jews and Christians wherever they can find them. They also kill fellow Muslims who will not swear allegiance to the Beast of the Sea (North) in huge numbers. They kill untold multitudes of God's People as we see in Rev 7 and at the 5th seal. God cuts those Tribulation days short because otherwise no flesh will be left alive. God then pours out His wrath upon the Beast (Muslims who have been worshiping Islam (Mystery Babylon) then in close proximity Christ returns.
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I don't need Bible Gateway. I have 3 Interlinear Hebrew/Greek Bible manuscript sets; Ginsberg's work on the Hebrew Massorah, many Bible versions including a copy of the 1st edition 1611 KJV in Old English, various Bible Dictionaries including Smith's, various Bible concordances like Strong's and Brown-Driver and Briggs, The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge concordance, Englishman's Concordance, and then all the Bible references that come with my BibleSoft program.
6th seal: For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7th Trumpet: The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowls: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed
As you can see from the above, God's wrath includes the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which take place during Daniel's seven years.
Regarding the above, I never said that they were in their resurrected bodies, I said they were alive, conscious and aware. Pay attention!
I honestly don't even know why you are bringing up the above, as Mt.24 has to do with the signs preceding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the catching away of the church.
Once again, I did not say that those under the altar were raptured, but are the souls of those who will have died and are awaiting the resurrection. It is you who assumed that I said that they were raptured. I was merely pointing out that they were conscious and aware after death. So let me clarify it for you, those under the altar in heaven, are the souls of the those who will have been killed and are awaiting the resurrection.
It is the inhabitants of the earth who kill them, as shown in Rev.6:10. To be clear, the great tribulation saints are going to be killed by the inhabitants of the earth during the beasts reign, but it is Jesus who is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, which is followed by the bowl judgments. Everything that happens within the seals, trumpets and bowls are a direct consequence of God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the fulfillment of the long prophesied "the day of the Lord." Everything, including the events done by the beast and the false prophet, are all apart of God's wrath. In Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:7 it states that the beast will be given authority over the saints. Who do think is giving the beast that authority? It is God who is allowing him to have authority for that last 3 1/2 years to fulfill his purpose.
Now pay attention, because the following is the proof:
"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath"
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Since I have already demonstrated that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God and since we are not appointed to suffer wrath, for Jesus rescues us from it, then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. Regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, it is Jesus who is initiating them and therefore, everything that takes place during that time period is apart of God's wrath.
Regarding the resurrection and catching away (rapture), Jesus does not return to the earth, but the dead are resurrected and the living are changed into their glorified bodies and meet those who will have just been resurrected in the clouds where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the whole group back to the Father's house, that where Jesus is we may be also.
That is correct! When the Lord appears, the dead in Christ will rise bodily and those who are still alive will be immediately transformed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
7th Trumpet: The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowls: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed
As you can see from the above, God's wrath includes the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which take place during Daniel's seven years.
Regarding the above, I never said that they were in their resurrected bodies, I said they were alive, conscious and aware. Pay attention!
I honestly don't even know why you are bringing up the above, as Mt.24 has to do with the signs preceding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and has nothing to do with the catching away of the church.
Once again, I did not say that those under the altar were raptured, but are the souls of those who will have died and are awaiting the resurrection. It is you who assumed that I said that they were raptured. I was merely pointing out that they were conscious and aware after death. So let me clarify it for you, those under the altar in heaven, are the souls of the those who will have been killed and are awaiting the resurrection.
It is the inhabitants of the earth who kill them, as shown in Rev.6:10. To be clear, the great tribulation saints are going to be killed by the inhabitants of the earth during the beasts reign, but it is Jesus who is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, which is followed by the bowl judgments. Everything that happens within the seals, trumpets and bowls are a direct consequence of God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the fulfillment of the long prophesied "the day of the Lord." Everything, including the events done by the beast and the false prophet, are all apart of God's wrath. In Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:7 it states that the beast will be given authority over the saints. Who do think is giving the beast that authority? It is God who is allowing him to have authority for that last 3 1/2 years to fulfill his purpose.
Now pay attention, because the following is the proof:
"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath"
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Since I have already demonstrated that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God and since we are not appointed to suffer wrath, for Jesus rescues us from it, then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. Regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, it is Jesus who is initiating them and therefore, everything that takes place during that time period is apart of God's wrath.
