To the Godless American Church...

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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Oh so you believe the USA is more ungodly not because of any evidence, but it fits your end-time doctrine...come on!
There's plenty of evidence. I work regularly with Veterans of the USA and they'd probably like to sit you down for a bit and school you on a thing or two in relation to what has really been behind our involvement in different wars and how the Media totally misrepresents, deliberately, a lot of what is really going on. There's also the so-called "gospel" which we've exported all over the world which is oftentimes anything but the gospel. There's also the aforementioned "beast" or kingdom of Revelation to consider. Looked like a Lamb (professed to be a Christian nation), but actually spoke like a dragon (was really Satanic). And so on and so on.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Anyways, I am done with is conversation. One of the reasons why I do not frequent this site as much as I once did is that fact that so many here are simply looking for a reason to squabble and argue over the same tired old subjects year after year.

Most are here to push or defend their personal, doctrinal, & denomintional beliefs.
Few are here to truly seek the heart of God. There is very little desire for the presence of God and spiritual growth. That is evident by their argumentative nature. That is also a sad fact. :(
Lets see... let me start a thread where I insult and accuse a whole nation of believers of being ungodly and then get upset when they don't agree.... Then make a few more insults and accusations as I leave, because others are not as spiritual as I am.... LOL Get the log out of your own eye, then you can help others.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
There's plenty of evidence. I work regularly with Veterans of the USA and they'd probably like to sit you down for a bit and school you on a thing or two in relation to what has really been behind our involvement in different wars and how the Media totally misrepresents, deliberately, a lot of what is really going on. There's also the so-called "gospel" which we've exported all over the world which is oftentimes anything but the gospel. There's also the aforementioned "beast" or kingdom of Revelation to consider. Looked like a Lamb (professed to be a Christian nation), but actually spoke like a dragon (was really Satanic). And so on and so on.
My friend ..I am a decorated veteran of the Gulf war. If your going into the conspiracy stuff...our conversation is over.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
And the flesh is merely flesh and nothing more. Again, Paul was referring to a fleshly circumcision which avails nothing.
No..read your bible...sin dwells in the flesh...and we all have sin in the flesh
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
My friend ..I am a decorated veteran of the Gulf war. If your going into the conspiracy stuff...our conversation is over.
Who said anything about conspiracy stuff...and I'm talking about a lot more wars than just the Gulf War (WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc.).
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
No..read your bible...sin dwells in the flesh...and we all have sin in the flesh
I've read my Bible prayerfully from cover to cover for the last 27 years. Again, whether you like it or not, Paul regularly used the words "flesh", "law", "circumcision" and "bondage" interchangeably because anyone with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is not going to be able to keep any sort of spiritual law or obey any sort of Spirit God and they will instead be in bondage to sin. As such, you, my friend, ought to reread your own Bible prayerfully. Sin only abides in the flesh or in the bodies of those who willfully yield their members to the same and Christians were instructed by this same Paul to not do the same.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Who said anything about conspiracy stuff...and I'm talking about a lot more wars than just the Gulf War (WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc.).
Ok...I see where this is going. Do you believe in lizard people?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I've read my Bible prayerfully from cover to cover for the last 27 years. Again, whether you like it or not, Paul regularly used the words "flesh", "law", "circumcision" and "bondage" interchangeably because anyone with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is not going to be able to keep any sort of spiritual law or obey any sort of Spirit God and they will instead be in bondage to sin. As such, you, my friend, ought to reread your own Bible prayerfully. Sin only abides in the flesh or in the bodies of those who willfully yield their members to the same and Christians were instructed by this same Paul to not do the same.
Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (fleshly)
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Ok...I see where this is going. Do you believe in lizard people?
That's your grown up response? I've spoken to many Christians, including at least one pastor, who have gone so far as to weep before me as they related to me some of the horrors of war...and how the Media misrepresented the same. One pastor recently wept before me as he recounted how he and other Marines went in and wiped out an entire village in retaliation for a soldier who had been killed. Women, children and all. I actually had to console him and speak to him about how the blood of Christ can purge his conscience if he's truly repented of what he did. I could give hundreds of other examples, but why bother if you're just going to respond childishly.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
I've read my Bible prayerfully from cover to cover for the last 27 years. Again, whether you like it or not, Paul regularly used the words "flesh", "law", "circumcision" and "bondage" interchangeably because anyone with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is not going to be able to keep any sort of spiritual law or obey any sort of Spirit God and they will instead be in bondage to sin. As such, you, my friend, ought to reread your own Bible prayerfully. Sin only abides in the flesh or in the bodies of those who willfully yield their members to the same and Christians were instructed by this same Paul to not do the same.
I could very possibly agree with that statement, yet I don't see why you seem to be saying that Christians don't have the flesh to deal with, or I could better say, the flesh to keep dead and crucified with Christ.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
That's your grown up response? I've spoken to many Christians, including at least one pastor, who have gone so far as to weep before me as they related to me some of the horrors of war...and how the Media misrepresented the same. One pastor recently wept before me as he recounted how he and other Marines went in and wiped out an entire village in retaliation for a soldier who had been killed. Women, children and all. I actually had to console him and speak to him about how the blood of Christ can purge his conscience if he's truly repented of what he did. I could give hundreds of other examples, but why bother if you're just going to respond childishly.
So how does this reflect on the American church? and again related to any other nation or military...ours is clearly more moral.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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While I'm not for/against either side here, I understand that most good soldiers don't know the full extent or purpose of what they're fighting for. When black ops go on a mission, they're not briefed on "reasons" of the mission. They're usually told it's a mission against enemy combatants & that it's top secret. Do as you're told, ask no questions.

