The Rapture?

[Thaddaeus]

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Here both some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt will awake, not go up to be with Him in the clouds but will awake, nothing also about the ones that are still alive just the ones that sleep in the dust of the earth

does this sound anything like This:

where those that are asleep in Christ not those that are unsaved that face an everlasting contempt. but those in Christ will be raise first and be caught up/ raptured to be with Him in the clouds and not only those that are asleep but those which are alive shall be caught up/ raptured with the ones that are asleep to be with Him forever

1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


hey post tribbers God just showed me this please take note here if 1thes.4:13-18 is telling about His 2nd coming and about the resurrection where that both the lost and saved will be judge then Your doctrine preaches that all will be In heaven and none cast out for 1 thes . clearly says that all taken at this event will be with the Lord forever. have you ever noticed that, look Dude


and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Praise the Lord . looks like you may have to change your doctrine on the rapture or either your doctrine on salvation, do you realy want to preach that all lost and saved will be with the Lord forever up in the heavens

AND AGAIN I SAY TWO SEPARATE EVENTS!!!

 

[shad]

This is a joke, you are one of the main promoters of false doctrine in this forum.

God gives authority to His word through grace and truth. Any man can have scriptural knowledge but that knowledge will have no power to transform without grace and truth through the Holy Spirit. Humility allows God's grace and truth to implement and reveal the heart of God through His word. God's authority can only come through a humble and contrite heart that is submitted to the grace of God in truth. When we speak the word of God without grace it becomes the letter that kills but if we speak the word with grace it gives life to all those that will receive it / 2Cor 3:6, Is 55:11, John 6:63.

When a person is not established in the grace of God in his heart, they can not discern truth and the authority of the word of God. They have convinced themself of the truth and will swear that they are telling the truth and even say that God told them to tell it, but they have no authority because they lack the grace of God. Over time they get involved in much error because the Holy Spirit has been grieved and unable to guide them and give them grace. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of grace and truth / Heb 10:29, John 14:17. When a believer walks in the Spirit they are saturated with grace and are guided in the truth. They do not strive in the energy of the flesh to please God but walk in a faith that is motivated by love and have a testimony that they please God.

These believers are not trying to establish their own fruits of righteousness by keeping the commandments. Instead they are walking by faith in the promises of God and are filled with the fruits of the Spirit. If they fail 100 times in a day, they go to God by faith and receive grace for their failure and move on. They are not introspective nor do they live in fear because of their sin, but they know that God is gracious and merciful and he will restore them because they belong to Him and have His great salvation and imputed righteousness. They never worry about losing what God has given them through grace and they trust in the faithfulness of God. God is always making His grace their strength in the midst of their weakness. That is the God of the NT that will not change, who died and shed His blood to justify sinners by faith through that blood.

BTW- I see Pastor Keith as a man with a humble and contrite heart filled with grace, who loves God and is a faithful servant, who puts the word of God first and above all things.

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

wow buddy, no need to yell

 

[watchmen]

BTW- I see Pastor Keith as a man with a humble and contrite heart filled with grace, who loves God and is a faithful servant, who puts the word of God first and above all things.

You and he share the same deceiver.

 

[shrone]

You and he share the same deceiver.

whos the deceiver??.....and yea shad and pastor keith are both right...

 

[watchmen]

whos the deceiver??.....and yea shad and pastor keith are both right...

Satan has deceived them, and apparently he has deceived you too.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Colossians 2

20 Therefore,if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[Definition_Christ]

So I have a question.. For those of you who believe the Church is going through the great tribulation..

Revelation 2
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

So... THE LORD WILL NOT CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION IF THEY REPENT.

Why would God threaten to cast this corrupt Church into the great tribulation.. If He is planning on allowing the TRUE Church on "enduring" the great tribulation... Don't you think if they repent of their deeds they will escape the great tribulation and be raptured up with the true Church?


I mean.. Why would God really THREATEN a Church He will cast them into the great tribulation.. If the true Church is going to be cast into the tribulation?

Please explain!

 

[watchmen]

So I have a question.. For those of you who believe the Church is going through the great tribulation..

Revelation 2
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

So... THE LORD WILL NOT CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION IF THEY REPENT.

Why would God threaten to cast this corrupt Church into the great tribulation.. If He is planning on allowing the TRUE Church on "enduring" the great tribulation... Don't you think if they repent of their deeds they will escape the great tribulation and be raptured up with the true Church?


I mean.. Why would God really THREATEN a Church He will cast them into the great tribulation.. If the true Church is going to be cast into the tribulation?

