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M

Mitspa

Guest
The word changer is you, Mitspa, and the word which you're changing and wresting is the very Word of God and such ought to cause you to tremble before the Lord. Again, Paul taught that those who have been born of the Spirit ARE NOT IN THE FLESH whether you like it or not:

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:8-9)

Tell me, Mitspa, does the Spirit of God dwell in you? Listening to your error, I have my doubts in that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth and not the spirit of error which John wrote of in his first epistle and the spirit which is clearly currently leading you. Those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them ARE NOT IN THE FLESH. Now, what do you suppose that that means? Of course, contextually and in truth, it means that they are not under the law in that nobody can receive the Spirit of God via the law, but only via faith in Christ:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:1-3)

Christians not only receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, but Paul used the words "law" and "flesh" interchangeably here as well as he often did throughout his epistles:

"by the works of the law"
"by the flesh"

Would you like some more examples of what I'm talking about? Sure, no problem:

"As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." (Galatians 6:12-13)

Again, Paul is here using the words "flesh", "circumcised" and "law" interchangeably because, again, anybody who is under the law with merely an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is totally powerless in the face of a law which is spiritual and a God Who is Spirit and they will therefore be in bondage to sin.

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:3-6)

Again, for those of us who actually understand Paul's epistles and don't wrest his words, Paul clearly equated "the flesh" with both "circumcision" and "the law" and you ought to do the same and stop teaching your dualistic heresy. Christians don't have two natures or some "flesh" which allegedly has some sort of mind of its own and which constantly combats Christians. Go to a wake or funeral, Mitspa, and see how much someone's "flesh" sins when their spirit has already left their body. People willfully choose to yield their members to sin and their members aren't somehow overpowering them on their own.

"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" (I Corinthians 10:18)

Who is "Israel after the flesh"? Well, of course, it is the natural Jew who is seeking justification under the law with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh who is joined here with the Old Testament sacrifices which were made upon the altar. Paul spent considerable time in Galatians chapter 4 and elsewhere with the allegorical teaching of Ishmael, who was born of the flesh, and Isaac, who was born of the Spirit, and how their relationships with their mothers, one a bondwoman (Hagar) and one a freewoman (Sarah), equate to the two covenants:

1. The Old Testament law given at Mt. Sinai which genders to bondage and which represents natural Israel or "Israel after the flesh" who is seeking justification via the law.

2. The New Testament in Christ which genders to freedom from sin and which represents spiritual Israel of "the Israel of God" who has been justified via faith in Christ.

Again, in your mixed up theology, there's really no difference between the two in that Christians are allegedly still slaves to sin in that their "flesh" constantly combats them and forces them to do things that they don't want to do even though Paul clearly stated that Christians ARE NOT IN THE FLESH and even though he clearly spoke of the time in the past when Christians WERE IN THE FLESH prior to finding salvation in Christ.

You don't know what my point is?

My point is that you're wresting Paul's words to your own potential destruction and to the potential destruction of those foolish enough to listen to you. Jesus came to save us FROM OUR SINS, which is what His very name means, but you preach an alleged gospel which still enslaves people to sin by creating some dualistic nature in Christians which neither Paul nor anybody else actually spoke of. In essence, you're denying the atonement of Christ in that you're denying that Jesus' sacrifice was effective enough to undo all of the damage which was brought into this world via the first Adam. You need to reread your Bible prayerfully, Mitspa, and to repent and forsake your error. If that's too plain for you, then too bad. You're misrepresenting the gospel of Christ and somebody needs to stand you to the face and tell you so.
Friend you have to ignore the rest of the New Testament to believe that a born-again Christian does not have to deal with the flesh and that the flesh is not yet the source of sin in a believer. Now I would post some scripture, but you seem to be unable to be reproved of your errors? So I would just say "your clearly wrong"
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

How can someone argue that a believer does not have to battle the flesh, and claim they believe the bible?
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

How can someone argue that a believer does not have to battle the flesh, and claim they believe the bible?
Again, the one who doesn't believe the Bible is you. Paul said, not that his words mean anything to you, that Christians ARE NOT IN THE FLESH and he also clearly explained what that means. The conflict of which Paul wrote in the above cited passage is a conflict which exists in one seeking to be justified by the law which is spiritual in nature while having only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh. IOW, the spiritual law and the Spirit of God will be commanding such an one to behave in a particular holy manner, but because such an one is yet unregenerate and yet has not the Spirit of God dwelling within him or yet has not been circumcised in the spirit or the heart, he cannot obey the dictates of the same. Period.

