The Rapture?
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Since we dabbled in the 144,000 topic, I found the following interesting and I was curious to your take on it.
Revelation 14 (Contemporary English Version)
The Lamb and His 144,000 Followers
1I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion! [a] With him were a hundred forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2Then I heard a sound from heaven that was like a roaring flood or loud thunder or even like the music of harps. 3And a new song was being sung in front of God's throne and in front of the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn that song, except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been rescued from the earth. 4All of these are pure virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he leads. They have been rescued to be presented to God and the Lamb as the most precious people [b] on earth. 5They never tell lies, and they are innocent. The Messages of the Three Angels
6I saw another angel. This one was flying across the sky and had the eternal good news to announce to the people of every race, tribe, language, and nation on earth. 7The angel shouted, "Worship and honor God! The time has come for him to judge everyone. Kneel down before the one who created heaven and earth, the oceans, and every stream."
8A second angel followed and said, "The great city of Babylon has fallen! This is the city that made all nations drunk and immoral. Now God is angry, and Babylon has fallen."
9Finally, a third angel came and shouted:
Here is what will happen if you worship the beast and the idol and have the mark of the beast on your hand or forehead. 10You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.
11If you worship the beast and the idol and accept the mark of its name, you will be tortured day and night. The smoke from your torture will go up forever and ever, and you will never be able to rest.
12God's people must learn to endure. They must also obey his commands and have faith in Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Put this in writing. From now on, the Lord will bless everyone who has faith in him when they die."
The Spirit answered, "Yes, they will rest from their hard work, and they will be rewarded for what they have done."
The Earth Is Harvested
14I looked and saw a bright cloud, and someone who seemed to be the Son of Man [c] was sitting on the cloud. He wore a gold crown on his head and held a sharp sickle [d] in his hand. 15An angel came out of the temple and shouted, "Start cutting with your sickle! Harvest season is here, and all crops on earth are ripe." 16The one on the cloud swung his sickle and harvested the crops. 17Another angel with a sharp sickle then came out of the temple in heaven. 18After this, an angel with power over fire came from the altar and shouted to the angel who had the sickle. He said, "All grapes on earth are ripe! Harvest them with your sharp sickle." 19The angel swung his sickle on earth and cut off its grapes. He threw them into a pit [e] where they were trampled on as a sign of God's anger. 20The pit was outside the city, and when the grapes were mashed, blood flowed out. The blood turned into a river that was about two hundred miles long and almost deep enough to cover a horse.
Now, I've underlined verse 11 because I think that some would agree that we haven't been "marked" but the beast yet as in the time of the last days
--but I have a different take on that which I won't go into--- so I think that the beginning of the Chapter would imply that the 144,000 were up in heaven before or at the time that the mark is imposed. Perhaps the people who were raised at the time of Christ's resurection or maybe other "Elijah's" that we don't know about?
Revelation 14 (Contemporary English Version)
The Lamb and His 144,000 Followers
1I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion! [a] With him were a hundred forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2Then I heard a sound from heaven that was like a roaring flood or loud thunder or even like the music of harps. 3And a new song was being sung in front of God's throne and in front of the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn that song, except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been rescued from the earth. 4All of these are pure virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he leads. They have been rescued to be presented to God and the Lamb as the most precious people [b] on earth. 5They never tell lies, and they are innocent. The Messages of the Three Angels
6I saw another angel. This one was flying across the sky and had the eternal good news to announce to the people of every race, tribe, language, and nation on earth. 7The angel shouted, "Worship and honor God! The time has come for him to judge everyone. Kneel down before the one who created heaven and earth, the oceans, and every stream."
8A second angel followed and said, "The great city of Babylon has fallen! This is the city that made all nations drunk and immoral. Now God is angry, and Babylon has fallen."
9Finally, a third angel came and shouted:
Here is what will happen if you worship the beast and the idol and have the mark of the beast on your hand or forehead. 10You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.
11If you worship the beast and the idol and accept the mark of its name, you will be tortured day and night. The smoke from your torture will go up forever and ever, and you will never be able to rest.
12God's people must learn to endure. They must also obey his commands and have faith in Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Put this in writing. From now on, the Lord will bless everyone who has faith in him when they die."
The Spirit answered, "Yes, they will rest from their hard work, and they will be rewarded for what they have done."
The Earth Is Harvested
14I looked and saw a bright cloud, and someone who seemed to be the Son of Man [c] was sitting on the cloud. He wore a gold crown on his head and held a sharp sickle [d] in his hand. 15An angel came out of the temple and shouted, "Start cutting with your sickle! Harvest season is here, and all crops on earth are ripe." 16The one on the cloud swung his sickle and harvested the crops. 17Another angel with a sharp sickle then came out of the temple in heaven. 18After this, an angel with power over fire came from the altar and shouted to the angel who had the sickle. He said, "All grapes on earth are ripe! Harvest them with your sharp sickle." 19The angel swung his sickle on earth and cut off its grapes. He threw them into a pit [e] where they were trampled on as a sign of God's anger. 20The pit was outside the city, and when the grapes were mashed, blood flowed out. The blood turned into a river that was about two hundred miles long and almost deep enough to cover a horse.
