The two witnesses

[dcontroversal]

Here are all the great city verses of the book of Revelation (from the KJV):

So where does the identity of the great city in Rev 11:8 change from Jerusalem to another city?

Simple question really.

It never was called Babylon......and do you really think Jerusalem or even Rome would have been a Mystery to JOHN.....Not likely and your grasping at straws........

 

[Locutus]

the better question is how do you see that the scripture you provided applies to Babylon,possibly because it's called "great city",in your scripture it is speaking on Jerusalem not Babylon,both are called "great cities" but so is "Nineveh" that doesn't mean that every "great city" is Babylon nor otherwise,you can't have things both ways,Jesus was crucified outside of Jerusalem away from the city,but Babylon is not Jerusalem for how beit that only Babylon is known as "the great whore" where as Jerusalem is not said as being equally sinful and abominable as Babylon for Babylon with it's wiles and idolatry angered God for Babylon tempted his people and slew many of his prophets,not Jerusalem,and in that same chapter it is written that an earthquake destroyed the tenth part of the city,Babylon however in a later chapter is spoken of as "not having God's wrath poured out upon it yet,for if Jerusalem were Babylon then why were they who died for God still troubled asking"how long before we are avenged"?
showing that Babylon had not yet been overthrown by God yet per vengeance for the fallen of God's people,thereby your claim makes "no sense" for Jerusalem was quaked but Babylon hadn't yet received it's appropriate judgement.

You need to slow down Joe - one step at a time:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So it looks to me that you are saying the Lord was not crucified in the city of Jerusalem then?

And you are basing this on a technicality that he was crucified just outside of Jerusalem - Correct?

So which great city is John saying "their dead bodies shall lie in"?

 

[Bladerunner]

1. Tribulation (thilipsis) and wrath (orge) are two entirely different animals with two different applications. The great tribulation is applicable and applied unto ALL and everyone will endure it including the saved and the lost. Through MUCH tribulation we must enter the kingdom JESUS SAID. Wrath is the fiery indignation of God and is applied unto the lost who will face it under the banner of the beast and his kingdom, Israel will go thru it all and be preserved during the wrath. A multitude of scripture in conetxt proves all of this.

2. The last trump is the last trump. At it we find 3 things....The Lord seizes all earthly kingdoms as LORD, as Christ he resurrect/changes and then rewards the saints, prophets and those who fear God young and old, as God he pours out his wrath upon those who are actively destroying the earth. JESUS is LORD, CHRIST and GOD and PETER and PAUL have tied ALL three days together as one and that one day commences at the LAST TRUMP.

3. A Grandsville Sharp is used in Greek and equates to the following....Paul 2nd Thessalonians 2. We beseech you brethren by the Parousia (Body presence/coming) of JESUS, THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.......The GATHERING together of the SAINTS unto Christ is the COMING of JESUS (Parousia-->BODY PRESENCE) AND PAUL lists two things that MUST take place first in this context. THE MAN of SIN being revealed and the apo-hystamie from the truth (apostasy) JESUS WILL NOT COME until these two take place (amongst other thing as well)

4. At the sounding of the 7th trump in Revelation two things are also mentioned....the Mystery should be finished I.E> the resurrection/change and TIME shall be no more which has numerous applications.....as applied unto the saved, lost, world, kingdom of the beast etc. For the saved we are transformed or resurrected in our eternal bodies, for the lost wrath, for the Kingdoms of the world all gentile rule ends, for the beast and his kingdom wrath.......

No, Babylon is not a mystery when all the facts are taken into account....it is woven in with classical Babylon, has 80 characteristics found in 7-8 books and about 13 chapters....10.5 billion to 1 when the math is done....It was a Mystery to JOHN when he wrote Revelation and John knew full well about Rome.

believe if I were you and others that like to imbellish the Word of GOD. Deut 12:32.."Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. "

 

[joefizz]

LOL, what land did Pharaoh rule over?

And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh's. Gen 47:20

But wait, let's look at this scripture in context with the passage in Genesis 47.

[11] What land did Pharaoh command be given Israel for a possession being the best of the land, in the land of Rameses?

[13] When there was no bread in all the land of Pharaoh, what land was there no bread?

[14] When Jospeh gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Pharaoh, what land did he gather that money from?

Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: [See Genesis 47:23]

Ever hear the parable of the sower?

