The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I disagree that the law of Moses (of which the 10 commandments are part) will judge anyone who was not under the old covenant.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Romans 2:12

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:18-19
​

 

[just-me]

The new covenant supersedes all of the old covenants it fulfilled: circumcision, old blood covenant (law of Moses), salt covenant of David. Once a shadow has been superceded by the light, there is no going back to that which is no longer profitable.

So you are saying the the Mosaic law is the same as the old covenant then?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you are saying the the Mosaic law is the same as the old covenant then?

No. The law of Moses is the law of the old covenant. The old covenant was a binding agreement between Israel and GOD in which GOD would do his part, and Israel would do its part. The law of Moses defines Israel's responsibilities under the old covenant.

 

[zone]

I disagree that the law of Moses (of which the 10 commandments are part) will judge anyone who was not under the old covenant.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Romans 2:12

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:18-19
​

okay. i'm not married to it.
what does this mean, then?

Revelation 20:13
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.


νόμος ἔργων, the law which demands good works, Romans 3:27; with a suggestion of toil, or struggle with hindrances, in the phrase καταπαύειν ἀπό τῶν ἔργων αὐτοῦ, Hebrews 4:10; to recompense one κατά τά ἔργα αὐτοῦ, Romans 2:6; 2 Timothy 4:14; Revelation 2:23 (Psalm 61:13 ()), cf. 2 Corinthians 11:15; Revelation 18:6; Revelation 20:12f; the singular τό ἔργον is used collectively of an aggregate of actions (German dasHandeln), James 1:4; τίνος, the genitive of person and subjunctive, his whole way of feeling and acting, his aims and endeavors: Galatians 6:4; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 22:12; τό ἔργον τοῦ νόμου, the course of action demanded by the law, Romans 2:15.

ἔργα νεκρά, works devoid of that life which has its source in God, works so to speak unwrought, which at the last judgment will fail of the approval of God and of all reward: Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14; ἄκαρπα, Ephesians 5:11 (ἄχρηστα, Wis. 3:11; the wicked man

in Paul's writings ἔργα νόμου, works demanded by and agreeing with the law (cf. Wieseler, commentary iib.



(cherry picking a little....but hey....maybe)

if they are judged according to their works not wrought in and by God,....by what measure will he Judge them if not His Law?

 

[just-me]

Wow. I thought so. Look what hashappened. What's the problem with certain parts of scripture? Arewe really saying that certain parts of the Bible are less important thatothers? What's the beef? Why this dysfunction and the confusing statementsof something that is so easy to understand. Look at Leviticus chapter14:33-57 just for an example, the law of restoration. Can we all agree onthe Spiritual meaning relating the house to our own nature?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

if they are judged according to their works not wrought in and by God,....by what measure will he Judge them if not His Law?

Maybe by the inward law:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

​

IMO man has had GOD's law written in his heart from day 1. The universal realization of this truth awaited the appearance of the new covenant.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I didn't put the weird smiley thing in the Romans verse above...

 

[zone]

Maybe by the inward law:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

​

IMO man has had GOD's law written in his heart from day 1. The universal realization of this truth awaited the appearance of the new covenant.

fair enough.
it's still His Law written on their hearts.
but ya...i'll go with your idea for 5000, HeRoseFromTheDead.

the joy of being gentile!
Our God is a Great God!

 

[know1]

In the recent past, my wife and I have been involved in 2 other threads concerning the arguments of whether or not the law is relevant, or abolished. With the love that the Spirit of God has placed in our hearts, I have to explain my train of thought because of a great concern for God’s children, or those that claim it without foundation. What I’m about ready to present will probably aggravate some of you to the point of claiming my viewpoint is totally non-Christian. Then there will be some who say amen to my train of thought. With tongue in cheek, and because of the love and concern I have for all of you, here goes.

Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth are still here, and so is the law according to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is very disappointing and heart wrenching that proclaiming Christians refute these words.

