timothy 2 12 instruct
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i had a woman teach me things about the bible that i didn't know and i found no fault with it, but she wasn't instructing me or had authority over me, if a woman has knowledge and a man desires to know what she knows then how can that be wrong, so u see it cannot be teach but instruct for that would be in error
Hmm interesting..eve should have just kept silent when the serpent asked her that question hath God said and let Adam answer? Cos it was .adam that heard God speak first commading about the trees even before Eve was formed.
I cant really see that she taught him anything or was usurping his authority but maybe it was in answering the serpent because God later punished Adam for listening or hearkening to Eve instead of Him. I supoose Adam could have said excuse me mr Serpent you have no right to talk to MY WIFE and cast doubts in her mind....
Dont know sorry I dont like to say a word in the bible is wrong or mistranslated but just trying to understand what Paul really meant in that passage. I mean when he says women shall be saved in childbearing, it kind of presumes that these women hes talking about are wives of the men in question. Also he writes about bishops and deacons, that they be husbands of one wife. To be in subjection...under his rule?
Remember Timothy was a young (unmarried?) preacher. He was told to flee youthful lusts. He might have had a lot of young women try and usurp his authority or even go after him? He's even warned about younger widows. See chapter 5:11-14 However both Timothys mother and grandmother had faith and may actually hav taught him scripture see 2 timothy 1:5 and 3:14-17
Timothy being encouraged to teach with Christs authority by Paul. Certainly a lot of false teachers around, and maybe he thought women were more susceptible to satan or he just wanted a bit of order to church. I mean certainly us women know that its a mans world and like it or not, they come first.
I cant really see that she taught him anything or was usurping his authority but maybe it was in answering the serpent because God later punished Adam for listening or hearkening to Eve instead of Him. I supoose Adam could have said excuse me mr Serpent you have no right to talk to MY WIFE and cast doubts in her mind....
Dont know sorry I dont like to say a word in the bible is wrong or mistranslated but just trying to understand what Paul really meant in that passage. I mean when he says women shall be saved in childbearing, it kind of presumes that these women hes talking about are wives of the men in question. Also he writes about bishops and deacons, that they be husbands of one wife. To be in subjection...under his rule?
Remember Timothy was a young (unmarried?) preacher. He was told to flee youthful lusts. He might have had a lot of young women try and usurp his authority or even go after him? He's even warned about younger widows. See chapter 5:11-14 However both Timothys mother and grandmother had faith and may actually hav taught him scripture see 2 timothy 1:5 and 3:14-17
Timothy being encouraged to teach with Christs authority by Paul. Certainly a lot of false teachers around, and maybe he thought women were more susceptible to satan or he just wanted a bit of order to church. I mean certainly us women know that its a mans world and like it or not, they come first.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
The authority structure of God on earth as applied to His Church, which angels are the last in that authority structure, for the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels.
The world has an authority structure concerning military, government, school system, and so forth so things run smooth without fighting over who is in charge, and so does God.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
When a person receives the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them, for they display the ways of God on earth, and belong to that kingdom.
In heaven the saints do not marry for their is no gender between them, but they are equal being a soul in a glorified body.
Therefore in the kingdom of God, in the Lord, while on earth, a male and a female are equal, and a female can consider herself equal to a male, even the preacher.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
When the saints gather together to worship God, and hear the word of God, then it should be a man to take the lead, per the authority structure of God on earth, and when he has the floor he is in charge, so do not speak, and interrupt him, and this also includes the men.
A woman cannot usurp authority over a man, but she can consider herself equal to him, but when the preacher has the floor, and a woman speaks she is usurping authority above him by taking away his authority to whoever she is talking to, when he is in charge, unless the preacher tells her to speak.
But the men and the women are equal when the saints gather together, but it should be a man to lead the congregation.
But a woman can teach a man like at her house, and on the street, and even in Church as long as she is not among the congregation when the preacher has the floor, and the preacher might even want to hear her matter on something when he is not in charge anymore of the congregation after they disassemble.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
God gives to all saints equally concerning the truth of His word, and does not give the preacher more understanding of the word of God than a common pew sitter, which any saint can understand as much as the preacher, and maybe more if they study diligently, or in an area he has not studied as much, including both men and women.
Women can speak in Church, for shall they not sing unto the Lord, and give testimonies.
The preacher, a man, is in charge, and has the floor when he is speaking, and all people should be quiet including the men, and when he is done leading, and gives the service over to the saints, then the saints collectively can add to the service sharing their knowledge, their prophesy, tongues, which include both men and women, for they are equal in the Lord, and the preacher is not in charge for he gave it to the saints to add to the service, for many participating in the service is better than one man that is the only one participating, for collectively they can come to a better understanding, and be better edified.
