the rapture

[DP]

No, it simply points out recognition of God's wrath being poured out.

Which happens to be the day of the Lord when Jesus comes, duh...!

The Sixth Seal Judgment is not when Christ returns. He does not return until after the Seventh Vial Judgment is poured out upon the earth.

When the wicked see Him, which is why they seek to hide, that definitely is His coming. And that's not the only final day event shown within that 6th Seal of Rev.6. So deny that all you want just to keep a false tradition of men, it won't make a bit of difference.

The Seventh Seal is the time when the Seven Trumpet Judgments are sounded, and it is clear that the Lord has not returned at that point.

Got that sequential numbering ding, ding going on in the back of your mind as you read Revelation??? That's why you make errors with the timing of those given events, because you think it's about the math, instead of RECOGNIZING the type of events being given, and that in relation to the OT prophets.

Jesus' return is revealed in these Rev.11:14 forward verses, not by any statement that says something like, "This is the CNN news team, coming to you live from Jerusalem. Yes, there He is, there is JESUS, coming in the clouds with great Glory, and what? it looks like He's got something in His mouth! We're zooming the camera in for a closer look! It's a SWORD!"

We're given that above kind of detail in the Rev.19 chapter, not in that Rev.11 chapter, nor Rev.6, but by recognizing the TYPE of events that are occurring that go along with His time of return, like the time of His wrath, that is also how we know the timing of the day of His coming.

Revelation is not laid out in sequential order like most think. The events given jump to past, present, and future very quickly. And those who haven't done their own Bible study in all of God's Word won't RECOGNIZE what timing all the events are.

 

[DP]

well dp thank you for opening my eyes to my foolishness as a pre trib believer.
I am looking at a mid trib or post trib or maybe even a no trib belief.
I think all I have to do is change some things in the gospels in fact in the new testament to accommodate those beliefs.

How do you guys make this stuff up? Do you have a political writer on retainer or something?

Christ's elect are shown going through the tribulation, so I didn't know you were better than them, excuse me. You must have some SECRET PROMISE the rest of Christ's Church doesn't know anything about. Oh... yeah, that's right, you have the promise of MEN that teach you will be taken in the secret rapture!!! a rapture that is nowhere written of in God's Word!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Already you've made an error, for that unprecedented time as such that the world has never seen is actually the great tribulation timing PRIOR to God's wrath upon the wicked:

Everyone on planet earth will be exposed to God's wrath during that time, which is why we have so much warning in scripture to be watching and ready for the Lord's return so that that day does not close on us like a trap. So I have made no error regarding the above.

The wicked are in power for that tribulation time, which is NOT the time of God's Wrath. You folks don't even recognize that confusing the tribulation timing with God's Wrath is like saying God's Wrath is upon His elect servants there

The time of God's wrath is comprised of the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, which will affect all the inhabitants of the earth, whether righteous or wicked.

There will be three groups of the righteous on the earth during that time, the woman of chapter 12 who is Israel and who will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years (Mt.24:15-21, Rev.12:5,14).

Then there will be the Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 whom the woman/Israel will give birth to and who will caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven (Rev.12:5-6).

And lastly, there will be the great tribulation saints (GTS) who are believers from every nation, tribe, people and language who are shown to be affected by God's wrath during that time by the mentioning of the plagues that they will have been exposed to as can be seen in Rev.7:16. They will also be exposed to the persecution of the beast and the false prophet with many of the GTS being beheaded, which are those who are in view in Rev.20:4.

Everyone else will be those people who are unbelievers, who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark and will do so to their own destruction. So the bottom line is:

Seek the Lord now while he may be found, waiting and watching for his appearing to gather the church and avoid that time of God's wrath, for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth (Luke 21:34-36, Rev.3:10)

 

[DP]

Everyone on planet earth will be exposed to God's wrath during that time, which is why we have so much warning in scripture to be watching and ready for the Lord's return so that that day does not close on us like a trap. So I have made no error regarding the above.