For those of you who say that the law is abolished, or of no use because of grace, I would like to ask you a series of questions, in light of the fact that all of us know that it’s our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
1.Have you ever studied the law before you received the gift of grace?
2. If not, did you find another way to come to Christ?
3. And if you fall into the category of #2, why did you not let the very tool God has given you to bring you to Christ Jesus?
4. Do you actually feel that by identifying sin, through the law, gives you no escape from it?
5. Is it really true that you can’t see the Spiritual side of the Mosaic Law that Paul saw in Romans chapter 7?

Matthew 5:19 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So those of you who declare the law is abolished, what do you use to bring others to Christ, or do you also tell them that the law makes no difference anymore? If that were the case, where is the truth of Christ that you say you have?
Matthew 5:20 (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 5:45 (KJV)
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

The religious sect of Jesus’ day was Christ’s worst enemy. So what did the Pharisees do that was so wrong? People will say they obeyed the law in the flesh and not in the Spirit. That’s only part of it. Jesus called them on several accounts that they were adding to, and subtracting from the law so they could abide by it perfectly. What a failure on their part, making up their own rules as righteousness! What are we doing, when we deny the law and call it a failure? It failed because of our imperfection, not because God had second thoughts!!! It was never given to achieve righteousness!! It was given so we could see our faults! Therefore, by denying the law, we have no alternative but to make up our own rules according to what is right and wrong. So, by denying the law, what makes us different from a Pharisee?


John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Just because we are believers in Christ Jesus, are we exempt from identifying what God hates, or do we really want to exempt ourselves from guilt? God loves us and wants us to repent daily, and confess daily. Without the law we identify those things according to our standards, and not His. When we identify the law as irrelevant for today, we are telling others there is nothing more in our fleshly life that must be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. I think that train of thought is non-Biblical.

There is much more that I could present. This is just part of what I believe the scripture is telling me and I’m very sure that this post will have responses that are negative, and positive. I will not present anything that I think scripture doesn’t clearly define.

May God’s Word start us walkin’ and the Spirit do the talkin’.

Hello sir. I don't know all the ins and outs concerning this subject, but one thing I cannot do, and that is to ignore scripture just because it contradicts my doctrine. I do my best to form my doctrines around the word of God. I find it interesting that we all read the same book and come up with two almost totally contradictory meanings from it. And truly, for the most part, it appears to be just that. It really is not so easy to see and can be very confusing when you look at both sides of the argument and consider all the scriptures simultaneously, unless you ignore some verses in the bible. Both sides have plausible arguments, so which side is correct? Of course, both sides cannot be true, right? Though it is possible for both to be incorrect, but it is also possible for both to be, in some small way, partly true? There is so much we fail to understand, and I for one fall into the 'fail to understand' category concerning this subject, but I believe there are certain things we simple should not overlook for the sake of believing we are right. We all believe the bible to be the word of God, and that God wrote the bible through man by His Spirit, so it would be silly for us to even think that God would say one thing in some parts of the bible and something contrary in other parts. All scripture must back up scripture, and if it doesn't, then we are the ones who need to change our doctrines/views. I can't say that I have the truth on this matter, because I simply don't know at this time, but I believe it to be closer to the truth than either side of the issue. There are certain things in scripture that I see which are very clear to me, to where I know and understand, though most would not agree. It is very clear that sin brought punishment, curses, and the wrath of God on both the Jews and the heathen alike in the natural world. Hence the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. All the bad things that happened to every nation, including Judah and Israel, and every individual written in the bible, was done so in the natural world due to their sins. When the people of God obeyed His commandments, God blessed them and they prospered in the natural world, that is to say, when they were alive in this world. Sinning or disobedience to God and His covenant, basically brought sicknesses, diseases, famines, destruction, poverty, and the like. Where right living or obedience to the covenant and voice of God wrought blessings or the contrary of disobedience. Both blessings and curses were a direct result of each person's ways, works, or doings. In short, if one listened to and obeyed God and His covenant/commands, that person and those under him or her, were blessed by God in the natural world or if they refused to listen and disobey, that person and those under him or her, were punished in some way, in the natural world.
Hos_4:9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.
Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
1Pe_1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Seeing that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, I would think that the same would apply to us today. Understand again, I am referring to judgement, even against the children of God, in the natural, not to the point of losing our salvation for disobedience, "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." "For there is no respect of persons with God." Heb_10:27 Rom_2:11 Whether they be saved or unsaved, believer or doubter, righteous or unrighteous, and so on. All are judged, IN THE NATURAL, according to their ways, works, and doings. Again, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption [judgement to the flesh]; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Gal 6:7-8
The purpose for repentance from the children of God is for forgiveness so that we may be healed, get delivered, set free, and so on. The curse of the law is judgement against the flesh of the person, equally with the child of God. We are not redeemed from the curse of the law of sin and death until we repent. Hence, the reason for confessing our sins.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The cleansing doesn't come until after we confess, according to this verse.
I have to go for now, I'll continue at another time. Thanks for you post.