Please explain!

God doesn't need to remove us from the earth to keep us from Tribulation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The idea of a pretrib rapture actually contradicts the very prayer of Christ himself.

 

[Definition_Christ]

You are adding to scripture. No where in this passage does it mention anything about a pretrib rapture maybe you should take a look at this verse from Revelation.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Hahaha... Okay let me SHOW you the Scripture....

Romans 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

So.... Let's add 2 and 2 together... What happens if the CHURCH REPENTS??.... Maybe... Just maybe ... God WON'T CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION???

Hello?...

LET'S see the faithful CHURCH....

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Definition_Christ]

God doesn't need to remove us from the earth to keep us from Tribulation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The idea of a pretrib rapture actually contradicts the very prayer of Christ himself.

LOL!... Really? THAT SCRIPTURE?.... Oh man...

You know we live in the world but not OF the world... We are lights in darkness?... Yeah... The darkness means EVIL... We live in evil.. That noway suggests anything about the Great Tribulation... LOL

Get real Watchmen.. Come on

 

[watchmen]

LOL!... Really? THAT SCRIPTURE?.... Oh man...

You know we live in the world but not OF the world... We are lights in darkness?... Yeah... The darkness means EVIL... We live in evil.. That noway suggests anything about the Great Tribulation... LOL

Get real Watchmen.. Come on

And yet Jesus prays that we will not be removed from the earth

God doesn't need to remove us from the earth to keep us from Tribulation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The idea of a pretrib rapture actually contradicts the very prayer of Christ himself.

Yet you claim the only way God can possibly keep us from tribulation, The Great tribulation, evil or temptation is by removing us from the earth. God does not need to remove us from the earth He never said He was going to remove us from the earth , and Jesus prayed that He wouldn't remove us from the earth, yet you claim He must and will. Why???? I just do not get your logic.

 

[Definition_Christ]

And yet Jesus prays that we will not be removed from the earth

Yet you claim the only way God can possibly keep us from tri9bulation, The Great tribulation, evil or temptation is by removing us from the earth.

Watchmen.. Do I have to spell this out for you? Please do not be ignorant.....

Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

 

[watchmen]

Hahaha... Okay let me SHOW you the Scripture....

Romans 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

So.... Let's add 2 and 2 together... What happens if the CHURCH REPENTS??.... Maybe... Just maybe ... God WON'T CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION???

Hello?...

LET'S see the faithful CHURCH....

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

For you to claim that Revelation 2:22 or 3:10 say anything about Jesus taking the church to heaven before the Great Tribulation is adding to scripture and according to Revelation 22:18 God will add to you the plagues mentioned in Revelation for doing so.

 

[Definition_Christ]

For you to claim that Revelation 2:22 or 3:10 say anything about Jesus taking the church to heaven before the Great Tribulation is adding to scripture and according to Revelation 22:18 God will add to you the plagues mentioned in Revelation for doing so.

You can continue in your ignorance brother. I have tried to correct you. You obviously KNOW for a fact what those two verses are saying. It's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS.. But just as Paul said...... Please humble yourself brother!! Until then... Even though I have tried to correct you... You do not accept that.

1 Corinthians 14:38
But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[watchmen]

Watchmen.. Do I have to spell this out for you? Please do not be ignorant.....

Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Yet it is you who is ignorant. Scripture plainly states that the rapture is at the coming of Christ.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And that the coming of Christ is immediately after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





It is obvious that you are the one that ignorantly refuses to add 2+2. The difference between you and me is I do not have to force scripture to say something it is not to believe as I do.

 

[watchmen]

I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible. Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both. God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just, as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming. It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and that the rapture comes after the resurrection. Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day. We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.

So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.
So why is the pretrib view taught, why is the church so deceived? What will happen to the preacher, pastor, and teachers that continue to deceive God's people? The pretrib rapture is taught because that is what people want to hear. It is what tickles their ears. No one wants to stand firm for God any more.

2nd Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust they shall heap together teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn their ears from the truth, and unto fables.

Yet the truth is we ought to stand firm for Christ in the face of all adversity, and overcome evil with good. We were never promised that we would avoid hardships, or even persecutions. Just the opposite, we are told we will have to go through many trials, tribulations, and pursecutions. We are commanded by Jesus to be faithful even unto death.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those thing which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

People who continually and regularly teach the pretrib rapture trying to convince others of it's validity are deceitful and subverted, following after their own bellies, rather than the will of God. They deceive many that know no better than to trust their word, and will have to stand before God one day and give an account. They will have to answer as to why they opposed God's word and promoted Satan's lie. They will not be found innocent in His sight.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yet it is you who is ignorant. Scripture plainly states that the rapture is at the coming of Christ.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And that the coming of Christ is immediately after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





It is obvious that you are the one that ignorantly refuses to add 2+2. The difference between you and me is I do not have to force scripture to say something it is not to believe as I do.