Now about those lizard people...... lol. Now why, would anyone believe ANYTHING about lizard people? That's the point..... they won't..... ever. It's very easy to go to a conspiracy site, copy their basic content, & then mix in some lizard people reports. & viola! Totally bogus conspiracy info.

This process has a name attached to it..... disinformation. Because of it NOTHING about the subject is believable. One only has to look up the subject in world history to find that it's EVERYWHERE.

Now, if such a thing was used in our nation's history as far back as the American Revolution, WHY can't we consider the possibility that it's being used today? Can anyone say 'CIA black ops'?
 
Dec 1, 2014
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Guess what...centuries before America existed...the BIBLE makes clear what is going to happen in the END TIMES..Armageddon, a vast 'falling away', and hundreds of prophecies....which has absolutely NOTHING to do with American churches...in fact...the rise of the Anti-Christ has NOTHING to do with any 'church" in any country. Satan's sentence was pronounced in the book of Genesis and his casting down into the Lake of Fire, again, has NOTHING to do with American churches.it's all part of how the book of Revelation takes up where Genesis leaves off....GOD will have communion with His own! Why are you jumping on American churches, when you could so easily blame all mankind for their sinful ways, or politics, or governments...or just the fact that we live in the aftermath of SIN. Most readers of your post will think the same thing...Blah, blah, blah.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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I am no expert on the subject, since I only attend my church, but it would seem to me a lot of churches are not walking closely with the Lord, or at least, their leaders aren't.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (fleshly)
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Now, let's read it in context:

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1)

Paul was speaking to those who knew the law and about how the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives.

"For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Romans 7:2-4)

In the same manner in which a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives and she is only free to be married to another if her husband is dead, saints who were once bound to the law are now dead to the law by the body of Christ and they are now married to Christ that they might bring forth fruit unto God. IOW, in the same manner in which a woman is under the dominion of her husband as long as he lives, a person is under the dominion of the law of sin and death as long as it lives. It is not until the law is dealt with by the body of Christ that such a dominion ceases.

"FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Romans 7:5)

FOR WHEN WE WERE, past tense, IN THE FLESH.

Now, what do you suppose that that means?