Now, I've underlined verse 11 because I think that some would agree that we haven't been "marked" but the beast yet as in the time of the last days
--but I have a different take on that which I won't go into--- so I think that the beginning of the Chapter would imply that the 144,000 were up in heaven before or at the time that the mark is imposed. Perhaps the people who were raised at the time of Christ's resurection or maybe other "Elijah's" that we don't know about?
G
the tongue in cheek part was because of my own definition of the rapture because OBVIOUSLY there's always people out there to pick us apart *winkwink*.
I'm not sure where you think I called God a liar, though *scratcheshead*.
I barely said a word there lol All I did was quote directly from the bible
You, dear Sir, should have yourself a blessed day.
I'm not sure where you think I called God a liar, though *scratcheshead*.
I barely said a word there lol All I did was quote directly from the bible
You, dear Sir, should have yourself a blessed day.
Do you get what I'm trying to say?
Now you may ask why I even said that is because you said:
I am not sure if those that do not "vanish" will know what is happening but in my opinion they will not know. you seem to indicate that the "just vanish" part is a bit unrealistic, I don't know about vanishing but I think it will be so quick that to the human eye it will appear as "just vanished". But this I do know and believe:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You don't have to participate in them all I ust wanted to wade through all the mud slinging.
As for what you have to say, I agree with the rest of the verses that were omitted in my original post.
Whereas one person is taken and the other one left, would you entertain the idea that maybe it's referring to the reality of the small numbers that will actually make it through the final days? I mean, if you believe in the 144,000 in a literal sense, and I'm not so sure that it is, that's not a lot of people when you think about how many people are on this planet at this very moment.
I"m not here to preach or be preached at, but I'm here to learn.
I ust wanted to wade through all the mud slinging.As for what you have to say, I agree with the rest of the verses that were omitted in my original post.
Whereas one person is taken and the other one left, would you entertain the idea that maybe it's referring to the reality of the small numbers that will actually make it through the final days? I mean, if you believe in the 144,000 in a literal sense, and I'm not so sure that it is, that's not a lot of people when you think about how many people are on this planet at this very moment.
I"m not here to preach or be preached at, but I'm here to learn.
oh I will stand up against false teachings and false doctrines, even if you all start a hundred of Them, just seems like if we are suppose to be about the Father's business, a hundred threads on the same topic is a waste of time , but isn't that how the devil wants it to be , three more threads on the rapture will keep us all on both sides very busy for a long time now, but dividing the truth, is as important as spreading the Gospel, for if we have not the truth then can we have a true Gospel, if you are here to learn, then read and study information already given. can a student learn by asking a question or by giving a statement . No my freind by your opening post, you are here to teach , and by saying you are not here to preach or teach then you just lost some Christain values in my book, concerning you and the truth. for if you can't be honest on why you are here then how can I trust your teachings. you gave 20 or more verses and then close with;
In conclusion, the rapture " implies" -and I say that toung in cheek- that people will just vanish while others are left without knowing a thing. I'm not looking for a negatively heated debate here. I myself question the very idea. After reading the above quoted passages, directly cut and pasted from the bible, I encourage your thoughtful responses May God be a blessing to you all!
May God be a blessing to you all!
D
Actually there are two comings of Christ. One He had already came on Earth. And the second when He returns to judge all the nations that come against Israel.
#1
1 John 4
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Now I don't really think you understood what you meant by that, as I don't believe you deny Yeshua coming in the flesh. Which would be His first coming.
Now... His second coming ...
#2
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
John 19
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”
37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Now.. That is the first coming which has already happened and this is the second coming which has not happened yet.
The part you are missing is.. Not Christ returning to Earth no.. I am pretty sure you understand that fairly well.. You are however missing the gathering of the Church spoke of in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
#1
1 John 4
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Now I don't really think you understood what you meant by that, as I don't believe you deny Yeshua coming in the flesh. Which would be His first coming.
Now... His second coming ...
#2
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
John 19
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”
37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Now.. That is the first coming which has already happened and this is the second coming which has not happened yet.
The part you are missing is.. Not Christ returning to Earth no.. I am pretty sure you understand that fairly well.. You are however missing the gathering of the Church spoke of in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
I meant there is only one future coming of Christ, I would thought you would have realized that. So to clarify, the is only one future coming of Christ. His first coming ''in the flesh'' was when He was born as a babe to Mary, when He lived died and rose again. He then ascended into Heaven and will return only once.
Actually it is you that misunderstanding. The gathering of the church is at the 2nd coming as the scripture you posted in 1st Thess 4 says.
1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The gathering of the church dead and alive occurs at the Coming of Christ according to scripture.
1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The gathering of the church dead and alive occurs at the Coming of Christ according to scripture.
It is you that denies the scriptures. There is no one passage iin all the Bible that would tell us the the coming of Christ mention in Matthew 24, and the com9ing of Christ mention in 1st Thess 4 are not the same coming. Matter of fact common since would tells us it must be the same coming seeing as there is only 2 coming on past, and one future. Both Matthew and 1st Thess 4 are speaking of the one and only future coming of Chris,t to say there not the same would be the denial of scripture.
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