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He didn't change, He expounded. "You've heard it was like this, but we are raising the bar" Nowhere does it say not to protect the meek of the earth. You think He want's you to stand by and watch a child get murdered? all for the sake that you don't want to punch a guy in the jaw? That's a bruise. Assuredly the greater evil is that you let it happen.
Paul says we fulfill the Law by loving our neighbor (Romans 13:8-10). This is what James calls the Royal Law (James 2:8). However, Galatians essentially teaches us that we no longer need to be circumcised by the Law (Galatians 2:1-4). For Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13). For you have to understand that before Christ's death, it was still the Old Covenant. Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us believers (Colossians 2:14). For Jesus said shortly before the cross that the Old was about to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13). Jesus said that His blood was shed for the remission of sins for the New Testament. Jesus was teaching New Covenant so as to prepare people for the New Testament. For where the Law entered the offense might abound; But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (Romans 5:20).
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Hebrews 9:15-17).
This is talking about how there are still prophecies within the written Law of the Old Covenant Scriptures that still need to be fulfilled. It is not talking about how the Law of Moses would still remain in effect. For he blotted out those ordinances that were against us.
The Beattitudes in Matthew 5:3-10 is the context of the type of commandments that Christ is talking about here.
These Beattitudes will help a person to exceed the righteousness fo the scribes and the Pharisees.
I said this because there are a lot of self professing Christians out there who believe they can sin and still be saved (Thinking there is no Law whatsoever anymore).
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Hebrews 9:15-17).
This is talking about how there are still prophecies within the written Law of the Old Covenant Scriptures that still need to be fulfilled. It is not talking about how the Law of Moses would still remain in effect. For he blotted out those ordinances that were against us.
The Beattitudes in Matthew 5:3-10 is the context of the type of commandments that Christ is talking about here.
These Beattitudes will help a person to exceed the righteousness fo the scribes and the Pharisees.
I said this because there are a lot of self professing Christians out there who believe they can sin and still be saved (Thinking there is no Law whatsoever anymore).
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What about a child who isn't old enough to have confidence? I'm not scared and neither should you be. The truth is that we can die in an infinite number of ways, is that scary? not to me. I see it like a game with no reset button. God has my soul, so playing survival is kinda fun. But what in the world does that have to do with protecting the innocent?
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Raising the bar is still changing the bar, my friend. This is exactly what I was indicating before. It isn't God who changes, but the bar that does. Jesus is showing us a better way.
I see we've gone from "doing anything necessary" such as my example of cutting a guy in half to just hitting him in the jaw. Well that's good in case there are the teenagers and children reading the thread
It seems the assumption that praying and calling out to God is equivalent to doing nothing because God can't work unless it's through my right hand. It would seem the Israelites had a similar idea.
Hosea 10: [SUP]12 [/SUP]Sow with a view to righteousness,
Reap in accordance with kindness;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the Lord
Until He comes to rain righteousness on you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]You have plowed wickedness, you have reaped injustice,
You have eaten the fruit of lies.
Because you have trusted in your way, in your numerous warriors,
I see we've gone from "doing anything necessary" such as my example of cutting a guy in half to just hitting him in the jaw. Well that's good in case there are the teenagers and children reading the thread
It seems the assumption that praying and calling out to God is equivalent to doing nothing because God can't work unless it's through my right hand. It would seem the Israelites had a similar idea.
Hosea 10: [SUP]12 [/SUP]Sow with a view to righteousness,
Reap in accordance with kindness;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the Lord
Until He comes to rain righteousness on you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]You have plowed wickedness, you have reaped injustice,
You have eaten the fruit of lies.
Because you have trusted in your way, in your numerous warriors,
Milk and meat. 1st grade is different than kindergarten but it takes nothing away from what we've already learned. Jesus took it from just the physical to the principality of the situation. That doesn't mean we stop physically interacting with the world. Fact remains, there is nothing Godly about letting someone destroy an innocent who can't defend themselves. There is no reason and there is no scripture to support that idea.
[SUP]"13 [/SUP]You have plowed wickedness, you have reaped injustice,
You have eaten the fruit of lies.
Because you have trusted in your way, in your numerous warriors"
this scripture has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Are we reaping injustice and plowing wickedness when we are trying to protect a child? This scripture sounds a lot more like an army performing their own desires through force rather than trying to protect the innocent.
You have eaten the fruit of lies.
Because you have trusted in your way, in your numerous warriors"
this scripture has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Are we reaping injustice and plowing wickedness when we are trying to protect a child? This scripture sounds a lot more like an army performing their own desires through force rather than trying to protect the innocent.
