The Trinity Discussion

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B

bluto

Senior Member
#1,101
Aug 4, 2016
2,043
513
113
#1,101
Dagallen said:
I believe that the story of Moses and the burning bush is conformation for mankind, that we might have an understanding of how God did the things he did, by saying Moses did not hear God's actual voice at anytime nor see his form, would be correct and is backed by John 1:18 No man ( applies to all ) has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him. Also John 5:37 is even a stronger statement. And the Father himself, which sent me, has borne witness of me, you have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form. ( and that's that )
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No dagallen, it's not "and that's that." You rightly quote John 5:37 but Jesus is addressing the Jews who want Him dead. The have never heard the Father's voice. Look at Mark 1:3, where God the Father says, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloeved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." So God the Father did speake out of heaven and was heard.

Or look at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shal lsay to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven." Since there is evidence that God the Father has spoken out of heaven I want you to see what is said at Genesis 22:10-18. This is where Abraham is going to sacrifice his only begotten son Issac.

Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son, vs11, BUT the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here I am. vs12, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, you only son, from Me." At vs13 Abraham catches a ram to sacrifice to the Lord. Vs14, Abraham says the Lord will provide.

Now watch vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called out to Abraham a second time from heaven." vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, (why dagellen?) BECAUSE YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."

So what we have here is God speaking out of heaven at Mark 1:3 and at Exodus 20:22 in the OT. Opps, God also was heard speaking at Deuteronomy 5:24-25. Then at Genesis 22 we see the angel of the Lord speaking out of heaven two times claiming to be the Lord God. How do you explain that dagallen, or bronson? Do you still think the angel of the Lord is an angel? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
D

Dagallen

Guest
#1,102
#1,102
bluto said:
No dagallen, it's not "and that's that." You rightly quote John 5:37 but Jesus is addressing the Jews who want Him dead. The have never heard the Father's voice. Look at Mark 1:3, where God the Father says, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloeved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." So God the Father did speake out of heaven and was heard.

Or look at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shal lsay to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven." Since there is evidence that God the Father has spoken out of heaven I want you to see what is said at Genesis 22:10-18. This is where Abraham is going to sacrifice his only begotten son Issac.

Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son, vs11, BUT the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here I am. vs12, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, you only son, from Me." At vs13 Abraham catches a ram to sacrifice to the Lord. Vs14, Abraham says the Lord will provide.

Now watch vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called out to Abraham a second time from heaven." vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, (why dagellen?) BECAUSE YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."

So what we have here is God speaking out of heaven at Mark 1:3 and at Exodus 20:22 in the OT. Opps, God also was heard speaking at Deuteronomy 5:24-25. Then at Genesis 22 we see the angel of the Lord speaking out of heaven two times claiming to be the Lord God. How do you explain that dagallen, or bronson? Do you still think the angel of the Lord is an angel? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto[/consumed
I think you are still consumed by metaphorically speaking or figuratively speaking, which is used throughout scriptures.
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B

Bronson

Banned
#1,104
Jul 26, 2017
155
1
0
#1,104
bluto said:
It's clearly obvious bronson that you have a reading "comprehension" problem. I clearly stated that when one sees the word angel in the Old Testament (which is the Hebrew word, "malak") it does not necessarily mean that it's an actual angel like Michael or Gabriel. I even gave an example from Malachi 3:1 where it says, "Behold I send My "malak" and he will clear the way before Me." So you tell me bronson, what is the name of the "malak/angel/messenger that the Lord is sending to clear the way of the Lord?

And you still have not told me who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2 that claimed He was the Lord God Almighty. Is this question too hard for you bronson? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
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No question is too hard to ask, but with people like you the answer is to hard to accept. The Angel in the burning bush was allowed to show some of Gods glory. The spiritual angels see God. I must be an angel or the scripture that No man has seen God and lived is wrong.
 