Maybe they had a problem at that one Church of interrupting the service when the preacher was at home, and to ask her husband when he gets home if she has any questions, but that might not mean he can answer her, or he knows more than her, but she does not know, and if he does not know they can figure it out together.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
The authority structure of God on earth as applied to His Church, which angels are the last in that authority structure, for the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels.
The world has an authority structure concerning military, government, school system, and so forth so things run smooth without fighting over who is in charge, and so does God.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
When a person receives the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them, for they display the ways of God on earth, and belong to that kingdom.
In heaven the saints do not marry for their is no gender between them, but they are equal being a soul in a glorified body.
Therefore in the kingdom of God, in the Lord, while on earth, a male and a female are equal, and a female can consider herself equal to a male, even the preacher.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
When the saints gather together to worship God, and hear the word of God, then it should be a man to take the lead, per the authority structure of God on earth, and when he has the floor he is in charge, so do not speak, and interrupt him, and this also includes the men.
A woman cannot usurp authority over a man, but she can consider herself equal to him, but when the preacher has the floor, and a woman speaks she is usurping authority above him by taking away his authority to whoever she is talking to, when he is in charge, unless the preacher tells her to speak.
But the men and the women are equal when the saints gather together, but it should be a man to lead the congregation.
But a woman can teach a man like at her house, and on the street, and even in Church as long as she is not among the congregation when the preacher has the floor, and the preacher might even want to hear her matter on something when he is not in charge anymore of the congregation after they disassemble.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
God gives to all saints equally concerning the truth of His word, and does not give the preacher more understanding of the word of God than a common pew sitter, which any saint can understand as much as the preacher, and maybe more if they study diligently, or in an area he has not studied as much, including both men and women.
Women can speak in Church, for shall they not sing unto the Lord, and give testimonies.
The preacher, a man, is in charge, and has the floor when he is speaking, and all people should be quiet including the men, and when he is done leading, and gives the service over to the saints, then the saints collectively can add to the service sharing their knowledge, their prophesy, tongues, which include both men and women, for they are equal in the Lord, and the preacher is not in charge for he gave it to the saints to add to the service, for many participating in the service is better than one man that is the only one participating, for collectively they can come to a better understanding, and be better edified.
Maybe they had a problem at that one Church of interrupting the service when the preacher was at home, and to ask her husband when he gets home if she has any questions, but that might not mean he can answer her, or he knows more than her, but she does not know, and if he does not know they can figure it out together.
men and women learn things from each other all the time, so its the natural order of things, i do not just go on what the bible says but my heart and the natural order of things. i see no reason why women cant teach men and i have been taught by many, but translation errors have been known to happen and it u read something that does not quite add up in the bible then it could be that, they also at times confuse sin with folly and they do not mean the same thing, this is often see in Job, Job did not sin but his folly was to speak without knowledge
What about the sermon and authority she is given, to be an good women and say and live and teach the sermon the Lord has given her to speak. As a man I cannot do this with the abilities a woman can.
I suppose Moses was given one work to do and Noah another and Moses is somehow convinced that because he is surrounded in Scripture by the parting of the red sea it is somehow inferior to the deluge.
An man and a women are different for a propose there is no shame in taking the authority given by God and performing the duties of it in the house of God,they both go hand in hand.
I suppose Moses was given one work to do and Noah another and Moses is somehow convinced that because he is surrounded in Scripture by the parting of the red sea it is somehow inferior to the deluge.
An man and a women are different for a propose there is no shame in taking the authority given by God and performing the duties of it in the house of God,they both go hand in hand.
Did you look up the greek..? What does the original say?
To me it would seem makes more sense if Paul wrote I dont suffer a woman to speak. Cos both times he's talking about women being silent.
Also corintihians hes saying its a shame for women to speak in church and they should ask their husbands at home. He also says they under obedience of the law (what law is this...is it in the OT? Is it a rule of marriage? Maybe the vow to 'obey? ' I dont know...I have never married so am not sure about this!)
Cos in letter to Titus hes saying the aged women ought to be teachers of good things...and teach younger women see Titus 2:3-4
May he meant unbeleving women in the corinthian church and with Timothy at the time. Perhaps. Or maybe its just women were really noisy and constantly interrupting. Who knows?
2 John seems especially to be a letter John wrote to a single lady, maybe a widow and her children. He tells her not to receive anyone into her house who does not believe Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. If she does, or even wishes him God speed, she partakes in his. evil deeds. These people are deceivers....
Now I dont know why this is, would you think this lady could speak to anyome that doesnt bring the doctrine of Christ to her house? Maybe she could teach this person the error of his ways? But no John writes to tell her not to recieve him or wish him God speed. Interesting...