No, actually not all believers on Christ will be exposed to that tribulation hardship of the Antichrist's wrath, because by their having listened to men instead of God's Word, they will bow to that coming false messiah when those same men tell them to, their wrongly thinking he is our Lord Jesus. Those deceived will actually have things good during the tribulation! Those will join in with the other deceived that Apostle Paul mentioned will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time.

It's those like myself which heed God's Word as written and not the word of men, and refusal to bow to that coming false messiah as Christ, that will be persecuted by the deceived fallen away who will become servants of the false messiah. The secret rapture theory is especially created by men to cause brethren to be deceived by that coming false messiah in our near future.

Since those like yourself instead listen to the word of men, you have failed to recognize that the time of great tribulation Jesus taught will be a time of world peace, not all-out war and strife. If you've read the books written by spokespersons of their secret rapture theory like Hal Lindsay, then your mind is going have an even more difficult time grasping that time of "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying during the tribulation (1 Thess.5).

 

[DP]

Everyone on planet earth will be exposed to God's wrath during that time, which is why we have so much warning in scripture to be watching and ready for the Lord's return so that that day does not close on us like a trap. So I have made no error regarding the above.

The time of God's wrath is comprised of the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, which will affect all the inhabitants of the earth, whether righteous or wicked.

But the time of God's Wrath will occur on the day of Christ's coming. His previous judgments prior to the final Vial is NOT the particular day of wrath that Scripture is talking about.

These... events below all occur on the day of Christ Jesus' coming. There is a specific cup of God's wrath to be poured out upon the wicked on that day...

Rev 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
KJV

Rev 16:19-21
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV



Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
KJV

That timing there is "the day of the Lord", the day that is to come "as a thief in the night." THOSE EVENTS END THE TRIBULATION.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Christ's elect are shown going through the tribulation, so I didn't know you were better than them, excuse me.

Hello DP,

The problem is that you are not recognizing who is in view during the tribulation. Again, I will ask you to show us one place in scripture where the word "Church" is mentioned from Rev.4 onward. From Rev.1 thru 3 we see the word "Church" only and you will not find the word "Saints" within those chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward, you will only see the word "Saints" and the word "Church" is never used. The reason for this is that God is making a distinction here between the two groups, the Church and the great tribulation saints. The absence of the word "Church" after the end of Rev.3 is a clue that it has been removed from the earth, as the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. Therefore, every time you see the word "Saints" beginning at Rev.5:8, it is in reference to the great tribulation saints and not the church.

Oh... yeah, that's right, you have the promise of MEN that teach you will be taken in the secret rapture!!! a rapture that is nowhere written of in God's Word!

Here is where the resurrection and catching away is written in scripture that you say doesn't exist:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thes.4:16)

In the verse above, the underlined part is where the living are changed in a moment and caught up with those who will have previously resurrected, so, I don't understand why you would claim that this event is nowhere written in scripture, when you can read them above? If anything, you would have to admit that this event is scriptural and that, timing aside, because it is in God's word, then it must take place at some time. Also, people say "secret rapture" or something similar, in order to make it sound ridiculous and so to discredit those who are proclaiming it. The fact is that it is plainly stated as a promise from the Lord for those who are being faithful and are looking forward to the promise of his appearing and our being removed from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out.

 

[Ahwatukee]

But the time of God's Wrath will occur on the day of Christ's coming. His previous judgments prior to the final Vial is NOT the particular day of wrath that Scripture is talking about.

Not according to what scripture says!

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.[/quote]

First of all, notice in the verse above that plagues = wrath. Second, that the bowl judgments are said to be to be the last plagues, which complete God's wrath. If you have plagues of wrath that are labeled as being "Last" then there would have to be plagues of wrath that came before them, which would be the seals and the trumpet judgments. Again, the fact that Jesus, the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals which lead into the trumpets and bowl judgments, would demonstrate that the Lord is the One who initiating these plagues of wrath. The fact that a fourth of the earth is killed as a result of the fourth seal would demonstrate that it is apart of God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One who will be causing it.