Again, Paul regularly used the words "law" and "flesh" interchangeably and he did so right here. Yes, WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, contextually, refers to the time WHEN WE WERE UNDER THE LAW and at such a time the motions of sins which were by the law did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Yes, under the law the motions of sin in our members brought forth fruit unto death whereas Christians who have been married to Christ now bring forth fruit unto God. Of course, in your mixed up theology, Christians still bring forth fruit unto death because they are basically powerless against sin in that they allegedly have some sort of "flesh" that causes them to behave in ungodly manners...even though Paul said WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH or WHEN WE WERE UNDER THE LAW, past tense.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6)

Again, being delivered from the law and no longer being in the flesh are the same thing...whether you like it or not. Those who are delivered from the law serve in newness of spirit and/or those who are no longer in the flesh bring forth fruit unto God.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful" (Romans 7:7-13)


Paul understood full well that the law is holy and the commandment holy, just and good. What was the problem then? Well, this takes us to your quote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)

Again, a man with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh can never keep a spiritual law. It is only when one has truly been circumcised inwardly, in the heart or in the spirit, that he can truly obey a Spirit God and His spiritual law:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29)

Do you honestly believe that Paul was here referring to himself as somebody who was carnal and sold under sin AS A CHRISTIAN? If you do, then you're out of your mind. Paul was employing the historical present here in the Greek. Read up on it if you're not familiar with what that is. Paul was anything but carnal and he rebuked others who were carnal and he certainly wasn't sold under sin as a Christian. In fact, he had just finished saying how that sin has no dominion over Christians. Why not? Well, because they were no longer under the law or no longer in the flesh:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

You, on the other hand, would have us to believe that sin still had dominion over Paul while he was under grace. Why is that? Whatever your motivation or whatever your problem, Paul was speaking in Romans chapter 7 of his condition pre-salvation or while the law of sin and death still had dominion over him. Guys like you need to pull verses totally out of their contexts to promote your error. I'm not buying it and no Christian should.

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." (Romans 7:15-16)

Why was Paul here consenting unto the law that it is good if he wasn't talking about his condition while he was yet under the law? Again, sin has dominion over a man while he is yet under the law and this is what Paul was talking about here.

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:17)

Again, Paul referred to the law of sin and death which was at work in his members as an unsaved man under the law and he had previously mentioned bodily members in relation to sin in this manner:

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:12-14)

Christians now possess the power to not let sin reign in their mortal bodies in that they need not yield their members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin because sin shall not have dominion over them FOR THEY ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. I could easily continue on to chapter 8 where Paul again contrasted the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus with the law of sin of death, but you apparently see no difference between the two in that you apparently believe that Christians are still in the flesh and therefore powerless against sin. You need to renounce that nonsense and the sooner the better.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I could very possibly agree with that statement, yet I don't see why you seem to be saying that Christians don't have the flesh to deal with, or I could better say, the flesh to keep dead and crucified with Christ.
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:16-24)

What do you suppose "and they that are Christ's HAVE", past tense, "crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" means? Again, contextually, Paul was addressing the differences between the law of sin and death and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and those who "walk after the flesh" are those who merely have an outward circumcision in the foreskins of their flesh which renders them totally powerless in the face of a law which is spiritual as Paul explained in his epistle to the Romans. Those who are no longer under the law of sin and death and those who have crucified the flesh are one and the same.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:16-24)

What do you suppose "and they that are Christ's HAVE", past tense, "crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" means? Again, contextually, Paul was addressing the differences between the law of sin and death and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and those who "walk after the flesh" are those who merely have an outward circumcision in the foreskins of their flesh which renders them totally powerless in the face of a law which is spiritual as Paul explained in his epistle to the Romans. Those who are no longer under the law of sin and death and those who have crucified the flesh are one and the same.
I would say that those who are Christ's are no longer under the law of sin and death, and because of that, they crucify their flesh.

That does not mean however that the flesh won't ,on occasion, try to rise again. Nor does it mean that if they yield to it ,they are no longer Christ's.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Now, let's read it in context:

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Romans 7:1)

Paul was speaking to those who knew the law and about how the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives.

