The rapture?

[notuptome]

Noah was not taken away before the flood, but went through the Flood just like the rest of humanity.
The difference was that God protected Noah through the Flood, just like He will protect His Church from the judgements of the Great Tribulation.

It was not Noah who was taken away during the Flood, but the wicked who were taken away by the Flood; so will it be on the Day of the Lord.


The rapture is when Christ calls His Church (both dead and living) to meet Him in the air, as He returns to earth. We are caught up to Him, immediately transformed, and then descend with Him to earth to judge the world with Him.
This occurs at the Battle of Armageddon, when the Church has been gathered to one place, and the enemy has brought an army against them. Christ returns at that moment and saves His people physically, and physically judges the wicked.
The final spiritual judgement comes later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is celebrated after His return, and after the glorification of the Church.

Noah was sealed into the ark by God Himself. Noah was in a refuge, the ark, protected from the wrath of God upon the evil of this world.

The evil in this world is our tribulation now but when God sends His great tribulation upon the world we the church will be safe in the presence of Jesus.

Righteous Lot was vexed daily with the evil around him. God spared Lot by bringing him out of the city before the fire came down and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah.

Those who desire to be like Lots wife do so at their own peril. When the Lord descends with a shout and calls His church up I'm not going to look back to see what I'm leaving behind. I'm looking forward to see Jesus Who loves me and shed His blood to redeem my soul from what is coming upon the earth.

We are told to set our affections upon the things of heaven not this world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[p_rehbein]

Noah was not taken away before the flood, but went through the Flood just like the rest of humanity.
The difference was that God protected Noah through the Flood, just like He will protect His Church from the judgements of the Great Tribulation.

It was not Noah who was taken away during the Flood, but the wicked who were taken away by the Flood; so will it be on the Day of the Lord.


The rapture is when Christ calls His Church (both dead and living) to meet Him in the air, as He returns to earth. We are caught up to Him, immediately transformed,

^ yes, yes, yes ^

.............oops............

(you lost me right here....... )


and then descend with Him to earth to judge the world with Him.
This occurs at the Battle of Armageddon, when the Church has been gathered to one place, and the enemy has brought an army against them. Christ returns at that moment and saves His people physically, and physically judges the wicked.
The final spiritual judgement comes later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is celebrated after His return, and after the glorification of the Church.

but, hey, to each his own........... God bless

 

[Kerry]

Why would God pour out His Judgment on people that have placed their faith in the work that He performed?

Well I know you have faith in My Son, but instead of escaping you from My wrath I'm just gonna let you go through it and maybe you want be killed and if you are then you will be with Me anyhow so your children starve and you have to resist taking the mark to keep them from starving, but hey your strong and who knows you might just make it.

 

[Witness45]

I happen to be a post-triber myself, but I don't really see why it matters either way.

We are all called as disciples to make disciples of all the nations. Whether we live through the tribulation or not, we are still called to preach the gospel to everyone and will continue to do so until he does come whenever that may be. We should honestly be so busy evangelizing that we don't have time to sit and think about his coming, and what little time we do think about it we're not worried cause we know we're secured...

 

[Witness45]

Why would God pour out His Judgment on people that have placed their faith in the work that He performed?

Well I know you have faith in My Son, but instead of escaping you from My wrath I'm just gonna let you go through it and maybe you want be killed and if you are then you will be with Me anyhow so your children starve and you have to resist taking the mark to keep them from starving, but hey your strong and who knows you might just make it.

I really don't want to get into a big discussion, because of what I said above, it doesn't really matter. But just to be clear...

God's judgment and wrath is poured out on judgment day, not during the tribulation. Many people forget that God turns us over to the consequences of our sins in this life, he doesn't punish us for them, believer or non-believer. Punishment is reserved for judgment day. Sin has naturally negative consequences. In this life God convicts us of sin by showing us the exceedingly sinfulness of it, so that we turn away and repent. Punishment is brings damnation where as conviction brings repentance. It's not God actively punishing them per say, as it is him turning the world over to their sins and allowing the consequences of their sins to unfold.

Not only that, but in 2 Corinthians Chapters 11 and 12, Paul boasts about his sufferings because God's grace is made perfect in our weakness. When we are weak, then we are strong. The Bible says numerous times in multiple places how we are blessed when we persevere our sufferings and persecution. Be joyful when we suffer hardships and praise God, for great is our reward in heaven. And that when men persecute us we are heaping boiling rocks upon their heads...

It's ironic, but allowing us to suffer through the tribulation brings greater glory to God's people, and greater wrath upon the sinner...

 

[Elin]

i believe not to believe because there is no proof of why i should believe so i am in unbelief

You are a troll.

Trolls are not welcome here.

 

[Witness45]

You are a troll.

Trolls are not welcome here.

All should be welcome, especially those who persecute us.