E
It all has to do with our method, my friend, it all has to do with our method. If it is indeed God's method for us to protect the innocent with the sword (or in our case, the gun), then you would not be wrong to hope over to Syria or Iraq with a gun and declare a holy jihad against ISIS. Futhermore, you wouldn't be wrong to take your church to this affair. In fact, it would seem that the churches would be guilty who didn't go with you.
Yet, for some reason that just doesn't seem biblical. I think if we dig, we will find the reason. It will fly in the face of our culture and our desire for self-preservation, but it will still be there.
I am enjoying this conversation and thank you for taking the time to respond to me so speedily.
Yet, for some reason that just doesn't seem biblical. I think if we dig, we will find the reason. It will fly in the face of our culture and our desire for self-preservation, but it will still be there.
I am enjoying this conversation and thank you for taking the time to respond to me so speedily.
you are talking going out and becoming the peace of the world. I am talking about being in a place that God puts you in a situation He put you where there really is actually something you can do. Not seeking out violence or a war. However those same Jihadist's if two of them walked out into the street before me and dropped a man to his knees and pulled out a dagger I would absolutely shoot them dead. Who am I sparing by letting them kill the man? I'm not sparing the man, or any other people and I'm not even sparing the Jihadist who continue to pile coal on their head. All I know is that this conversation makes me ill. I can't express how saddened I am to know there are brothers like you and Jason out there. I couldn't even trust you to take my children on an outing because I couldn't trust you to bring them home safely.... crazy.
E
Hmm...well maybe you got me there.
Well what about all the Christians and Christian families that died to the Roman persecution? I can't think of one historical incidence when the Christians revolted and took to arms against Caesar for this revolting treatment of not just them, but also their families. These people seemed to truly believe that God was sovereign and that there is something golden to trusting not just your life but also your family's to God.
John Bunyan (the author of the Pilgrim's Progress) spend over 10 years in prison when he could have got out at any point by saying "I won't preach anymore". The man wasn't able to protect his family in prison. Was he an apostate?
Or what about these Jesus freaks that wouldn't say "Caesar is Lord" and got killed for it, thus disallowing them to protect their families? Or why didn't they just take out their sword and start lopping off heads so they could protect their families?
There's a lot of questions to be asked, my friend, and I don't think you will find an intellectually and spiritually honest answer with the path that you are on.
Well what about all the Christians and Christian families that died to the Roman persecution? I can't think of one historical incidence when the Christians revolted and took to arms against Caesar for this revolting treatment of not just them, but also their families. These people seemed to truly believe that God was sovereign and that there is something golden to trusting not just your life but also your family's to God.
John Bunyan (the author of the Pilgrim's Progress) spend over 10 years in prison when he could have got out at any point by saying "I won't preach anymore". The man wasn't able to protect his family in prison. Was he an apostate?
Or what about these Jesus freaks that wouldn't say "Caesar is Lord" and got killed for it, thus disallowing them to protect their families? Or why didn't they just take out their sword and start lopping off heads so they could protect their families?
There's a lot of questions to be asked, my friend, and I don't think you will find an intellectually and spiritually honest answer with the path that you are on.
there are simple answers to all of those questions brother. Please allow me to assist.
"There is a time for everything" again it's not what we do but why we do it. There is no universal answer because there is no universal problem, everything is a little different than everything else, that's why we can't rule anything out. Here you go 1 by 1
your first question.
Well what about all the Christians and Christian families that died to the Roman persecution? I can't think of one historical incidence when the Christians revolted and took to arms against Caesar for this revolting treatment of not just them, but also their families. These people seemed to truly believe that God was sovereign and that there is something golden to trusting not just your life but also your family's to God
Facing an army there is nothing to do but pray for your enemy and pray for your family and by leading your family in prayer you are sparing them from fear and God gives them courage as this situation is already lost. No amount of "lopping heads" is going to save you or your family from an army.
2 John Bunyan (the author of the Pilgrim's Progress) spend over 10 years in prison when he could have got out at any point by saying "I won't preach anymore". The man wasn't able to protect his family in prison. Was he an apostate?