"For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Romans 7:2-4)

In the same manner in which a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives and she is only free to be married to another if her husband is dead, saints who were once bound to the law are now dead to the law by the body of Christ and they are now married to Christ that they might bring forth fruit unto God. IOW, in the same manner in which a woman is under the dominion of her husband as long as he lives, a person is under the dominion of the law of sin and death as long as it lives. It is not until the law is dealt with by the body of Christ that such a dominion ceases.

"FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Romans 7:5)

FOR WHEN WE WERE, past tense, IN THE FLESH.

Now, what do you suppose that that means?

Again, Paul regularly used the words "law" and "flesh" interchangeably and he did so right here. Yes, WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, contextually, refers to the time WHEN WE WERE UNDER THE LAW and at such a time the motions of sins which were by the law did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Yes, under the law the motions of sin in our members brought forth fruit unto death whereas Christians who have been married to Christ now bring forth fruit unto God. Of course, in your mixed up theology, Christians still bring forth fruit unto death because they are basically powerless against sin in that they allegedly have some sort of "flesh" that causes them to behave in ungodly manners...even though Paul said WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH or WHEN WE WERE UNDER THE LAW, past tense.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6)

Again, being delivered from the law and no longer being in the flesh are the same thing...whether you like it or not. Those who are delivered from the law serve in newness of spirit and/or those who are no longer in the flesh bring forth fruit unto God.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful" (Romans 7:7-13)


Paul understood full well that the law is holy and the commandment holy, just and good. What was the problem then? Well, this takes us to your quote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)

Again, a man with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh can never keep a spiritual law. It is only when one has truly been circumcised inwardly, in the heart or in the spirit, that he can truly obey a Spirit God and His spiritual law:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29)

Do you honestly believe that Paul was here referring to himself as somebody who was carnal and sold under sin AS A CHRISTIAN? If you do, then you're out of your mind. Paul was employing the historical present here in the Greek. Read up on it if you're not familiar with what that is. Paul was anything but carnal and he rebuked others who were carnal and he certainly wasn't sold under sin as a Christian. In fact, he had just finished saying how that sin has no dominion over Christians. Why not? Well, because they were no longer under the law or no longer in the flesh:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

You, on the other hand, would have us to believe that sin still had dominion over Paul while he was under grace. Why is that? Whatever your motivation or whatever your problem, Paul was speaking in Romans chapter 7 of his condition pre-salvation or while the law of sin and death still had dominion over him. Guys like you need to pull verses totally out of their contexts to promote your error. I'm not buying it and no Christian should.

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." (Romans 7:15-16)

Why was Paul here consenting unto the law that it is good if he wasn't talking about his condition while he was yet under the law? Again, sin has dominion over a man while he is yet under the law and this is what Paul was talking about here.

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:17)

Again, Paul referred to the law of sin and death which was at work in his members as an unsaved man under the law and he had previously mentioned bodily members in relation to sin in this manner:

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:12-14)

Christians now possess the power to not let sin reign in their mortal bodies in that they need not yield their members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin because sin shall not have dominion over them FOR THEY ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. I could easily continue on to chapter 8 where Paul again contrasted the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus with the law of sin of death, but you apparently see no difference between the two in that you apparently believe that Christians are still in the flesh and therefore powerless against sin. You need to renounce that nonsense and the sooner the better.
Look you can try to change words , but clearly Paul is telling us all that we all have sin in the flesh and that sin is stirred up by the law and under the law (ten commandments) sin has power over those under the law.

We see throughout the rest of the epistles that the conflict between the flesh and spirit is well established...so im not sure what point your trying to make? No one that I have seen has suggested we are supposed to submit or yield to the flesh, but to deny its sinfulness is to deny the very gospel Paul preached and taught.
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Look you can try to change words , but clearly Paul is telling us all that we all have sin in the flesh and that sin is stirred up by the law and under the law (ten commandments) sin has power over those under the law.