 

[crossnote]

Let's see, heroes of the faith (from Heb11) umm, Abel (loved God, and not because Pa was an Adamite), Enoch (would rather walk with God than the world) and then of course Noah (actually believing the warning to vacuate, built a boat). Gee, where was Moses? These were all saved by FAITH! Oh wait, here comes Abram believing promises...being moved to action by faith.

 

[Kerry]

Okay, I got that, but herein lies yet another problem. Though your post was written well, I still fail to see why you are addressing me with this argument, because I agree with it. I believe you read my post but failed to understand it. Thanks.

Well okay then, But you have to understand that from what I have seen on here, is that a lot people are claiming that the cross is insufficient and that man has to add stuff to it to make it perfect. Such as you must be baptised in water, or baptised in the Holy Spirit, Or you must keep the passover and feast of tabernacles. You know they are even blowing the old trumpets that the Israelites would blow at the feast of trumpets. Like it some trump card on Christ and Him Crucified. Jesus said "it is finished" there is nothing else. The veil was torn into. There is no work that we can do. Nothing we do will be accepted by God. He only looks for the blood and then He will passover us. Jesus is my righteousness, Jesus is my sanctification, Jesus is my Justification. By the faith I was Given from Him and by His Grace and nothing of myself, lest I should Boast, I can only boast in Jesus christ. Now with that said, I strive to live according to his word, but I must rely on Him to do so, Therefore again I cannot boast, because it not me, but rather Him in me and all praise and glory goes to Him. AMEN and AMEN.

 

[vic1980]

Wow. I thought so. Look what hashappened. What's the problem with certain parts of scripture? Arewe really saying that certain parts of the Bible are less important thatothers? What's the beef? Why this dysfunction and the confusing statementsof something that is so easy to understand. Look at Leviticus chapter14:33-57 just for an example, the law of restoration. Can we all agree onthe Spiritual meaning relating the house to our own nature?

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

GS NT 3545: νομίμως

νομίμως, adverb (νόμιμος), lawfully, agreeably to the law, properly:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, For instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


God bless you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and savior

 

[homwardbound]

In the recent past, my wife and I have been involved in 2 other threads concerning the arguments of whether or not the law is relevant, or abolished. With the love that the Spirit of God has placed in our hearts, I have to explain my train of thought because of a great concern for God’s children, or those that claim it without foundation. What I’m about ready to present will probably aggravate some of you to the point of claiming my viewpoint is totally non-Christian. Then there will be some who say amen to my train of thought. With tongue in cheek, and because of the love and concern I have for all of you, here goes.

Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth are still here, and so is the law according to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is very disappointing and heart wrenching that proclaiming Christians refute these words.

For those of you who say that the law is abolished, or of no use because of grace, I would like to ask you a series of questions, in light of the fact that all of us know that it’s our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
1.Have you ever studied the law before you received the gift of grace?
2. If not, did you find another way to come to Christ?
3. And if you fall into the category of #2, why did you not let the very tool God has given you to bring you to Christ Jesus?
4. Do you actually feel that by identifying sin, through the law, gives you no escape from it?
5. Is it really true that you can’t see the Spiritual side of the Mosaic Law that Paul saw in Romans chapter 7?