Regarding the resurrection and catching away (rapture), Jesus does not return to the earth, but the dead are resurrected and the living are changed into their glorified bodies and meet those who will have just been resurrected in the clouds where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the whole group back to the Father's house, that where Jesus is we may be also.
That is correct! When the Lord appears, the dead in Christ will rise bodily and those who are still alive will be immediately transformed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
Easy...
Dan 8:12-14
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV
That's about the "little horn" of that Dan.8 chapter;
v.12 - that's about the "little horn" committing the "abomination of desolation", which is further shown in Dan.11.
v.13 - how long will the period of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation (AOD), and the host and sanctuary (temple) trodden under foot?
v.14 - 2300 days, then the sanctuary will be cleansed, which marks the end of the whole vision meaning end of the tribulation.
Verse 14 means the count begins at the 'end' of the whole vision with the cleansing of the sanctuary at Jesus' coming. That means count backward... from that point into the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27, which represents a seven year period.
[-----------------------------------------"one week" of Dan.9:27 (7 years) --------------------------------]
[------------1260 days--------------------------------][AOD][------------------1260 days------------------]
[---------220 days-------][----------1040 days------]-------[------------------1260 days -----------------]
[________n/a_________][-----------------------------------2300 days -----------------------------------]
The 2300 days events:
[___________n/a___________][--------------------------------2300 days---------------------------------]
[-----------220 days------------][----------1040 days------][-------AOD------][--------1260 days--------]
[---temple built/prep----------][----sacrifices/oblation---][-sacrifice ended-][----great tribulation-----]
Dan 8:12-14
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV
That's about the "little horn" of that Dan.8 chapter;
v.12 - that's about the "little horn" committing the "abomination of desolation", which is further shown in Dan.11.
v.13 - how long will the period of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation (AOD), and the host and sanctuary (temple) trodden under foot?
v.14 - 2300 days, then the sanctuary will be cleansed, which marks the end of the whole vision meaning end of the tribulation.
Verse 14 means the count begins at the 'end' of the whole vision with the cleansing of the sanctuary at Jesus' coming. That means count backward... from that point into the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27, which represents a seven year period.
[-----------------------------------------"one week" of Dan.9:27 (7 years) --------------------------------]
[------------1260 days--------------------------------][AOD][------------------1260 days------------------]
[---------220 days-------][----------1040 days------]-------[------------------1260 days -----------------]
[________n/a_________][-----------------------------------2300 days -----------------------------------]
The 2300 days events:
[___________n/a___________][--------------------------------2300 days---------------------------------]
[-----------220 days------------][----------1040 days------][-------AOD------][--------1260 days--------]
[---temple built/prep----------][----sacrifices/oblation---][-sacrifice ended-][----great tribulation-----]
Again, I will repeat.
The Great Tribulation = Wrath of Satan
The Great Tribulation takes place at the 4th Seal
The 5th Seal shows the results of Satan's Great Tribulation
The Wrath comes after which agrees with 6th seal, 7th seal as you show in the above quote
Since you point out that the "Wrath is first mentioned at the 6th seal and that all 7 bowls are also Wrath why can't the Great Tribulation end at 5th seal and the Wrath start at 6th seal and encompass Seal 6,7 and Trumps and Bowl?
You implied it. So you agree they are still dead and not raptured??? I could have sworn that you said the Rapture takes place before the 1st seal. If the Tribulation and God's wrath are the same then are you saying that God killed these souls in heaven? If so, who then are the souls asking for revenge against? God??
Did you really just say this? When is the last time you read Mat 24?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Who is the"YOU" being discussed above? Has the Raptured happened yet?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21[/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You claim that the Rapture (Catching away of the church) happens just before the Great Trib and Since the Great Trib and signs leading up to it are including, how can the Rapture not be considered a sign of the Great Trib at the least if it isn't an actual sign of the Second Coming? I would think a world-wide event such as the Return of Christ whereby He snatching millions and millions off the planet would deserve at least a passing comment in this passage.
The Great Tribulation = Wrath of Satan
The Great Tribulation takes place at the 4th Seal
The 5th Seal shows the results of Satan's Great Tribulation
The Wrath comes after which agrees with 6th seal, 7th seal as you show in the above quote
Since you point out that the "Wrath is first mentioned at the 6th seal and that all 7 bowls are also Wrath why can't the Great Tribulation end at 5th seal and the Wrath start at 6th seal and encompass Seal 6,7 and Trumps and Bowl?