These... events below all occur on the day of Christ Jesus' coming. There is a specific cup of God's wrath to be poured out upon the wicked on that day...

Rev 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. KJV

Your are correct in that the above event takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age as depicted in Rev.19:11-21. But, that event is not the only event related to God's wrath, as we have the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that are all referred to as God's wrath. At Christ's return to end the age, the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20) and the those kings, their generals, their armies and all the people that the angels will have gathered (one taken) will all be killed with that double-edged sword, which is figurative of the word of God. This group will be all of those who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark and those who will have rejected Christ. This takes place after the seven bowl of wrath has been poured out.

Rev 16:19-21
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. KJV

The above takes place at the pouring out of the seventh bowl of wrath, which takes place sometime prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.

That timing there is "the day of the Lord", the day that is to come "as a thief in the night." THOSE EVENTS END THE TRIBULATION

The "Day of the Lord" is not a day, but a time period which covers the entire last seven years of Daniels prophecy. The day of the Lord begins when that first seal is opened, which begins those three sets of seven events of wrath, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That being said, the day of the Lord is not restricted to only the time of the Lord's actual return to the earth after his wrath has been poured out, but includes all of his wrath as well.

 

[DP]

Hello DP,

The problem is that you are not recognizing who is in view during the tribulation. Again, I will ask you to show us one place in scripture where the word "Church" is mentioned from Rev.4 onward. From Rev.1 thru 3 we see the word "Church" only and you will not find the word "Saints" within those chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward, you will only see the word "Saints" and the word "Church" is never used. The reason for this is that God is making a distinction here between the two groups, the Church and the great tribulation saints. The absence of the word "Church" after the end of Rev.3 is a clue that it has been removed from the earth, as the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. Therefore, every time you see the word "Saints" beginning at Rev.5:8, it is in reference to the great tribulation saints and not the church.

Easy, the Church is mentioned in Rev.16:15 by Christ's Own words.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Oh, but you want to limit Christ's Word there only to the specific word 'Church', sorry, I forgot!

So no, Jesus is NOT speaking to His Church there at that Rev.16:15 verse... NOT! He most DEFINITELY IS SPEAKING THAT TO HIS CHURCH.

And that is on the 6th VIAL just prior to the coming of the 7th VIAL, which is the day of His coming. Thus beyond ALL... doubt, Jesus there is STILL WARNING HIS CHURCH ON EARTH to watch and don't be deceived ("keepeth his garments").

 

[DP]

Not according to what scripture says!

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Indeed, when the 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR (did you catch that?) God's wrath will be completed.

But as I have already shown God's cup of wrath upon the wicked poured out on the 7th Vial, the day of Christ's coming, that is a specific wrath that end this present world, and thus the tribulation time also. Or can you not read there in Rev.16 how the devil still has power on earth all the way up to that final 7th Vial????

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, actually not all believers on Christ will be exposed to that tribulation hardship of the Antichrist's wrath, because by their having listened to men instead of God's Word, they will bow to that coming false messiah when those same men tell them to, their wrongly thinking he is our Lord Jesus. Those deceived will actually have things good during the tribulation! Those will join in with the other deceived that Apostle Paul mentioned will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time.

Again, what you are not understanding is that, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place during that entire seven years, which will also be during the time of the beasts reign. Therefore, though the people of the world "have things good during the tribulation" they are still going to suffer God's wrath that will be poured out during that same time. Also, the so-called good things that wicked will be enjoying will be for a very short period, for at the end Christ will return and they will all be killed with that double-edged sword.