You miss my point,the people of canaan eventually became bond servants to pharoah but they didn't claim it as as "New canaan" or some such,The same is true of Babylon,many kings have had "control"'over Jerusalem but it didn't make Jerusalem no longer Jerusalem,Babylon has always been for Abominations no matter what name it takes,where as Jerusalem has not,quite a strange thing to call Jerusalem Babylon when it simply isn't possible.

 

[dcontroversal]

believe if I were you and others that like to imbellish the Word of GOD. Deut 12:32.."Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. "

I embellished nothing and is that all you have....

 

[joefizz]

You need to slow down Joe - one step at a time:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So it looks to me that you are saying the Lord was not crucified in the city of Jerusalem then?

And you are basing this on a technicality that he was crucified just outside of Jerusalem - Correct?

So which great city is John saying "their dead bodies shall lie in"?

Have you read your own posted scripture?
Jesus was not crucified in or outside Babylon yet somehow you have turned Jerusalem into Babylon,for it says "where also our lord was crucified" now I don't know about you but my lord is Jesus,not balaam or any other man made God,so my lord was born in Bethlehem,and crucified at "Calvary"(place near Jerusalem) is that so hard to understand?

 

[kaijo]

I am 99% sure I know, but I am not telling you because you will not believe me.

I have a theory as to what Mystery Babylon is. But what are your thoughts on it?

Do you believe its an "actual" place on the earth?

 

[Locutus]

Have you read your own posted scripture?
Jesus was not crucified in or outside Babylon yet somehow you have turned Jerusalem into Babylon,for it says "where also our lord was crucified" now I don't know about you but my lord is Jesus,not balaam or any other man made God,so my lord was born in Bethlehem,and crucified at "Calvary"(place near Jerusalem) is that so hard to understand?

Which great city will the two witnesses dead bodies lie in?


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Is Calvary a great city?

 

[dcontroversal]

I have a theory as to what Mystery Babylon is. But what are your thoughts on it?

Do you believe its an "actual" place on the earth?

I do....it states clearly that it is and you missed a comma....

MYSTERY, BABYLON, that MEGA city where the Kings of the Earth meet....

 

[Locutus]

Have you read your own posted scripture?
Jesus was not crucified in or outside Babylon yet somehow you have turned Jerusalem into Babylon,for it says "where also our lord was crucified" now I don't know about you but my lord is Jesus,not balaam or any other man made God,so my lord was born in Bethlehem,and crucified at "Calvary"(place near Jerusalem) is that so hard to understand?

Let's look at the context leading up to John mentioning the two witnesses:

Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

Rev 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.


Rev 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”


In the above the city is clearly Jerusalem, so when John states that the two witnesses bodies will lie in the streets of the great city "mystically is called Sodom and Egypt" then there can be no doubt that Jerusalem is the great city identified by John.


Rev 11;8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

 

[joefizz]

Let's look at the context leading up to John mentioning the two witnesses:

Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

Rev 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.


Rev 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”


In the above the city is clearly Jerusalem, so when John states that the two witnesses bodies will lie in the streets of the great city "mystically is called Sodom and Egypt" then there can be no doubt that Jerusalem is the great city identified by John.


Rev 11;8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Yeah Jerusalem,but you have said that Babylon is Jerusalem which makes"no sense".

 

[Adstar]

Ok so its not one man, does it have to even be a man?
What about the testament's, could the two witnesses be the 1st & 2nd testement?

They are definitly men..

Revelation 11: KJV
{7} And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. {8} And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. {9} And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. {10} And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. {11} And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. {12} And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

The first chapter of John is a good passage that's a huge hint who the Two Witnesses are.

 

[Bladerunner]

1. Tribulation (thilipsis) and wrath (orge) are two entirely different animals with two different applications. The great tribulation is applicable and applied unto ALL and everyone will endure it including the saved and the lost. Through MUCH tribulation we must enter the kingdom JESUS SAID. Wrath is the fiery indignation of God and is applied unto the lost who will face it under the banner of the beast and his kingdom, Israel will go thru it all and be preserved during the wrath. A multitude of scripture in conetxt proves all of this.

By this, I surmise you are a Amilenniial with a Post-trib flair for good measure.

2. The last trump is the last trump. At it we find 3 things....The Lord seizes all earthly kingdoms as LORD, as Christ he resurrect/changes and then rewards the saints, prophets and those who fear God young and old, as God he pours out his wrath upon those who are actively destroying the earth. JESUS is LORD, CHRIST and GOD and PETER and PAUL have tied ALL three days together as one and that one day commences at the LAST TRUMP.