 

[Kerry]

I really don't want to get into a big discussion, because of what I said above, it doesn't really matter. But just to be clear...

God's judgment and wrath is poured out on judgment day, not during the tribulation. Many people forget that God turns us over to the consequences of our sins in this life, he doesn't punish us for them, believer or non-believer. Punishment is reserved for judgment day. Sin has naturally negative consequences. In this life God convicts us of sin by showing us the exceedingly sinfulness of it, so that we turn away and repent. Punishment is brings damnation where as conviction brings repentance. It's not God actively punishing them per say, as it is him turning the world over to their sins and allowing the consequences of their sins to unfold.

Not only that, but in 2 Corinthians Chapters 11 and 12, Paul boasts about his sufferings because God's grace is made perfect in our weakness. When we are weak, then we are strong. The Bible says numerous times in multiple places how we are blessed when we persevere our sufferings and persecution. Be joyful when we suffer hardships and praise God, for great is our reward in heaven. And that when men persecute us we are heaping boiling rocks upon their heads...

It's ironic, but allowing us to suffer through the tribulation brings greater glory to God's people, and greater wrath upon the sinner...

Maybe I got confused, hey it happens, But isn't Angels that pour out the bowls and the vials at the direction of the throne,

 

[saved1975]

Interested in why you believe what you believe and how it is inline with the word. Simplified tho if you could as I struggle to read and write.

You will get a few different opinions, Some believe the mid tribulation rapture, some the post trib rapture.

The Bible teaches the pre tribulation rapture.
In Lk 21, Jesus is talking about the end times and coming tribulation, And in v 36 He says Watch and pray that you will esape these things.
In 1 Thess 5: Paul talking about the tribulation period, says in v 9, We aren't appointed to wrath, But to be delivered from it.

The "Wrath", Is two fold, The wrath of the devil, Rev 13: 12. and the wrath of God, Rev 6: 17.

Jesus said, no one will know when He is coming back, But if we had to go through the tribulation period, We will know exactly how long we'll have before Jesus comes.

The Christians have to go before the anti-Christ can come. If the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus, How is he going to deal with millions who are just like Jesus,
1 Jn 3: 2.
Eph 5: 27 says Jesus I coming for a glorious Church, The meaning is, a people just like Jesus, without spot or wrinkle, A eople doing outstanding miracles and great works of power.
And the devil couldn't compete. with such power.
"2 Thess 2: 3 says the Church will be raptured before the ant-Christ can come.
And Vs 6--7 says the Church is holding him back, And once we have gone, he can come.

 

[PlainWord]

1st Thessalonians 4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 .) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 .) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 .) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 .) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 .) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


This passage of Scripture and the first I posted should explain the concept of the "Rapture" for you......

Oh, but you stopped too soon. Keep reading.

1 Thes 5:

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

There you have it. Paul was describing the Day of the Lord, not some fabricated Pre-Trib Rapture. In fact, Paul specifically warns against the Pre-Trib doctrine in his second letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Consider this.

1) Same Audience
2) Same Author
3) Same Topic

How then can Paul be telling the Thessalonians that they will be raptured on the one hand then warning them against believing in a return that happens before the Man of Sin? The same people cannot be subject to both events. Read the Bold and Underlined portion over and over until it sinks in.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is false and Satan will use it to deceive the church into worshiping him. If you think the first "Christ" to appear is Jesus are you more or less likely to be deceived by a spiritual being claiming to be Christ come to "Rapture" you away?

 

[PlainWord]

You will get a few different opinions, Some believe the mid tribulation rapture, some the post trib rapture.

The Bible teaches the pre tribulation rapture.
In Lk 21, Jesus is talking about the end times and coming tribulation, And in v 36 He says Watch and pray that you will esape these things.
In 1 Thess 5: Paul talking about the tribulation period, says in v 9, We aren't appointed to wrath, But to be delivered from it.

The "Wrath", Is two fold, The wrath of the devil, Rev 13: 12. and the wrath of God, Rev 6: 17.

Jesus said, no one will know when He is coming back, But if we had to go through the tribulation period, We will know exactly how long we'll have before Jesus comes.

The Christians have to go before the anti-Christ can come. If the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus, How is he going to deal with millions who are just like Jesus,
1 Jn 3: 2.
Eph 5: 27 says Jesus I coming for a glorious Church, The meaning is, a people just like Jesus, without spot or wrinkle, A eople doing outstanding miracles and great works of power.
And the devil couldn't compete. with such power.
"2 Thess 2: 3 says the Church will be raptured before the ant-Christ can come.
And Vs 6--7 says the Church is holding him back, And once we have gone, he can come.