It's those like myself which heed God's Word as written and not the word of men, and refusal to bow to that coming false messiah as Christ, that will be persecuted by the deceived fallen away who will become servants of the false messiah. The secret rapture theory is especially created by men to cause brethren to be deceived by that coming false messiah in our near future.

Again, regarding your "secret rapture theory" I would refer you to 1 Cor.15:51-53 and 1 Thes.4:13-18. Timing aside, how can you call it a secret rapture theory when it states that those who are still alive at his appearing will be changed and caught up? How is that a secret? Again, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living and them being caught up must take place and that because it is written. I don't understand why you call it a secret catching away. If you want to remain on earth during the wrath of God that is your business. As for me and all who are looking forward to his promise, we expect the Lord to remove us from the earth prior to his wrath being poured out on this earth.

Since those like yourself instead listen to the word of men, you have failed to recognize that the time of great tribulation Jesus taught will be a time of world peace, not all-out war and strife.

First of all, let me make something perfectly clear: I have not learned of the event of the resurrection and catching away or any other Biblical subjects from men, but straight from the word of God, which you seem to continue to ignore. My understanding of scripture is from over 40 years of my own personal studies in the word of God. To claim that I have listened to the teaching of men is an error of assumption on your part and which is just a common practice to discredit and to elevate ones self.

The Thessalonians knew the correct order of events. There were those who were teaching that the resurrection had already take place and so they wrote Paul regarding this. They knew that the order of events according to what Paul had taught them was that the resurrection accompanied by the catching away would take place with the wrath of God to follow. They were concerned because if the resurrection and catching away had already taken place, then it would mean that they had missed the catching away and that the only thing to follow would be the wrath of God. But of course Paul comforts them, letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place.

It is sad that today we have people who believe that God is going to put them through his wrath, not believing in his promise to appear and remove them in order to keep them from it, and not understanding that Jesus satisfied God's wrath as a result of our sins and that we are not appointed to suffer wrath.

 

[popeye]

Easy, the Church is mentioned in Rev.16:15 by Christ's Own words.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Oh, but you want to limit Christ's Word there only to the specific word 'Church', sorry, I forgot!

So no, Jesus is NOT speaking to His Church there at that Rev.16:15 verse... NOT! He most DEFINITELY IS SPEAKING THAT TO HIS CHURCH.

And that is on the 6th VIAL just prior to the coming of the 7th VIAL, which is the day of His coming. Thus beyond ALL... doubt, Jesus there is STILL WARNING HIS CHURCH ON EARTH to watch and don't be deceived ("keepeth his garments").

So you ate saying that rev 17 is depicting Jesus coming as a thief at the battle of Armageddon?

That would be beyond bizarre.

No such thing my friend.

 

[popeye]

Easy, the Church is mentioned in Rev.16:15 by Christ's Own words.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Oh, but you want to limit Christ's Word there only to the specific word 'Church', sorry, I forgot!

So no, Jesus is NOT speaking to His Church there at that Rev.16:15 verse... NOT! He most DEFINITELY IS SPEAKING THAT TO HIS CHURCH.

And that is on the 6th VIAL just prior to the coming of the 7th VIAL, which is the day of His coming. Thus beyond ALL... doubt, Jesus there is STILL WARNING HIS CHURCH ON EARTH to watch and don't be deceived ("keepeth his garments").

So you are saying that rev 16 is depicting Jesus coming as a thief at the battle of Armageddon?

That would be beyond bizarre.

No such thing my friend.

 

[pottersclay]

Dp you are so far off its not even funny, I'm not saying that because I am a pre tribes but friend your story of revelation in general makes no sense. Please listen to what's being said here and why it's being said.
I don't care if you are a post trib mid trib whatever but I would like it if you had some understanding about it.