Compare 2 timothy 3:6 and verse 13 too.
I mean certainly its no good for a godly woman to entertain anyone trying to deceive her, or even to speak with a conman. Why is this so...well, how many men do you know that are con artists trying to seduce women but how many women do you know are doing the same women seem to fall for men but most men arent likely to fall for women unless they are actually paying her and are actually well aware of what they are getting into. See Jezebel and Ahab dynamic...Ahab actually didnt really want to obey God thats why he married ungodly baal worshipper Jezebel. Then Jezebel could do anything she liked with Ahab cos he willingly consented to her rule.
This sort of speaks of the treachery of ungodly women and men but also the innocence of godly women, and if they are married their willing obedience and honring their godly husbands this is something God wants to protect.
To me it would seem makes more sense if Paul wrote I dont suffer a woman to speak. Cos both times he's talking about women being silent.
Also corintihians hes saying its a shame for women to speak in church and they should ask their husbands at home. He also says they under obedience of the law (what law is this...is it in the OT? Is it a rule of marriage? Maybe the vow to 'obey? ' I dont know...I have never married so am not sure about this!)
Cos in letter to Titus hes saying the aged women ought to be teachers of good things...and teach younger women see Titus 2:3-4
May he meant unbeleving women in the corinthian church and with Timothy at the time. Perhaps. Or maybe its just women were really noisy and constantly interrupting. Who knows?
2 John seems especially to be a letter John wrote to a single lady, maybe a widow and her children. He tells her not to receive anyone into her house who does not believe Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. If she does, or even wishes him God speed, she partakes in his. evil deeds. These people are deceivers....
Now I dont know why this is, would you think this lady could speak to anyome that doesnt bring the doctrine of Christ to her house? Maybe she could teach this person the error of his ways? But no John writes to tell her not to recieve him or wish him God speed. Interesting...
Compare 2 timothy 3:6 and verse 13 too.
I mean certainly its no good for a godly woman to entertain anyone trying to deceive her, or even to speak with a conman. Why is this so...well, how many men do you know that are con artists trying to seduce women but how many women do you know are doing the same women seem to fall for men but most men arent likely to fall for women unless they are actually paying her and are actually well aware of what they are getting into. See Jezebel and Ahab dynamic...Ahab actually didnt really want to obey God thats why he married ungodly baal worshipper Jezebel. Then Jezebel could do anything she liked with Ahab cos he willingly consented to her rule.
This sort of speaks of the treachery of ungodly women and men but also the innocence of godly women, and if they are married their willing obedience and honring their godly husbands this is something God wants to protect.
like u point about con artists, and no i do not know the greek and if anyone does it would be good to clarify, but i see no reason why a husband cannot learn from his wife and he should do so, timothy is about a woman dominating a man, but a man shouldn't dominate a woman either, they should be partners with mutual respect for one another, and i just find instruct fits better then teach within the context
L
There is no debate here. The scriptures are clear. The letters to Timothy are clearly instructions about the order of things. He don't suffer a woman to teach; that is hold a position as teacher in full context as a teacher of men. The full sentence continues; to exercise authority over men. Some translations say usurp.
So what then is the context? Teachers are in a position of authority as such, over students. Granted in America the Sunday school teacher or Bible study teacher has no such authority. Sadly because in biblical times your teacher was also responsible for your spiritual training, and we have no training or instruction in Bible study anymore, and the spiritual condition of the church suffers.
Back on subject
So in context she can't sit as teacher over men, this does not mean that if she is a diligent study and has learned something the others have not yet that she can't share with anyone or everyone, it just means that the authority of the position teacher can not be hers to have over the men, and that the teacher should hear what she has to share to insure it is correct in doctrine before she shares.
There are however many aspects in which she is instructed or teach. Old women teach young women for example, and to teach children as well.
Rightly dividing the word is important, the whole word in context.
So what then is the context? Teachers are in a position of authority as such, over students. Granted in America the Sunday school teacher or Bible study teacher has no such authority. Sadly because in biblical times your teacher was also responsible for your spiritual training, and we have no training or instruction in Bible study anymore, and the spiritual condition of the church suffers.
Back on subject
So in context she can't sit as teacher over men, this does not mean that if she is a diligent study and has learned something the others have not yet that she can't share with anyone or everyone, it just means that the authority of the position teacher can not be hers to have over the men, and that the teacher should hear what she has to share to insure it is correct in doctrine before she shares.
There are however many aspects in which she is instructed or teach. Old women teach young women for example, and to teach children as well.
Rightly dividing the word is important, the whole word in context.