B

Bronson

Banned
#1,105
Jul 26, 2017
155
1
0
#1,105
Angel of the LORD must be from the KJV as it took Jehovah's name out of the interpretation that King James ordered to spite the Catholics. Even so, it is the angel talking not God or the lord God.


So what we have here is God speaking out of heaven

So, who has a comprehension problem?
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#1,106
Aug 4, 2016
2,043
513
113
#1,106
Bronson said:
Angel of the LORD must be from the KJV as it took Jehovah's name out of the interpretation that King James ordered to spite the Catholics. Even so, it is the angel talking not God or the lord God.


So what we have here is God speaking out of heaven

So, who has a comprehension problem?
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First of all bronson I don't use the KJV, I use the NASB but no matter even your NWT says, "Jehovah's angel" but it does change the facts. Now, I wrote this to dagallen and he does not have an answer so maybe you can answer what I wrote from Genesis 22. Please read it and then I will tell you why from the context the angel of Jehovah is not an angel.

I want you to see what is said at Genesis 22:10-18. This is where Abraham is going to sacrifice his only begotten son Issac.

Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son, vs11, BUT the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here I am. vs12, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, you only son, from Me." At vs13 Abraham catches a ram to sacrifice to the Lord. Vs14, Abraham says the Lord will provide.

Now watch vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called out to Abraham a second time from heaven." vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, (why dagellen?) BECAUSE YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."

So what we have here is God speaking out of heaven at Mark 1:3 and at Exodus 20:22 in the OT. Opps, God also was heard speaking at Deuteronomy 5:24-25. Then at Genesis 22 we see the angel of the Lord speaking out of heaven two times claiming to be the Lord God. How do you explain that dagallen, or bronson? Do you still think the angel of the Lord is an angel? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#1,108
Aug 4, 2016
2,043
513
113
#1,108
Bronson said:
Yes! I do, and it is the correct way to look at it.
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You still don't get it bronson. Here is what Hebrews 6:13-14 says which is referring to Genesis 22. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

The writer of Hebrews is quoting Genesis 22:16-17 verbatim and what you don't understand is the fact that CANNOT SWEAR OATHS ON BEHALF OF GOD. Even the text itself says God swore by Himself. Do you know what a"shaliach" is bronson? It's a person who is the agent or emissary for a principal. It's akin to say the President sends an emissary to another country to represent the President. And the "shaliach" can do almost anything except swear an oath on behalf of the President. This is from the Jewish disctionay.

Not only that but God's personified attributes are not beings separate from God, but are God Himself in His self-manifestation. And who do you think is the visible manifestation of God according to John 1:18? Jesus Christ is a divine envoy who does not merely bring infromation but who "mediates" a fully authentic and genuine encounter with the God who "sent" him, and nothing less than that. Jesus is not only the mediator in the NT but in the OT as well.

And to backtrack for a minute. Remember I gave you Genesis 17:1-2 and ask you who appeared to Abraham that claimed to be the Lord God. Well look at Genesis 16:7 which is the first appearance of the angel of the Lord. He meets with Hagar and multiplies here descendants at vs10. She then says at vs13, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him/God."

The question I was going to ask you is this? Is the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants at Genesis 17 the same being who multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16? The answer of course is yes. Now what are going to tell me bronson? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#1,109
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#1,109
Why is there arguing over the angel in the bush seen here:

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

?

I see arguing over whether this is an angel or not. The word translated Angel does not have to mean angelic being which was created it can simply mean the messenger of the Lord or ambassador of the Lord.

What is clear is who is speaking:

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

It is God, the messenger is God himself. The verse is most clear and simple that God called out of the midst of the bush. Not God in heaven through and angelic being.