 

[tanach]

So I want to learn a little bit more about the Rapture from what I read I'm starting to see a lot of signs in the world I like what I message was church the other day it was are you living a Christian life outside of church are you going with the Rapture are you staying even though you go to church doesn't mean you're always living the word.plese help by answering whats the mark of the beast really mean.and our we not gonna be able to eat and stuff

Just thought I would weigh in with a few observations. Firstly 'living outside the Church' Your salvation does not hinge on whether you attend Church or not. Living the word covers a huge area. I have yet to meet a perfect Christian. If you have Jesus as your saviour you should not be worried about the Beast and all the rest. People have seen signs of the second coming for the past 2000 years so dont get carried away with sensational statements from pulpits and books.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

The teaching is clearly the physical destruction of unbelievers in the Tribulation and when Christ returns. You charge me with ignoring but I have not ignored anything.

Perhaps you can wow yourself into actually addressing that passage itself.


God bless.

I see.
So you maintain that lot was left behind,but the wicked were taken.

Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding that the passage deals with those taken in judgment, other than what is obvious...that you merge and blend teachings to the point where each teaching loses it's meaning.

So let's look at the specific teaching:


Luke 17:26-37

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


As in v.30, in view is the Return of Christ, which is to take place at the end of the Tribulation. The days of Noah were, like the Tribulation, a day of judgment upon the wicked. When the Lord Returns the first things He does is destroy the wicked which have gathered for war. So we understand the references to Noah and Lot to refer to judgment of the wicked.


[SUP]27 [/SUP]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


These were taken in judgment, just as the Lord concludes this teaching, saying that those taken will be carcasses.


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

[SUP]29 [/SUP]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


Again, His point is not that Lot escaped, but that the wicked are destroyed.



[SUP]30 [/SUP]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


The "even thus" is tied to what He just said, Popeye...people will be destroyed.



[SUP]31 [/SUP]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot's wife.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Those, like Lot's wife, who give more thought to their physical possessions, will perish, be destroyed...just like Lot's wife.

This is not a Rapture teaching, it is a teaching that consists of people in the Tribulation. The Rapture has already taken place.



[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[SUP]37[/SUP]And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Now if you have a Scriptural reference that associates eagles with the Saints, please feel free to present it.

If you care to see a reference that associates fowl with people in a context of judgment, though, you can consider these:

Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.



Revelation 19:17-21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

[SUP]18 [/SUP]That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You maintain that baby Jesus was left behind,but the wicked children were taken

I have no clue how the Lord as a baby is relevant to the teaching. Perhaps you could quote what I have said that causes you to draw this conclusion, or, since nothing I have said confuses the Rapture with the Tribulation passages as you do, perhaps you could simply clue me in to what it is you have in mind.

I won't even mention Noah,

Too late: you already err by equating Noah's deliverance to the Rapture.

The Ark was not Christ and Noah's salvation was only physical. Just like Lot's salvation was only physical.

The difference between those two events and the Rapture is that all who participate in the Rapture are eternally redeemed born again believers who are instantaneously transformed from physical believers to believers physically resurrected.

There is no comparison between those Raptured and Noah, Lot, or those who live through the Tribulation, who are not resurrected at the end of the Tribulation unless they have died during the Tribulation.

or the 5wise virgins(both taken into a structure FIRST),

The Structure is the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the Millennial Kingdom, not Heaven itself:


Matthew 25:1; 10-11

King James Version (KJV)


1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


We can cross reference His statement here with...


Matthew 7:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

due to the ridiculous disguises NEEDED to cancel those no brainers.

The fact that no thought has been given to it is clear, lol.

I realize you can't biblically reconcile that wicked taken first nonsense,

Sure I can. It is very simple if we properly identify the group that is in view.

Just like everything in Matthew 24 is given for those who are in the Tribulation, so is this teaching.

In the Tribulation, there is the possibility of physical death for the believer, there is no such fear for believers in the Rapture, but the opposite, they are resurrected physically.