Matthew 5:19 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So those of you who declare the law is abolished, what do you use to bring others to Christ, or do you also tell them that the law makes no difference anymore? If that were the case, where is the truth of Christ that you say you have?
Matthew 5:20 (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 5:45 (KJV)
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

The religious sect of Jesus’ day was Christ’s worst enemy. So what did the Pharisees do that was so wrong? People will say they obeyed the law in the flesh and not in the Spirit. That’s only part of it. Jesus called them on several accounts that they were adding to, and subtracting from the law so they could abide by it perfectly. What a failure on their part, making up their own rules as righteousness! What are we doing, when we deny the law and call it a failure? It failed because of our imperfection, not because God had second thoughts!!! It was never given to achieve righteousness!! It was given so we could see our faults! Therefore, by denying the law, we have no alternative but to make up our own rules according to what is right and wrong. So, by denying the law, what makes us different from a Pharisee?


John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Just because we are believers in Christ Jesus, are we exempt from identifying what God hates, or do we really want to exempt ourselves from guilt? God loves us and wants us to repent daily, and confess daily. Without the law we identify those things according to our standards, and not His. When we identify the law as irrelevant for today, we are telling others there is nothing more in our fleshly life that must be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. I think that train of thought is non-Biblical.

There is much more that I could present. This is just part of what I believe the scripture is telling me and I’m very sure that this post will have responses that are negative, and positive. I will not present anything that I think scripture doesn’t clearly define.

May God’s Word start us walkin’ and the Spirit do the talkin’.

Brother, there is before the cross and after two sides, and the Gentiles were never given the Law although it is useful and does bring one to Christ, yet this is how I came to Christ without works of the law
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Now once the Law has done it's job, which was put in place for the first Chosen, then the Law is filled after one receives Christ as their finished work, him that has done it all for the ones that believe he died for all gave 100% forgiveness to them, then they receive the new life that they are called no longer of or in the flesh that they were in. now in the Spirit of God by God, through the resurrected Christ. And this is there because:

1. John 4:23
   But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
   
2. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
   
   One cannot see the kingdom of Heaven nor enter it without being born again by God through the finished work of the cross.
   Not arguing with you, just pointing out what God has done, and for us that believe to cross over to this side of the cross.
   Where we love because God:
   1 John 4:19 We love each other because he loved us first.
   
   And we forgive because we are forgiven
   Where as before the cross the Law was still in place and is for all that are still on that side of the picket line where we forgive to get forgiven ad we love to be loved
   There is a big difference, hoping for you cross over and see as King David did and Job did before the cross ever came to be in effect today as it is
   Job 19:25 “But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and he will stand upon the earth at last.
   Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving; go into his courts with praise. Give thanks to him and praise his name.
   
   It is good to want and desire to obey the Law, and one is on their way to the truth, that does not take advantage of God or Law, rather upholds the truth of that Law is Spiritual and I am carnal, and flesh and blood is weak and can't do the Law perfectly ever.
   Kind of like trying to hold Ten Apples under water at the same time using just one's hands. It is impossible for man to enter Heaven by any of his own works, only by the finished work of Christ does man get a new life in the Spirit of God and this is not received by the death rather the life
   Colossians 1:20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
   Results
   • Romans 5:10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.
     Ephesians 2:5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
     
   
   
   
   
   

 

[homwardbound]

Wow. I thought so. Look what hashappened. What's the problem with certain parts of scripture? Arewe really saying that certain parts of the Bible are less important thatothers? What's the beef? Why this dysfunction and the confusing statementsof something that is so easy to understand. Look at Leviticus chapter14:33-57 just for an example, the law of restoration. Can we all agree onthe Spiritual meaning relating the house to our own nature?

only in ones new heart transplant by God through the resurrection of Christ, where we serve God in Spirit and truth being the only way today that God can be served
Ephesians 2:5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