You must first understand what the Great Tribulation is and is not. The word "Tribulation" appears 29 times in the Bible. The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears 3 times. Of the 32 times combined where "Tribulation" appears 31 times it is used to describe PERSECUTION, TRIAL, TROUBLE and TESTING of Christians by the wicked. The one exception is in 2 Thes 1:6 where it is used as the Lord repaying with Tribulation those who trouble you (Believers).

Therefore the Church is most certainly on earth for the Great Tribulation. Jesus was tempted by Satan as an example to us how to defeat him. The Great Tribulation is the deception of AntiChrist. Satan is not coming to deceive the unbeliever - he has already deceived them. Satan comes to deceive the believer!!

Jesus defines the Great Tribulation period in Mat 24 and Mark 13. The only event(s) Christ discusses is the deception of the False Christ(s) during the tribulation period. God has to shorten those days for the sake of the Elect. Clearly if the Elect are on earth during the Tribulation, there can be no pre-Trib Rapture.

Further, Rev 7 discusses a Great Multitude in heaven who "COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION." This multitude is too great to number and are from all over the world. Thus, the church gets decimated during the Great Tribulation. Look at Christ's warning:

Mat 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Paul provides the same warning in 2 Thes 2:

...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

We have 2 clear warnings NOT TO BELIEVE ANY CHRIST RETURNS BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION!! Do not be deceived and do not go out for the first "Christ" who appears because it is SATAN and not JESUS!! I cannot stress this enough.

 

[john832]

Read them again:

I Corinthinas 15
51 .) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 .) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(sleep = bodily death)


1st Thessalonians 4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 .) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 .) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 .) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 .) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


A clear distinction is being made between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the "catching up" of saints still living at the Lord's return.

????

They bopth occur at the last trump and the return of Christ.

 

[john832]

You would do well to search scripture for the true great tribulation. That doctrine is poison.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[saved1975]

You must first understand what the Great Tribulation is and is not. The word "Tribulation" appears 29 times in the Bible. The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears 3 times. Of the 32 times combined where "Tribulation" appears 31 times it is used to describe PERSECUTION, TRIAL, TROUBLE and TESTING of Christians by the wicked. The one exception is in 2 Thes 1:6 where it is used as the Lord repaying with Tribulation those who trouble you (Believers).

Therefore the Church is most certainly on earth for the Great Tribulation. Jesus was tempted by Satan as an example to us how to defeat him. The Great Tribulation is the deception of AntiChrist. Satan is not coming to deceive the unbeliever - he has already deceived them. Satan comes to deceive the believer!!

Jesus defines the Great Tribulation period in Mat 24 and Mark 13. The only event(s) Christ discusses is the deception of the False Christ(s) during the tribulation period. God has to shorten those days for the sake of the Elect. Clearly if the Elect are on earth during the Tribulation, there can be no pre-Trib Rapture.

Further, Rev 7 discusses a Great Multitude in heaven who "COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION." This multitude is too great to number and are from all over the world. Thus, the church gets decimated during the Great Tribulation. Look at Christ's warning:

Mat 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Paul provides the same warning in 2 Thes 2:

...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

We have 2 clear warnings NOT TO BELIEVE ANY CHRIST RETURNS BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION!! Do not be deceived and do not go out for the first "Christ" who appears because it is SATAN and not JESUS!! I cannot stress this enough.

I know the difference between tribulation and the tribulation period.
And I know the Church doesn't go through the tribulation period.
If you read my post, you will see the scriptures that prove we are pre-trib raptured.

You are getting the "Elect Jews" Matt 24: 31. and Mk 13: 27. mixed up with the Church.

The pre-trib raptured Church comes back with Jesus, Then Jesus gathers the "ELECT JEWS", that go through the tribulation.

You wont find one scripture that says the Church will go through the tribulation period.


Those who are raptured in Rev 7, Are the people who get saved in the first part of the tribulation.

To believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Is to call Jesus and Paul liars.

1 Thess 1: 10 tells us that we will be delivered from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 2: 19. and 1 Thess 3: 13, says we will be coming with Jesus when He comes.
So how can we be on the earth going through the tribulation and coming with Jesus at the same time??.

Why on earth do people want to tribulate when the Bible says we are saved from it.

 

[saved1975]

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Not for the Christian Church.

We will be delivered from the coming wrath.
Lk 21: 36. 1 Thess 1: 10. 1 Thess 5: 9.

 

[JesusChica1991]

I don't believe we should be so stressed and worried about these events. The apostles had this mind for a while and Jesus reminded them to go on for their lives. We have been living in the last days since the Pentacost. Remember the Apostles thought they were living in the last days as well. I believe that we should nurture our faith with others like we are supposed to and the rest will fall into place as according to God's will. If it happens, then it happens. I'm not so worried about the order of how it happens.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Interested in why you believe what you believe and how it is inline with the word. Simplified tho if you could as I struggle to read and write.