You are the one imposing into the Context Rapture teaching, which I will remind you was a mystery at the time of the Lord's teaching here, something not yet revealed. It is revealed by Paul here:


1 Corinthians 15:50-53

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Most people understood the foundational teaching of resurrection as taught in the Old Testament and by Christ, but, they were not aware of the glorified Saint and the distinction between them and the wicked who will also be resurrected into bodies suitable for the eternal punishment they receive.

So let's not try to impose something into the Lord's teaching that isn't there, especially when He is so clear that physical destruction is in view.

The days of Noah and Lot were days of physical destruction upon physical people, just as there will be physical destruction upon the wicked of this world who, like the wicked of Noah and Lot's day...rejected the will of God.

but you need to stop,because YOU UNWITTINGLY STRIKE GODS CHARACTER,AS IF HE WOULD DO SUCH A THING

What I need to stop is Pre-Tribulation believers like you who have such a horrible approach to exegesis that they give Post-Tribulation and A-Millennial believers many reasons to deny the clearly taught Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Your attitude is very much like theirs, and seems more the whining of a small child upset that his favorite stuffed toy has been taken away than someone trying to debate Biblical Doctrine.

You quote one thing I have said that in any way detracts from the Holy Character of God, my friend, and we will discuss it.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh,wait,wait wait ...i get it.

No, not really, you don't.

God changed his very nature of saving his elect.

Not at all, but when we enter into the Tribulation we have a scenario different from the conditions of this current Age. The Church is Raptured prior to the Tribulation and those that enter into the Tribulation will be those who have rejected the Holy Spirit and will be given strong delusion, and we will have those who played Churchianity, who will hopefully realize their mistake and be saved. Everyone, though, that goes through the Tribulation will be subject to the dangers that arise when God's wrath is poured out. This will include wars, pestilence, famine, disease, astrological and geological catastrophe. Just because people get saved does not mean they will not be going through the time of trial which is to come upon the whole earth.

I will write ss many publishers as possible.

While I appreciate good sarcasm, this is not good sarcasm, lol.

If you lose the attitude perhaps you might be able to better understand the Rapture, Tribulation, and Return of Christ, that you do not inspire more vitriol as a response to your own, and actually begin engaging in discussions that are profitable, rather than an outlet for your enmity.

You can thank yourself for those who refuse to examine their Post-Tribulation view in earnestness and sincerity. You do nothing but stir up dissension, and do nothing that has any Doctrinal value.

Obviously the woman in rev will no longer be taken into the wilderness and protected.

She will, but that doesn't nullify the remnant that is not:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Couple things to understand here are first...the Woman is Israel. Nothing else...Israel.

Secondly, it is from Israel (The Woman) that Christ comes. He is the One Who will rule all nations.

Third, the Woman is given refuge for 1260 days, which is the second half of the Tribulation.

Fourth, this coincides with the account of Satan and Antichrist coming into power which also coincides with the deaths of the Two Witnesses, whose ministry takes place in the first half of the Tribulation, and is also 3 1/2 years.

Fifth, this period correlates to Christ's warning in Matthew 24, where He instructs those in the Tribulation to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation stand where it ought not. Guess who does that.

Sixth, which will take us to our second quote where we will see that not all of Israel is preserved in the Wilderness, we again consider that what is in view is not the Rapture of the Church (which already took place), but...the desperate conditions of those who are on the earth in physical bodies.



[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Clearly the woe is for those on the earth...which has no application to the Rapture of the Church. We see that the Serpent is wroth and seeks to persecute Israel, and does his best to get those who are given safety for three and a half years, and when his efforts fail...he goes after those who are left, who have not gone into this safety.

So we see an application which places at the mid-point of the Tribulation, which coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 24, and His warning is...

...flee.


Which is completely different from our understanding of the Rapture, which will come unexpectedly, instantaneously, and there will be no condition which warrants a warning to flee. Christ personally collects the Church, and we see nothing of that in the events described in the Tribulation, where physical death is the potential...even for the believers that are saved in that period.