3. A Grandsville Sharp is used in Greek and equates to the following....Paul 2nd Thessalonians 2. We beseech you brethren by the Parousia (Body presence/coming) of JESUS, THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.......The GATHERING together of the SAINTS unto Christ is the COMING of JESUS (Parousia-->BODY PRESENCE) AND PAUL lists two things that MUST take place first in this context. THE MAN of SIN being revealed and the apo-hystamie from the truth (apostasy) JESUS WILL NOT COME until these two take place (amongst other thing as well)

4. At the sounding of the 7th trump in Revelation two things are also mentioned....the Mystery should be finished I.E> the resurrection/change and TIME shall be no more which has numerous applications.....as applied unto the saved, lost, world, kingdom of the beast etc. For the saved we are transformed or resurrected in our eternal bodies, for the lost wrath, for the Kingdoms of the world all gentile rule ends, for the beast and his kingdom wrath.......

No, Babylon is not a mystery when all the facts are taken into account....it is woven in with classical Babylon, has 80 characteristics found in 7-8 books and about 13 chapters....10.5 billion to 1 when the math is done....It was a Mystery to JOHN when he wrote Revelation and John knew full well about Rome.

By the first paragraph, I surmise you are a Amillennial with a Post-trib flair for good measure. What happened to you. You had said you grew up in what a Pre-trib Rapture scenario. What changed your mind I have no idea but it certainly was not from reading God's Word literally as it is apparent you do not.

There is one verse I would like to share with you. 2 Thes 2:10-11..."10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

While I do not know your situation, I believe I can safely say that you do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture which Jesus tells us about in 1 Thess 4:13-18.... "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Me, my backup plan is that I die of old age and meet the Lord in Heaven that is unless He comes down to claim his Bride (of which I am a part of) first in what is called in the Latin Vulgate called......The Rapture.

From the verses 2 thes 2:10-11, by reading them literally of course, a second chance will not be offered. For those who were shown the truth and of their own free will have decided not to believe it, well-----His WORD,,,His Authority, His Glory is all there. One way or the other.

You still have time to make a Choice but time is getting short. Being a marine, I am sure you know what that means.

 

[kaijo]

I do....it states clearly that it is and you missed a comma....

MYSTERY, BABYLON, that MEGA city where the Kings of the Earth meet....

Could you plz give me the verse of that quote please?

Im looking at REV 17:5 , but it says something different....i did a quick google, but cant see the verse you quoted above.

Thx

 

[Bladerunner]

I have a theory as to what Mystery Babylon is. But what are your thoughts on it?

Do you believe its an "actual" place on the earth?

Mystery Babylon is the RCC, the false Prophet, The Harlot who rides the Beast.

 

[Locutus]

Yeah Jerusalem,but you have said that Babylon is Jerusalem which makes"no sense".

John is using Babylon in a "mystical sense" Joe, just as he used the mystical sense of Sodom and Egypt.

Some think the the RC church and Rome are "Mystery Babylon" it was common during the early protestant revolution.

John claims that mystery Babylon is judged for killing the prophets:

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth".

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

If John "wondered greatly" knowing the cruelty and suffering imposed on those in Israel by the Romans we have to consider that Rome is not in view here as "mystery Babylon".

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

Rev 18:24 “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

Rev 19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

Rev 19:2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.”

Notice how in Rev 18:20 that the saints, apostles and prophets were to rejoice at the judgment of the whore.

Rome was and is not guilty of killing the prophets, Jesus stated who that judgment would fall on:

Matt 23:34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

Matt 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Matt 23:36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Matt 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Consider this, are there two judgements for killing the prophets, one that Jesus spoke of and one that John spoke of or are they one and the same?

If they are the same when will it happen and on what city will it fall?

If they are two different judgments, one for Jerusalem and one on "Babylon" how does the blood of the old covenant prophets and the apostles and "all righteous blood" get laid at the "feet" of "Babylon" when is has been applied to Jerusalem?

Does Jerusalem and "Babylon" get punished for the same acts?

 

[Bladerunner]

I do....it states clearly that it is and you missed a comma....

MYSTERY, BABYLON, that MEGA city where the Kings of the Earth meet....

I surmise you are going to say it is Jerusalem....There is a funny attribute to Revelation. All the signs, symbols and allusions are revealed to each person who really reads its pages. In other words, it tells us who the Mystery is; for Babylon the Great is no less than the RCC.