 

[homwardbound]

Hello sir. I don't know all the ins and outs concerning this subject, but one thing I cannot do, and that is to ignore scripture just because it contradicts my doctrine. I do my best to form my doctrines around the word of God. I find it interesting that we all read the same book and come up with two almost totally contradictory meanings from it. And truly, for the most part, it appears to be just that. It really is not so easy to see and can be very confusing when you look at both sides of the argument and consider all the scriptures simultaneously, unless you ignore some verses in the bible. Both sides have plausible arguments, so which side is correct? Of course, both sides cannot be true, right? Though it is possible for both to be incorrect, but it is also possible for both to be, in some small way, partly true? There is so much we fail to understand, and I for one fall into the 'fail to understand' category concerning this subject, but I believe there are certain things we simple should not overlook for the sake of believing we are right. We all believe the bible to be the word of God, and that God wrote the bible through man by His Spirit, so it would be silly for us to even think that God would say one thing in some parts of the bible and something contrary in other parts. All scripture must back up scripture, and if it doesn't, then we are the ones who need to change our doctrines/views. I can't say that I have the truth on this matter, because I simply don't know at this time, but I believe it to be closer to the truth than either side of the issue. There are certain things in scripture that I see which are very clear to me, to where I know and understand, though most would not agree. It is very clear that sin brought punishment, curses, and the wrath of God on both the Jews and the heathen alike in the natural world. Hence the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. All the bad things that happened to every nation, including Judah and Israel, and every individual written in the bible, was done so in the natural world due to their sins. When the people of God obeyed His commandments, God blessed them and they prospered in the natural world, that is to say, when they were alive in this world. Sinning or disobedience to God and His covenant, basically brought sicknesses, diseases, famines, destruction, poverty, and the like. Where right living or obedience to the covenant and voice of God wrought blessings or the contrary of disobedience. Both blessings and curses were a direct result of each person's ways, works, or doings. In short, if one listened to and obeyed God and His covenant/commands, that person and those under him or her, were blessed by God in the natural world or if they refused to listen and disobey, that person and those under him or her, were punished in some way, in the natural world.
Hos_4:9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.
Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
1Pe_1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Seeing that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, I would think that the same would apply to us today. Understand again, I am referring to judgement, even against the children of God, in the natural, not to the point of losing our salvation for disobedience, "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." "For there is no respect of persons with God." Heb_10:27 Rom_2:11 Whether they be saved or unsaved, believer or doubter, righteous or unrighteous, and so on. All are judged, IN THE NATURAL, according to their ways, works, and doings. Again, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption [judgement to the flesh]; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Gal 6:7-8
The purpose for repentance from the children of God is for forgiveness so that we may be healed, get delivered, set free, and so on. The curse of the law is judgement against the flesh of the person, equally with the child of God. We are not redeemed from the curse of the law of sin and death until we repent. Hence, the reason for confessing our sins.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The cleansing doesn't come until after we confess, according to this verse.
I have to go for now, I'll continue at another time. Thanks for you post.

and this cleansing is done once and for all, after the reception of being forgiven and admit we were born with a sin nature and that Christ di appear in the flesh, there is nowhere written after this reception to repent over and over again to God for forgiveness, after the cross.

 

[homwardbound]

Well okay then, But you have to understand that from what I have seen on here, is that a lot people are claiming that the cross is insufficient and that man has to add stuff to it to make it perfect. Such as you must be baptised in water, or baptised in the Holy Spirit, Or you must keep the passover and feast of tabernacles. You know they are even blowing the old trumpets that the Israelites would blow at the feast of trumpets. Like it some trump card on Christ and Him Crucified. Jesus said "it is finished" there is nothing else. The veil was torn into. There is no work that we can do. Nothing we do will be accepted by God. He only looks for the blood and then He will passover us. Jesus is my righteousness, Jesus is my sanctification, Jesus is my Justification. By the faith I was Given from Him and by His Grace and nothing of myself, lest I should Boast, I can only boast in Jesus christ. Now with that said, I strive to live according to his word, but I must rely on Him to do so, Therefore again I cannot boast, because it not me, but rather Him in me and all praise and glory goes to Him. AMEN and AMEN.