So then it is settled God is the messenger and the word angel does not mean angelic created being.

trying to say its God speaking form heaven is adding something that is not seen in the text at all. Just read what it says not what you want it to say.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#1,110
Jul 3, 2015
56,021
26,149
113
#1,110
gotime said:
trying to say its God speaking form heaven is adding something that is not seen in the text at all. Just read what it says not what you want it to say.
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But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." (Genesis 22:11)
 
B

Bronson

Banned
#1,111
Jul 26, 2017
155
1
0
#1,111
bluto said:
You still don't get it bronson. Here is what Hebrews 6:13-14 says which is referring to Genesis 22. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

The writer of Hebrews is quoting Genesis 22:16-17 verbatim and what you don't understand is the fact that CANNOT SWEAR OATHS ON BEHALF OF GOD. Even the text itself says God swore by Himself. Do you know what a"shaliach" is bronson? It's a person who is the agent or emissary for a principal. It's akin to say the President sends an emissary to another country to represent the President. And the "shaliach" can do almost anything except swear an oath on behalf of the President. This is from the Jewish disctionay.

Not only that but God's personified attributes are not beings separate from God, but are God Himself in His self-manifestation. And who do you think is the visible manifestation of God according to John 1:18? Jesus Christ is a divine envoy who does not merely bring infromation but who "mediates" a fully authentic and genuine encounter with the God who "sent" him, and nothing less than that. Jesus is not only the mediator in the NT but in the OT as well.

And to backtrack for a minute. Remember I gave you Genesis 17:1-2 and ask you who appeared to Abraham that claimed to be the Lord God. Well look at Genesis 16:7 which is the first appearance of the angel of the Lord. He meets with Hagar and multiplies here descendants at vs10. She then says at vs13, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him/God."

The question I was going to ask you is this? Is the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants at Genesis 17 the same being who multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16? The answer of course is yes. Now what are going to tell me bronson? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
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I am going to tell you nothing, zilch, nix as you are set in your superior house of learning and there is no way to get you out.
 
B

Bronson

Banned
#1,112
Jul 26, 2017
155
1
0
#1,112
gotime said:
Why is there arguing over the angel in the bush seen here:

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

?

I see arguing over whether this is an angel or not. The word translated Angel does not have to mean angelic being which was created it can simply mean the messenger of the Lord or ambassador of the Lord.

What is clear is who is speaking:

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

It is God, the messenger is God himself. The verse is most clear and simple that God called out of the midst of the bush. Not God in heaven through and angelic being.

So then it is settled God is the messenger and the word angel does not mean angelic created being.

trying to say its God speaking form heaven is adding something that is not seen in the text at all. Just read what it says not what you want it to say.
Click to expand...
I must admit, I did get something form your post...I have the same typo habit of writing form instead of from. LOL
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#1,113
Jul 3, 2015
56,021
26,149
113
#1,113
Bronson said:
I am going to tell you nothing, zilch, nix as you are set in your superior house of learning and there is no way to get you out.
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I am curious to know: what do you do with John 1:14?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#1,115
Jul 3, 2015
56,021
26,149
113
#1,115
Bronson said:
You are on a different planet to me, maybe bluto will take you under his massive intellect.
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Obviously you have no intelligent answer.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

A child could understand that.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#1,116
#1,116
graceNpeace said:
You have put the cart before the horse!
This is NOT what I said.
Before you know something specific about someone does NOT necessarily mean you knew nothing about them before becoming aware of that specific fact...
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ok now i am lost. i asked the benefit of the trinity, you responded with:

If one is in a love relationship then it is important to understand the person/persons that you love...
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what exactly did you mean by this? because it sounds like your trying to say without the trinity one can not have understanding of the Most High.
so now your saying people can have plenty of understanding of the Most High, like Moses, without the trinity belief?
 
B

Bronson

Banned
#1,117
Jul 26, 2017
155
1
0
#1,117
Bluto, old mate I have a brilliant suggestion for you. Why don't you go into JW.org, take any subject on the Bible and then tell me the ones that your have PROVEN wrong. Waddayareckon, Hey? Good idea or what??????
 
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