I simply believe it because the Holy Bible tells me that it is going to happen. The Rapture is very close and imminent.

We Christians should start getting ready to meet Jesus Christ and we need to also prepare for the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), because that is our future Judgment.

 

[john832]

Not for the Christian Church.

We will be delivered from the coming wrath.
Lk 21: 36. 1 Thess 1: 10. 1 Thess 5: 9.

Not by a rapture but rather a flight to a Place of Safety. Rev 12:14-16

 

[PlainWord]

Noah was sealed into the ark by God Himself. Noah was in a refuge, the ark, protected from the wrath of God upon the evil of this world.

The evil in this world is our tribulation now but when God sends His great tribulation upon the world we the church will be safe in the presence of Jesus.

Righteous Lot was vexed daily with the evil around him. God spared Lot by bringing him out of the city before the fire came down and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah.

Those who desire to be like Lots wife do so at their own peril. When the Lord descends with a shout and calls His church up I'm not going to look back to see what I'm leaving behind. I'm looking forward to see Jesus Who loves me and shed His blood to redeem my soul from what is coming upon the earth.

We are told to set our affections upon the things of heaven not this world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Was Noah or Lot taken to heaven??? Neither were. The church will NOT be taken to heaven either to escape the Persecution and testing of Satan.

 

[PlainWord]

I know the difference between tribulation and the tribulation period.
And I know the Church doesn't go through the tribulation period.
If you read my post, you will see the scriptures that prove we are pre-trib raptured.

You are getting the "Elect Jews" Matt 24: 31. and Mk 13: 27. mixed up with the Church.

The pre-trib raptured Church comes back with Jesus, Then Jesus gathers the "ELECT JEWS", that go through the tribulation.

You wont find one scripture that says the Church will go through the tribulation period.


Those who are raptured in Rev 7, Are the people who get saved in the first part of the tribulation.

To believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Is to call Jesus and Paul liars.

1 Thess 1: 10 tells us that we will be delivered from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 2: 19. and 1 Thess 3: 13, says we will be coming with Jesus when He comes.
So how can we be on the earth going through the tribulation and coming with Jesus at the same time??.

Why on earth do people want to tribulate when the Bible says we are saved from it.

Like so many, you don't understand what the Great Tribulation period is. It is NOT GOD'S Wrath. It is the temptation of Satan to worship him as if he were God. God's wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Jesus says clearly in Mat 24:29-31 that HE comes AFTER the Tribulation.

Paul says clearly that "that day" (Day Christ returns) comes AFTER the Man of Sin 2 Thes 2.

Therefore, you are calling both liars, not me.

You do not have ONE SINGLE passage that states any of these so-called Rapture Key tenants.

1. The Lord returns BEFORE the Tribulation
2. The Lord does a u-turn after returning and goes back to heaven alone or with anyone
3. Any lesson where two returns of Christ are discussed.
4. Any lesson where the Saints (and/or Elect) alive during the Tribulation are distinguished from any other saint.

Satan comes acting as Christ to deceive the Church into worshiping him BEFORE our true Christ returns. That is fact and that is what the Bible teaches over and over. Read the events as Christ tells them for yourself. Christ tells you exactly what happens during the Tribulation and when He returns. He does NOT discuss any earlier Rapture return in the Olivet Discourse.

Mat 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Great Tribulation is all about Satan deception. God's wrath is poured out AFTER the Tribulation. Don't let the spiritual book of Revelation throw you and stop listening to the traditions of man. The Rapture is a new theory from 1830. It wasn't even popular in the church until Scofield Reference Bible promoted it in 1917.

Paul tells us when we get our rest. It is when the Lord returns with His wrath.

2 Thes 1:

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God's wrath doesn't come before the Tribulation, it comes AFTER!!!

Rev 18:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

The 144K are Firstfruits redeemed from among men, they are not last fruits taken after a Rapture. This fact is confirmed!!

Rev 14:

4 ...These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

1 Cor 15:

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Do you see the order here? Christ then the firstfruits then those who are Christ's at His coming????

Christ defeats death LAST, not FIRST as the Pre-Trib Rapture falsely teaches.

See below. Paul is crystal clear. Can't you see the correct order as Paul instructs??

1 Cor 15:

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

The Last enemy destroyed is death!!! Death is destroyed AFTER Christ reigns on earth. The changing of the living happens at the end of the Millennial Reign. It does NOT happen at the start. Go back and read all your supposed Rapture verses, none of them discuss any living person being changed. The only passage where this is discussed is here.

1 Cor 15:

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is not the Last Trump or 7th trumpet of Revelation as most think. It certainly is not at some fictious Pre-Trib Rapture event either. When must the living be changed?? Before the final eternal state and not before then.


Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Here we see in the context of Christ return ALL MUST DIE ONCE!!! The above says nothing about a transformation. The above says nothing about a Third return.