Well, thanks for plainly telling us that you believe that Christians cannot do the things that they would like to do in relation to obeying God. Yep, there you have it, folks, in his own words:

Christ's atonement was a failure.

Repent of your heresy before you have to answer directly to God for it one day.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Friend you have to ignore the rest of the New Testament to believe that a born-again Christian does not have to deal with the flesh and that the flesh is not yet the source of sin in a believer. Now I would post some scripture, but you seem to be unable to be reproved of your errors? So I would just say "your clearly wrong"
Post all the scriptures that you'd like to post. When you're finished, I'll show you, once again, how you've pulled them out of context and applied to them heretical meanings which were never intended by Paul.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

How can someone argue that a believer does not have to battle the flesh, and claim they believe the bible?
Btw, why didn't you also quote verse 18?

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:16-18)

"not fulfill the lust of the flesh"
"not under the law"


The whole context of Paul's words which you keep on butchering is the context of admonishing Christians not to go back under the law and not to be compelled to be outwardly circumcised because such will render them totally powerless, spiritually speaking, because, again, that which is spiritual in nature cannot be obeyed by merely an outward fleshly circumcision.

Well, somebody will get it.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Btw, why didn't you also quote verse 18?

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:16-18)

"not fulfill the lust of the flesh"
"not under the law"


The whole context of Paul's words which you keep on butchering is the context of admonishing Christians not to go back under the law and not to be compelled to be outwardly circumcised because such will render them totally powerless, spiritually speaking, because, again, that which is spiritual in nature cannot be obeyed by merely an outward fleshly circumcision.

Well, somebody will get it.
Not denying that being under the law, is being in the flesh...but the flesh is still present with the believer and the believer overcomes the flesh through the spirit. The flesh don't vanish, when we get saved (born-again) its overcome by submission to the spirit ...now one can be in the flesh by legalism, yes....but one can be in the flesh by submission to owns own lust as well.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
lets try a few more scriptures...maybe you will get it?

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Now lets think about this...why would Paul tell believers to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...if they didn't have the flesh?
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
lets try a few more scriptures...maybe you will get it?

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Now lets think about this...why would Paul tell believers to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...if they didn't have the flesh?
Again, you're ignoring, deliberately, it seems, the context of Paul's words both here and elsewhere in his other epistles. The overriding theme of Paul's letters to both the Galatians and the Romans was that of the differences between the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. "The flesh" which Paul was here and elsewhere admonishing his readers to not "walk in" is directly related, contextually, not that the same seems to matter to you, with his admonitions not to go back under the law and not to be circumcised outwardly. That's reality, Mitspa, whether you like it or not. You repeatedly cherry-pick isolated verses out of their immediate and overall contexts in attempts to make your point. All that you're doing, in reality, is wresting Paul's words and that is not a good thing for you or for anybody foolish enough to be swayed by your error. Those who "sow to the flesh" or those who seek to be justified under the law with merely an outward fleshly circumcision will most definitely "reap corruption" and this is what Paul was actually talking about, again, whether you like it or not.