Yes it is God that gives the gift of the Holy Ghost on the very first of belief, one is born again by God. If one believes that God took away the sin of the world at the death of Son, then Son was raised back to life by God the Father to give us what we all are in need of after born into this world, we are first born of the flesh and in the flesh, then Boprn again by God a free gift from God to all that believe God. As Christ said in John 19:30 "it is finished"
We are now under and in a new covenant

 

[know1]

Well okay then, But you have to understand that from what I have seen on here, is that a lot people are claiming that the cross is insufficient and that man has to add stuff to it to make it perfect. Such as you must be baptised in water, or baptised in the Holy Spirit, Or you must keep the passover and feast of tabernacles. You know they are even blowing the old trumpets that the Israelites would blow at the feast of trumpets. Like it some trump card on Christ and Him Crucified. Jesus said "it is finished" there is nothing else. The veil was torn into. There is no work that we can do. Nothing we do will be accepted by God. He only looks for the blood and then He will passover us. Jesus is my righteousness, Jesus is my sanctification, Jesus is my Justification. By the faith I was Given from Him and by His Grace and nothing of myself, lest I should Boast, I can only boast in Jesus christ. Now with that said, I strive to live according to his word, but I must rely on Him to do so, Therefore again I cannot boast, because it not me, but rather Him in me and all praise and glory goes to Him. AMEN and AMEN.

One thing that I have come to understand, is that I can't make people understand. I don't find many people open enough to receive, what might be, the truth. Giving people eyes that they might see and ears that they might hear is God's job, seeing that scripture is spiritually discerned anyway. Without God revealing the truth to the individual, they will neither perceive nor understand. So we are to pray for them in love and for our selves as well.
Another thing I have come to understand is that most people are stupid, (and yes, I mean that in the negative sense) and not to underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers and in high offices.
I also understand what you are saying about adding to scripture to make it the 'whole truth', as I too have come across the same thing on this forum.
I believe that if you add to scripture to make it the whole truth of God, then you just negated the word of God, rendering it useless or powerless and making it a lie. To me a partial truth is the same as a lie. If I can't be born again with Romans 10:9-10, then God's word is a lie.
Jesus said, I am that I am, because He is our everything. He is our righteousness, sanctification, and justification, as well as our holiness, healer, deliverer, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, faith, our exceeding great reward, our strength, fortress, high tower, the way, the truth, the life, the word, the love, and the light of the Father...etc. Like I said, He IS our everything. There is no boasting on our part, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[know1]

and this cleansing is done once and for all, after the reception of being forgiven and admit we were born with a sin nature and that Christ di appear in the flesh, there is nowhere written after this reception to repent over and over again to God for forgiveness, after the cross.

Faith in Jesus and the works of the law are two completely different things. One is for right living down here, the other is for salvation.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Here is the proof. This was written to christian believers, not the unbelieving sinners. Confession is for the purpose of repenting. Again, we cannot ignore scripture to satisfy our doctrines.

 

[homwardbound]

One thing that I have come to understand, is that I can't make people understand. I don't find many people open enough to receive, what might be, the truth. Giving people eyes that they might see and ears that they might hear is God's job, seeing that scripture is spiritually discerned anyway. Without God revealing the truth to the individual, they will neither perceive nor understand. So we are to pray for them in love and for our selves as well.
Another thing I have come to understand is that most people are stupid, (and yes, I mean that in the negative sense) and not to underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers and in high offices.
I also understand what you are saying about adding to scripture to make it the 'whole truth', as I too have come across the same thing on this forum.
I believe that if you add to scripture to make it the whole truth of God, then you just negated the word of God, rendering it useless or powerless and making it a lie. To me a partial truth is the same as a lie. If I can't be born again with Romans 10:9-10, then God's word is a lie.
Jesus said, I am that I am, because He is our everything. He is our righteousness, sanctification, and justification, as well as our holiness, healer, deliverer, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, faith, our exceeding great reward, our strength, fortress, high tower, the way, the truth, the life, the word, the love, and the light of the Father...etc. Like I said, He IS our everything. There is no boasting on our part, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Thanks Know1