You implied it. So you agree they are still dead and not raptured??? I could have sworn that you said the Rapture takes place before the 1st seal. If the Tribulation and God's wrath are the same then are you saying that God killed these souls in heaven? If so, who then are the souls asking for revenge against? God??
Did you really just say this? When is the last time you read Mat 24?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Who is the"YOU" being discussed above? Has the Raptured happened yet?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21[/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You claim that the Rapture (Catching away of the church) happens just before the Great Trib and Since the Great Trib and signs leading up to it are including, how can the Rapture not be considered a sign of the Great Trib at the least if it isn't an actual sign of the Second Coming? I would think a world-wide event such as the Return of Christ whereby He snatching millions and millions off the planet would deserve at least a passing comment in this passage.
Hello PlainWord,
What you are not understanding is that, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are God's wrath, including whatever Satan, the beast and the false prophet are doing and that because, it is the Lamb, Jesus, who is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. For example, at the 5th trumpet, which is God's wrath, that star/angel opens the Abyss and lets out all of the demonic beings who torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of scorpions. At the sixth trumpet, the same angel that sounds the trumpet is told to go and release the four evil angels bound at the great Euphrates river and they along with their 200 million troops kills a third of mankind. So you see, even though these events are being done by Satan's group, it is apart of God's wrath, for he is the One who is initiating the events.
Again, it is the Lamb who is opening the seals and is therefore the initiator of every judgment that follows. Also, regarding the wrath mentioned at the sixth seal, the words "their wrath has come" encompasses the previous seals as well. You're looking at the announcement as though the wrath is only what takes place after the announcement, but in fact it includes the previous seals as well. I could never understand why people always try to slice and dice parts of the seals from the rest of the judgments of wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God. Whatever tribulation is going on within them is by God's design and not Satan's.
The rapture does take place before the first seal is opened. Those souls under the altar will have been killed by the inhabitants of the earth after the resurrection and catching away has taken place and therefore, this group will not be resurrected until Rev.20:4 which is after Christ returns to end the age. As I said, they are in the time of God's wrath, but it is mankind who will have killed them and those who kill them will still be held accountable. The identity of who the souls are asking for revenge against them is stated right in the verse:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Do you understand that there is a difference between the resurrection and catching away, opposed to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom? They are two separate events! Mt.24 is speaking about the signs leading up to the Lord's physical, visual, return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, where the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place prior to that time period. If you will notice, all of the information in Mt.24 is focused on the events that take place prior to the abomination being set up as mentioned in Mt.24:15, as well as the events that follow the setting up of the abomination and leading up to his return to end the age.
What you are not understanding is that, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are God's wrath, including whatever Satan, the beast and the false prophet are doing and that because, it is the Lamb, Jesus, who is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. For example, at the 5th trumpet, which is God's wrath, that star/angel opens the Abyss and lets out all of the demonic beings who torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of scorpions. At the sixth trumpet, the same angel that sounds the trumpet is told to go and release the four evil angels bound at the great Euphrates river and they along with their 200 million troops kills a third of mankind. So you see, even though these events are being done by Satan's group, it is apart of God's wrath, for he is the One who is initiating the events.
Again, it is the Lamb who is opening the seals and is therefore the initiator of every judgment that follows. Also, regarding the wrath mentioned at the sixth seal, the words "their wrath has come" encompasses the previous seals as well. You're looking at the announcement as though the wrath is only what takes place after the announcement, but in fact it includes the previous seals as well. I could never understand why people always try to slice and dice parts of the seals from the rest of the judgments of wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God. Whatever tribulation is going on within them is by God's design and not Satan's.
The rapture does take place before the first seal is opened. Those souls under the altar will have been killed by the inhabitants of the earth after the resurrection and catching away has taken place and therefore, this group will not be resurrected until Rev.20:4 which is after Christ returns to end the age. As I said, they are in the time of God's wrath, but it is mankind who will have killed them and those who kill them will still be held accountable. The identity of who the souls are asking for revenge against them is stated right in the verse:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Do you understand that there is a difference between the resurrection and catching away, opposed to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom? They are two separate events! Mt.24 is speaking about the signs leading up to the Lord's physical, visual, return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, where the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place prior to that time period. If you will notice, all of the information in Mt.24 is focused on the events that take place prior to the abomination being set up as mentioned in Mt.24:15, as well as the events that follow the setting up of the abomination and leading up to his return to end the age.