"As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:12-16)

Yes, those who "sow to the flesh" by yielding to the temptation of seeking to "make a fair shew in the flesh" via outward "circumcision" and by attempting to "keep the law" will ultimately "avail nothing" and they are not a part of what Paul called "the Israel of God". No, rather, they are, even as we read earlier, part of "Israel after the flesh" or part of those who seek to be justified under the law with only an outward circumcision in the foreskins of their flesh. Like Hagar and Ishmael of old, such will ultimately be cast out and shall not be heirs with those who comprise "the Israel of God".
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Not denying that being under the law, is being in the flesh...but the flesh is still present with the believer and the believer overcomes the flesh through the spirit. The flesh don't vanish, when we get saved (born-again) its overcome by submission to the spirit ...now one can be in the flesh by legalism, yes....but one can be in the flesh by submission to owns own lust as well.
What is "the flesh"? It seems rather apparent, in reading your posts, that you believe that it truly is the "sinful nature" that you previously admitted that it isn't. Your "flesh", Mitspa, is simply that:

FLESH.

You know, skin. Your skin doesn't make you sin. You, the real you, spirit and soul who is contained within a fleshy body, choose to either yield your members unto sin or unto righteousness even as Paul taught in Romans chapter 6. You've got some strange theology, Mitspa, and no matter how popular it is (unfortunately), it is still erroneous.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
What is "the flesh"? It seems rather apparent, in reading your posts, that you believe that it truly is the "sinful nature" that you previously admitted that it isn't. Your "flesh", Mitspa, is simply that:

FLESH.

You know, skin. Your skin doesn't make you sin. You, the real you, spirit and soul who is contained within a fleshy body, choose to either yield your members unto sin or unto righteousness even as Paul taught in Romans chapter 6. You've got some strange theology, Mitspa, and no matter how popular it is (unfortunately), it is still erroneous.
No listen ...just like Paul said...the flesh is the body of sin...or sin that dwells in the flesh.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Now clearly , Paul is not teaching that we don't have the body of sin but that it must be brought into subjection to the Spirit through the knowledge of Christ.

Paul uses this term to describe the physical element of our make-up verses the spiritual...its not even always used in a negative way. But the point being of our own physical abilities, we cannot serve God.....those who worship God, must worship Him in spirit and truth.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
What is "the flesh"? It seems rather apparent, in reading your posts, that you believe that it truly is the "sinful nature" that you previously admitted that it isn't. Your "flesh", Mitspa, is simply that:

FLESH.

You know, skin. Your skin doesn't make you sin. You, the real you, spirit and soul who is contained within a fleshy body, choose to either yield your members unto sin or unto righteousness even as Paul taught in Romans chapter 6. You've got some strange theology, Mitspa, and no matter how popular it is (unfortunately), it is still erroneous.
And yes...every human..saved and unsaved has "sin" and that nature to sin....although that is not the correct translation of that passage... Do you have sin in you? When you sin..where does it come from?
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
No listen ...just like Paul said...the flesh is the body of sin...or sin that dwells in the flesh.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Now clearly , Paul is not teaching that we don't have the body of sin but that it must be brought into subjection to the Spirit through the knowledge of Christ.

Paul uses this term to describe the physical element of our make-up verses the spiritual...its not even always used in a negative way. But the point being of our own physical abilities, we cannot serve God.....those who worship God, must worship Him in spirit and truth.
Are you even reading your own posts? I mean, you begin by quoting me a portion of scripture which states that a Christian's "old man was crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed" and that we therefore "should not serve sin" in that we are indeed "dead to sin" and then you contend that Paul is "NOT teaching that we don't have the body of sin, but that it must be brought into subjection". I don't have "a body of sin". No, that was crucified with Christ. I presently have a body which I can either willfully yield unto sin or willfully yield unto righteousness and such was never the case with an unregenerate man. No, again, such an one was confronted with a spiritual law by a Spirit God which he could never keep apart from a circumcision in the spirit and his outward fleshly circumcision availed him nothing.

Anyhow, I'm not going to beat this dead horse with you. I've already shared more than enough with you for God to give the increase to. My advice to you would be to simply ask God if what I've shared here is accurate or not. If you're not willing to do that, then all of our back and forth is basically a waste of time and I'm really not into wasting time.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
And yes...every human..saved and unsaved has "sin" and that nature to sin....although that is not the correct translation of that passage... Do you have sin in you? When you sin..where does it come from?
If you still have a "nature to sin", then I'd heartily recommend that you become born again. When I sin, it comes either from ignorance on my part in that my mind hasn't been fully renewed to mirror the mind of Christ or it comes from a willful decision on my part to yield one of my members unto sin. My nature is to follow Christ. If such isn't your testimony, then you're not even saved.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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I won’t deny that I “have an attitude” but I don’t recall ever being told that before. Interesting.