in a pure glass of water all it takes is one drop of ink to taint it. So anyone out for their own gain for here and now has tainted the water the pure water from Christ to the woman at the well where he said if you drink of God's water you will never thirst again. Amazing YES?
The gift is free and had nothing to do with anyone being good enough, besides Christ, the way, the truth and the life given to us by the resurrection of by the operation of God the Father, and does the same for all that believe, Father gives them new life as well. Just saying one believes is not it though, exercising that belief does bring home the truth.
For even the Demons believe and yet do not exercise it. For the whole world knows God is real and that what God did at the cross was and is for to bring life to those that believe and exercise that belief to know God and God gives Mercy to those that have true motive in knowing God.
This is what I see God looking for in us is:

"Comfort God by letting God know that you would see God just to dwell in God's Presence. Not for teaching, not for material gain, not even for a message, but for God. The longing of the human heart to be loved for itself is something caught from the Great Divine Heart."

 

[homwardbound]

Faith in Jesus and the works of the law are two completely different things. One is for right living down here, the other is for salvation.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Here is the proof. This was written to christian believers, not the unbelieving sinners. Confession is for the purpose of repenting. Again, we cannot ignore scripture to satisfy our doctrines.

Please go to 1John 1:1 onward and read in context this was a letter written to a pastor that had written a letter to John on the island of Patmos. This Pastor had Gnostics in his gathering that were spreading around that Christ did not come in the flesh and that all flesh is sin, and that is why he could not have come in the flesh, Secondly because they did not believe Christ came in the flesh because all sin is of the flesh, that since they believe in Christ they have redeemed bodies, and no sin nature.

That is what John wrote about, and that if one would confess that they do have unredeemed flesh then they receive the forgiveness provided at the cross, now they also needed to see that Christ did actually come in the flesh, otherwise why would John have started out with
[h=3]1 John 1:1-6[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]The Incarnation of the Word of Life[/h]1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. [SUP]3 [/SUP]We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We write this to make our joy complete


[h=3]1 John 1:7-10[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]7[/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
[SUP]8[/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9[/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.




Okay I have past tense confessed that I was born first of the flesh with a nature to sin and have sinned, not ever wanting to sin anymore, and I believe that Christ came in the flesh, physical flesh, that was and is perfect, the only perfect flesh, after the first Adam, being the second Adam.
Now that I have confessed and believe God, have now received that forgiveness that purifies one from all sin by God miraculous work at the cross. Where does it say to do this over and over. When God said he died once and for all for the forgiveness of sins.
And all through the second Testament, (new) the disciples proclaim reconciliation, redemption, forgiveness through Christ's blood, it is a done issue, that there is no more forgiveness to be executed from God on God's part to mankind
And there is no forgiveness with out the shedding of Blood.
So let us see a few verses that say we are forgiven, redeemed (not in the flesh) in the Spirit of God, reconciled and so forth
Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors

Okay that is just a few of many, and please see this what you have been taught to believe about getting forgiveness over and over and is keeping you on a guilt trip about 1 John 1:9 is a lie and you are not seeing this as a man sows (thinks) that he shall perform. Ones emotions predictably respond to whatever one is think about, Emotion knows no right or wrong, it just responds.
So whenever I thought about stopping a sin consciously, I ended up doing that sin.
Now when I gave up trying and consciously started trusting God that god had already taken that and all sin away back at the cross, then I was and am walking in the Spirit of God where sin is impossible to occur.

Praying God shows this, his truth to you that sets you free

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

This advocate (Jesus Christ) makes constant intercession for us as we are growing up in maturity of the Lord
Believe, see, receive truth. No more riding the fence or being tossed to and fro like a wave in the sea