We agree, God allows everything. But do not equate Satan's activities with God being responsible for those activities or condoning them. God does not condone sin but does He allow it? Obviously as He gives us freedom of choice.
The "Tribulation Saints" as you call them is an untaught concept. My view is that all Saints enter the Great Tribulation.
The "Inhabitants of the Earth" are Muslims.
The "Tribulation Saints" as you call them is an untaught concept. My view is that all Saints enter the Great Tribulation.
The "Inhabitants of the Earth" are Muslims.
The insertion of Muslims is EVERYTHING. They are the followers of Mystery Babylon (ISLAM). They are the attackers of Israel in the last days as told by Ezekiel 38-39.
Again, we have no teaching of a third temple and one is not needed to fulfill prophesy. Have you been following the latest conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia? They are two of the key players (King of North and South) as discussed in Dan 11.
Again, we have no teaching of a third temple and one is not needed to fulfill prophesy. Have you been following the latest conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia? They are two of the key players (King of North and South) as discussed in Dan 11.
No my dear friend. Yes, Jesus opens the seals. Think of what this means figuratively. If I write a book and hand it to you and you open it, don't you reveal what my book says? But this doesn't mean you wrote it. Think now of a scroll. Scrolls are sealed back in the day with an official seal whereby if someone other than the intended recipient were to open it, that person would be subject to death.
The 7 seals merely contain the contents of the scroll. Christ reveals what is written inside and on the back of the scroll. Jesus reveals - hence the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Christ isn't authoring the events, He is revealing them to us and is the only one found worthy to reveal these end times events.
Notice the language. The discussion is about who is worthy to open the scroll, not who is worthy to write the scroll.
“Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” [SUP]3 [/SUP]And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. [SUP]4 [/SUP]So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
Christ merely opens the scroll so that we can see what is written:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,And to open its seals..
See Christ isn't writing the scroll. The events are known to God. He knows everything. He knows how things will play out. The seals seal the scroll. They are not all part of the wrath. The Trumpets are written on the inside of the scroll and the bowls are written on the back (or vice versa). The words are all there. The seals again, merely seal the scroll so that you can't read what's inside until they are all opened.
The 7 seals merely contain the contents of the scroll. Christ reveals what is written inside and on the back of the scroll. Jesus reveals - hence the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Christ isn't authoring the events, He is revealing them to us and is the only one found worthy to reveal these end times events.
Notice the language. The discussion is about who is worthy to open the scroll, not who is worthy to write the scroll.
“Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” [SUP]3 [/SUP]And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. [SUP]4 [/SUP]So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
Christ merely opens the scroll so that we can see what is written:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,And to open its seals..
See Christ isn't writing the scroll. The events are known to God. He knows everything. He knows how things will play out. The seals seal the scroll. They are not all part of the wrath. The Trumpets are written on the inside of the scroll and the bowls are written on the back (or vice versa). The words are all there. The seals again, merely seal the scroll so that you can't read what's inside until they are all opened.
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isaiah 45
6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. 8"Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the LORD, have created it
6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. 8"Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the LORD, have created it
NKJV says, "No one"
KJV says, "No man"
I usually cite NKJV. In any event, not sure I see this minor difference is important to the point I was making as it becomes clear later that only the Lamb (Christ Jesus) was worthy to open the seals.
The more important point is that nothing, and I mean nothing, tells us that all 7 seals, trumps and bowls are part of the Great Trib and nothing tells us that the seals are related to God's Wrath except for the 6th seal which is the only one that talks about Christ's wrath.
KJV says, "No man"
I usually cite NKJV. In any event, not sure I see this minor difference is important to the point I was making as it becomes clear later that only the Lamb (Christ Jesus) was worthy to open the seals.
The more important point is that nothing, and I mean nothing, tells us that all 7 seals, trumps and bowls are part of the Great Trib and nothing tells us that the seals are related to God's Wrath except for the 6th seal which is the only one that talks about Christ's wrath.