God puts us in different situations and they require us to do different things. In this situation the man was persecuted for his faith, he loved God and trusted God and accepted the trials that were set before him. He did exactly what God wanted him to do. No he was not an apostate. Prison is kind of like being handicapped, if I have no arms or legs I can't protect my family either, but under no circumstance can I renounce God or shirk what God is asking me to do (in his case it was preaching)
3 Or what about these Jesus freaks that wouldn't say "Caesar is Lord" and got killed for it, thus disallowing them to protect their families? Or why didn't they just take out their sword and start lopping off heads so they could protect their families?
we could easily be faced with exactly this scenario with the antichrist. They did what God asked them to do and again they were taken by an entire army. They did God and their family a greater service by accepting their fate and trusting in God, not to deliver their bodies but their souls. If I am a father and my children are with me I know I can't get them out of this, I will much greater serve them by being a spiritual leader and getting everyone to focus on their relationship with Jesus Christ.
God asks that we do some things ourselves you know. Do you stop looking where you are driving while you trust God? do you stop looking where you are walking? do you start feeding your toddler hard candy and walk away trusting God? let your kid play with metal near an outlet? at some point you have to take some responsibility for your own life and the safety of the people around you. I have saved lives and you know what I do believe God did it. However He didn't save them with some mystical cloud. He sent me.
E
Overall, rather acceptable answers. I wouldn't fault someone for pushing someone away from their daughter or even for punching them if they were trying to protect their children. What I would fault them for is shooting the guy in the head or even owning a shotgun.
I think sometimes there is a chance that you could overcome your enemy with a weapon. Say for instance that someone broke into your house and had a knife pointed at your wife. Should you shoot him or should you pray? Or should you do both?
I don't think prayer should be our last resort...just when nothing else will work. I think it should be our first resort. I don't think it shows a good heart to be weighing in the balance whether we should trust God or ourselves. I know he put us here for a reason but I don't think that reason is bloody in nature. You know?
I think sometimes there is a chance that you could overcome your enemy with a weapon. Say for instance that someone broke into your house and had a knife pointed at your wife. Should you shoot him or should you pray? Or should you do both?
I don't think prayer should be our last resort...just when nothing else will work. I think it should be our first resort. I don't think it shows a good heart to be weighing in the balance whether we should trust God or ourselves. I know he put us here for a reason but I don't think that reason is bloody in nature. You know?
E
Indeed but feeding others and taking care of myself are things that are good in nature. Even scolding my child or punishing him is recommended in the Bible.
On the flip side, I don't think it is good to "do evil so that good may come". That evil is killing someone or even purposely severely injuring them.
Punching them or pushing them I don't have as much of a problem with but in the same instance I think it is always better to trust God.
On the flip side, I don't think it is good to "do evil so that good may come". That evil is killing someone or even purposely severely injuring them.
Punching them or pushing them I don't have as much of a problem with but in the same instance I think it is always better to trust God.
Of course the laws came to us through prophets, how else would we have gotten them from God?
Lets reiterate. Here is the verse you addressed.
"18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Here is your statement
"This is talking about how there are still prophecies within the written Law of the Old Covenant Scriptures that still need to be fulfilled. It is not talking about how the Law of Moses would still remain in effect. For he blotted out those ordinances that were against us."
Here is the problem. What is a jot or tittle? =
A small diacritic mark, such as an accent, vowel mark, or dot over an i. 2. The tiniest bit; an iota.
So what is Jesus saying? either He is talking about the laws or He is talking about the entire books containing the laws, either way He says "not the smallest dot will be removed"
Again "not the smallest dot will pass from the law til ALL be fulfilled."
You don't have the authority to say "he was talking about prophecies" Jesus said not the smallest dot will pass from the law. Period.
Overall, rather acceptable answers. I wouldn't fault someone for pushing someon
Reply With Quotee away from their daughter or even for punching them if they were trying to protect their children. What I would fault them for is shooting the guy in the head or even owning a shotgun.
I think sometimes there is a chance that you could overcome your enemy with a weapon. Say for instance that someone broke into your house and had a knife pointed at your wife. Should you shoot him or should you pray? Or should you do both?
I don't think prayer should be our last resort...just when nothing else will work. I think it should be our first resort. I don't think it shows a good heart to be weighing in the balance whether we should trust God or ourselves. I know he put us here for a reason but I don't think that reason is bloody in nature. You know?
I think sometimes there is a chance that you could overcome your enemy with a weapon. Say for instance that someone broke into your house and had a knife pointed at your wife. Should you shoot him or should you pray? Or should you do both?
I don't think prayer should be our last resort...just when nothing else will work. I think it should be our first resort. I don't think it shows a good heart to be weighing in the balance whether we should trust God or ourselves. I know he put us here for a reason but I don't think that reason is bloody in nature. You know?