Hmm.. Let me point out to you something here...

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And just to show you something....


John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Okay... So obviously John 14:3 and Matthew 24 are NOT talking about the same thing... Matthew 24 is speaking of HIS ANGELS.... John 14:3 is talking about Yeshua HIMSELF... SO OBVIOUSLY... Those are two different events..... John 14:3 happens to be going with 1 Thes 4 because that NO way suggests angels gathering us.. It says the LORD HIMSELF...


Nice way to get off topic though and avoid those two key verses in Revelation.

Edit: No you have given NO evidence. You just can't argue with the truth .

 

[watchmen]

Hmm.. Let me point out to you something here...

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And just to show you something....


John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Okay... So obviously John 14:3 and Matthew 24 are NOT talking about the same thing... Matthew 24 is speaking of HIS ANGELS.... John 14:3 is talking about Yeshua HIMSELF... SO OBVIOUSLY... Those are two different events..... John 14:3 happens to be going with 1 Thes 4 because that NO way suggests angels gathering us.. It says the LORD HIMSELF...


Nice way to get off topic though and avoid those two key verses in Revelation.

Edit: No you have given NO evidence. You just can't argue with the truth .

As I said

I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible. Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both. God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just, as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming. It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and that the rapture comes after the resurrection. Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day. We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.

So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.
So why is the pretrib view taught, why is the church so deceived? What will happen to the preacher, pastor, and teachers that continue to deceive God's people? The pretrib rapture is taught because that is what people want to hear. It is what tickles their ears. No one wants to stand firm for God any more.

2nd Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust they shall heap together teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn their ears from the truth, and unto fables.

Yet the truth is we ought to stand firm for Christ in the face of all adversity, and overcome evil with good. We were never promised that we would avoid hardships, or even persecutions. Just the opposite, we are told we will have to go through many trials, tribulations, and pursecutions. We are commanded by Jesus to be faithful even unto death.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those thing which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

People who continually and regularly teach the pretrib rapture trying to convince others of it's validity are deceitful and subverted, following after their own bellies, rather than the will of God. They deceive many that know no better than to trust their word, and will have to stand before God one day and give an account. They will have to answer as to why they opposed God's word and promoted Satan's lie. They will not be found innocent in His sight.

You can see the truth because you refuse to. Anyone with eyes tio see knows that the coming of Christ in Matthew 24 ans 1 Thess 4 are the same and only future coming of Christ there will be The Lord will descend from Heaven after the tribulation and the angels will gather the elect. No scripture is an island unto itself but must be confirmed with other scripture to get full understanding of any doctrine.

John 14:1-3 Tells us we are going to be receive by Christ.
Matthew 24:29-31 tells us that the return of Christ is after the Tribulation, and that we will be gathered by the angels.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23 tells us there will be no resurrection between Christ resurrection and His post trib return.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53 tells us that we will be change into immortal Heavenly bodies.
1st Thess 4:13-18 Tells us that the dead are coming with Christ from Heaven, that the rapture is after the resurrection and that it occurs at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.

You cannot get the full understand of the doctrine of the 2nd coming/resurrection of the just, rapture from any one of these passages, but together when properly understood by people who care about truth and not man made doctrine you do understand that as Christ returns at the post trib 2nd coming the angels will first gather the dead from Heaven, they will come with Christ from Heaven their new immortal bodies will rise from the earth and be joined with their souls, then the living will be changed into their immortal heavenly bodies gather by the angels from earth and meet Jesus as well as the resurrected just in the air and received into Jesus, and when we read Luke 17:26-30, Romans 11:25-26, 2nd Thess 1:6-10, and Revelation 20:4-6 you realize that at this time the wicked are also destroyed by fire the Jewish nation spared God's wrath , and we reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

Pretribbers must separate these verse and try to interpret them separately mainly because they do not want to know the truth.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Well... Revelation 2:22 was a poor example on my part.. Sorry..

Rev 2:22
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.


I guess this is making no reference to "The Great Tribulation".. It just says "great tribulation" ..

However.. You are wrong about John 14, 1 Thes 4 and Matthew 24 all being the same.. It's very plain and simple they are two separate events.