We see throughout the rest of the epistles that the conflict between the flesh and spirit is well established...so im not sure what point your trying to make? No one that I have seen has suggested we are supposed to submit or yield to the flesh, but to deny its sinfulness is to deny the very gospel Paul preached and taught.
The word changer is you, Mitspa, and the word which you're changing and wresting is the very Word of God and such ought to cause you to tremble before the Lord. Again, Paul taught that those who have been born of the Spirit ARE NOT IN THE FLESH whether you like it or not:

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:8-9)

Tell me, Mitspa, does the Spirit of God dwell in you? Listening to your error, I have my doubts in that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth and not the spirit of error which John wrote of in his first epistle and the spirit which is clearly currently leading you. Those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them ARE NOT IN THE FLESH. Now, what do you suppose that that means? Of course, contextually and in truth, it means that they are not under the law in that nobody can receive the Spirit of God via the law, but only via faith in Christ:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:1-3)

Christians not only receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, but Paul used the words "law" and "flesh" interchangeably here as well as he often did throughout his epistles:

"by the works of the law"
"by the flesh"

Would you like some more examples of what I'm talking about? Sure, no problem:

"As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." (Galatians 6:12-13)

Again, Paul is here using the words "flesh", "circumcised" and "law" interchangeably because, again, anybody who is under the law with merely an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is totally powerless in the face of a law which is spiritual and a God Who is Spirit and they will therefore be in bondage to sin.

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:3-6)

Again, for those of us who actually understand Paul's epistles and don't wrest his words, Paul clearly equated "the flesh" with both "circumcision" and "the law" and you ought to do the same and stop teaching your dualistic heresy. Christians don't have two natures or some "flesh" which allegedly has some sort of mind of its own and which constantly combats Christians. Go to a wake or funeral, Mitspa, and see how much someone's "flesh" sins when their spirit has already left their body. People willfully choose to yield their members to sin and their members aren't somehow overpowering them on their own.

"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" (I Corinthians 10:18)

Who is "Israel after the flesh"? Well, of course, it is the natural Jew who is seeking justification under the law with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh who is joined here with the Old Testament sacrifices which were made upon the altar. Paul spent considerable time in Galatians chapter 4 and elsewhere with the allegorical teaching of Ishmael, who was born of the flesh, and Isaac, who was born of the Spirit, and how their relationships with their mothers, one a bondwoman (Hagar) and one a freewoman (Sarah), equate to the two covenants:

1. The Old Testament law given at Mt. Sinai which genders to bondage and which represents natural Israel or "Israel after the flesh" who is seeking justification via the law.

2. The New Testament in Christ which genders to freedom from sin and which represents spiritual Israel of "the Israel of God" who has been justified via faith in Christ.

Again, in your mixed up theology, there's really no difference between the two in that Christians are allegedly still slaves to sin in that their "flesh" constantly combats them and forces them to do things that they don't want to do even though Paul clearly stated that Christians ARE NOT IN THE FLESH and even though he clearly spoke of the time in the past when Christians WERE IN THE FLESH prior to finding salvation in Christ.

You don't know what my point is?

My point is that you're wresting Paul's words to your own potential destruction and to the potential destruction of those foolish enough to listen to you. Jesus came to save us FROM OUR SINS, which is what His very name means, but you preach an alleged gospel which still enslaves people to sin by creating some dualistic nature in Christians which neither Paul nor anybody else actually spoke of. In essence, you're denying the atonement of Christ in that you're denying that Jesus' sacrifice was effective enough to undo all of the damage which was brought into this world via the first Adam. You need to reread your Bible prayerfully, Mitspa, and to repent and forsake your error. If that's too plain for you, then too bad. You're misrepresenting the gospel of Christ and somebody needs to stand you to the face and tell you so.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I would say that those who are Christ's are no longer under the law of sin and death, and because of that, they crucify their flesh.

That does not mean however that the flesh won't ,on occasion, try to rise again. Nor does it mean that if they yield to it ,they are no longer Christ's.
Please read my responses to Mitspa. According to Paul, Christians ARE NOT IN THE FLESH and I've already explained what that means. If you want to combat an imaginary enemy, then have at it. In the meantime, your real enemies, Satan and demons, delight in such error.