As you so boldly told me that I am part of the problem, I say to you: your words, “glory be to God, His grace is sufficient, and He's transforming my heart from tare to wheat, even as I write this” is the mindset that people have that causes the disastrous situation in our churches. It implies that we can sin and say oops, but that’s okay God forgives us. It is a variation of the excuse people use to be nasty in one way or another, for example: ‘I just have a really short fuse – it’s just the way I am’…and that makes it okay not to exercise and develop our self-control. We can be rude and hateful because that is just how we are.
You've misunderstood me and incorrectly put words in my mouth. Having a mindset that means we can go about life willfully sinning so that grace may abound all the more goes against Scripture. Most Christians I know do not support such views. What we do support is the acknowledgment that we are sinners, and we live by grace, but we are called to grow in Spirit and bear good fruit. Hence, transformation.

My transformation is true, because until recently I would have wrongfully come out with both guns blazing in my response to you, but instead, I am sharing in a gentle manner. Some of that righteous indignation is still in reserve for modern day Pharisees who need it, but other than that, its wonderful to share in the essence of the Spirit which we are called to do.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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Anyways, I am done with is conversation. One of the reasons why I do not frequent this site as much as I once did is that fact that so many here are simply looking for a reason to squabble and argue over the same tired old subjects year after year.

Most are here to push or defend their personal, doctrinal, & denomintional beliefs.
Few are here to truly seek the heart of God. There is very little desire for the presence of God and spiritual growth. That is evident by their argumentative nature. That is also a sad fact. :(
As you so eloquently shared with us in your OP.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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I've read my Bible prayerfully from cover to cover for the last 27 years. Again, whether you like it or not, Paul regularly used the words "flesh", "law", "circumcision" and "bondage" interchangeably because anyone with only an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh is not going to be able to keep any sort of spiritual law or obey any sort of Spirit God and they will instead be in bondage to sin. As such, you, my friend, ought to reread your own Bible prayerfully. Sin only abides in the flesh or in the bodies of those who willfully yield their members to the same and Christians were instructed by this same Paul to not do the same.
I never realized so many perfect, sinless people exist until I joined CC.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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I am no expert on the subject, since I only attend my church, but it would seem to me a lot of churches are not walking closely with the Lord, or at least, their leaders aren't.
I joined a new congregation three years ago. The minister at that time stated muhammed was a great prophet and occasionally referred to God as her. The current minister consistently stated islam is a wonderful religion. I no longer attend that congregation or that denomination.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I never realized so many perfect, sinless people exist until I joined CC.
I've never claimed to be either perfect or sinless, so you really ought to make better use of your time than to waste it making ridiculously false accusations. You do know what the accuser of the brethren is, don't you? Why are you doing his bidding?
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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I've never claimed to be either perfect or sinless, so you really ought to make better use of your time than to waste it making ridiculously false accusations. You do know what the accuser of the brethren is, don't you? Why are you doing his bidding?
If you are stating that you are a sinner who lives by grace, then I rejoice for you and with you. I apologize if this is your stance and I misunderstood you. CC has quite a few perfect folks who post a lot of what you have posted, and they condemn everyone for everything. I incorrectly felt you were just another one.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
If you still have a "nature to sin", then I'd heartily recommend that you become born again. When I sin, it comes either from ignorance on my part in that my mind hasn't been fully renewed to mirror the mind of Christ or it comes from a willful decision on my part to yield one of my members unto sin. My nature is to follow Christ. If such isn't your testimony, then you're not even saved.
What are you saying? I read through your posts and pretty much came up with Utah's conclusion.

You no longer have a sin nature and only have the new creation in Christ?