And that, my friend, is the context of the Lord's teaching in regards to those who are taken in judgment during the Tribulation. It is not a Rapture teaching.

God quit doing that when the amils corrected his error.

You error is just as grave as theirs. You are corrupting the context of the Lord's teaching, so don't pat yourself on the back and think your vitriol concerning A-Millennials gains you a pass.


God bless.

 

[Stonemason]

Personally, I will not interpret the bible so as it be consequential in some "reward" or "being part of the in crowd". If the idea of "rapture" sits well with you, if this is the premise that brings you closer to Him, great. The bible speaks to many people in many ways. I have no intention to argue against what you have in that fashion, it's not productive. For me, though, to me, this line of "cleaving to God to be better rewarded" or "being in better position" is actually, particularly, more contrary to the intended message, which I believe is to be "love for all". We draw lines in the sand all the time by our nature, we don't need to cite the bible as more reason.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Lets see,the wicked are taken first,

Again, you wrest the context of pretty much all teachings concerning the wrath of God poured out on the earth.

In the Tribulation there will be those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Some will die, some will be preserved. There must be a believing population in order for the Sheep and Goat Judgment to take place. There must be unbelievers as well, and some of these unbelievers will have deceived themselves that they have been in relationship with Christ, boasting doing works in His Name.

The Tribulation is a time of judgment, just as the days of Noah and Lot were.

the saints are left to the AC,

Some will be at his mercy.

Just keep in mind this is not the Church Paul comforted, but the Church that arises from those who come to saving faith in the Tribulation. They are just as much a part of the One Fold of the Eternal State as we are, the difference being that they are saved during the Tribulation.

and are beheaded,

Can we deny the Word of God and mock this?


Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


While believers will without question die by other means, the point is that they did not love their lives to the death, but remained faithful unto death for the witness of Christ and for the Word of God.

You deny Scripture teaches this?

Jesus returns to planet W/O a single humanoid,..

Who said that?


Revelation 19:11-14

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Many, including myself, believe this Army is the Church. Could be Angels, or a mixture of both, however, I ask again...

...who said or implied the Lord returns alone?

Again, you are confusing teachings.

Uh,but how does he arrest us,since all the wicked are taken b4 we all die.

If you die in the Tribulation, my friend, you will have no-one to blame but yourself.

Not one member of the Church of this Age enters into that period.

Is there some trance?

Nope, just plain old fashioned ignorance of the Word of God, and a complete inability to understand context.

Benny Hinn takes all our money,and we are too depressed to resist?

Hinn has not pulled the wool over the eyes of the discerning among the Sheep.

And I have no idea what he has to do with a discussion of the Rapture or anything I have said.

Struggling for sarcastic statements?

Oh ya,the wicked are all taken,and half the population are saved so left behind.

"One will be taken and one left" does not suggest a 50/50 ration in regards to who dies and who lives in the Tribulation. We can say with some certainty that at least half of the world's population dies within that 7 year period:


Revelation 6:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.




Revelation 9:15


King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

As I said, this the very least we can say in regards to casualties, I think there will be more than half of the earth's population wiped out, and among them will be the believers mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

BTW,I LL take that bridge ya'll got 4sale .

Nothing for sale here, lol, you are welcome to this information for free, and you can verify it by actually reading the Word of God for yourself.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh dear,that other verse has to go also,"few there are that enter heaven"

Obvious God was unaware or forgot,amil "truth",declaring half the earths population as saved and righteous.

Could you quote exactly what it is I said that makes you think I am a-mil? lol

Or where I said "half the earth's population is saved and righteous?"

You know what, never mind, I know you will not, so pat yourself on the back for the unique discernment you have thus far evidenced in your posting.




God bless.

 

[Stonemason]

Also, I'm really not fond of peoples' use of the bible as a "crystal ball" or other "scrying device". Revelation is traditionally cited in this. Christians shouldn't be fortune-telling witches.