"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#61
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman and all,

Post 52 was really trying to show you that your interpretation on Col 2:16-17 does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible and my first other posts are showing that your interpretation of the TORAH is very narrow and this is where you have made your mistakes as this is where your building your whole foundation. If the foundation is not right how can your interpretation be correct? Here is some more scripture to consider in relation to Col 2:16-17 hope this is helpful my friend. Lots of scripture so take your time.

The Shadow Sabbaths of Colossians 2:17 continued with context....

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


What was nailed to the cross? Verse 13 states that those dead in their sinful flesh have been made alive by Christ who forgives all their sins. So in that context, verse 14 is clearly saying that the list of our trespasses, our sins, our breaking of the Ten Commandments is nailed to the cross. We are forgiven of all our sins at the cross. Verse 15 declares victory over the works of Satan and his fallen angels at the cross.


There are some who would point to Colossians 2:16 as evidence that today the Christian is released by God from observing any holy day what-so-ever, that the 10 Commandments themselves were nailed to the cross. The main reason they cite this verse is to show that there is no need for the "New Testament" Christian to observe the biblical Sabbath day (Saturday), and that anyone who does advocate Sabbath keeping is a legalist and an enemy of salvation by grace alone. Usually though, they do not quote verse 17, and rarely if ever do the explain the relevance of verse 17.


The passage should be considered as a complete sentence as follows:


Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The Prophetic Shadow Sabbaths


Verse 17 is saying that the sabbath days referred to in verse 16 were "shadows" of things to come. So what does that mean?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


The law spoken of there is the ceremonial law, the yearly calendar connected with the symbolic sacrificial system of animal sacrifices, and offerings of food and drink at the Temple. As Heb 10:4 states, the animal sacrifices were incapable of taking away sins, and those sacrifices were offered repeatedly year by year (v. 1), according to the ceremonial law. These powerless sacrifices could only remind the sinner of their sin (v. 3). But the body of Christ is introduced in verse 5, which would be offered once to take away sins (v. 10). As verse 9 states, the first (ceremonial animal sacrifices) were taken away by the second, the sacrifice of Christ. So it is the ceremonial system of animal sacrifices and their associated shadow sabbaths that ended at the cross. That is also what Hebrews 9, cited above, is saying, that this reformation happened with the shedding of Christ's blood, providing the eternal redemption that was not possible by the animal sacrifices of the earthly (first) tabernacle.


Ezekiel refers to the ceremonial sacrificial offerings to be made at the tabernacle in a way nearly identical to Colossians:


Ezek 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Scripture makes a distinction between the ten commandments and ceremonial law, and speaks of the ceremonial law in the same way that Colossians 2:14 does:


Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Deu 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
Deu 31:10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
Deu 31:11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
..................
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


2 Chr 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Note that the yearly ceremonial days are ordinances (statutes):
Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances [H2708. chuqqah] of the passover they shall keep it.
....................
Num 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance [H2708. chuqqah] of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.


Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute [H2708. chuqqah] for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute [H2708. chuqqah] unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute [H2708. chuqqah] for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.


The ceremonial law, the ordinances written by the hand of Moses in a book, was clearly distinct from the Ten Commandments, which were written by the finger of God on tables of stone. In Leviticus, Moses makes note of the fact that the yearly ceremonial sabbaths, instituted for the purpose of offerings and sacrifices, were separate and distinct from the weekly Sabbath:


Lev 23:37 These are the [yearly] feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations [sabbaths], to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, everything upon his day: [referred to in Col. 2:16-17]
Lev 23:38 Beside the [weekly seventh day] sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

In other words, the yearly ceremonial sabbaths set forth in Leviticus 23 were distinct from, and in addition to, the seventh day weekly Sabbath of the Lord, particularly with respect to the fact that sacrifices were necessary in order to observe the symbolic ceremonial days.
1 Chr 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:
2 Chr 35:6 So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

The yearly sabbaths were all set according to the new moons, which marked the beginning of the month. They were observed in the order and on the dates set by God at Sinai for the purpose of making sacrifices. The weekly seventh day Sabbath commandment is distinctive, in that it does not have any intrinsic requirement for sacrifices or burnt offerings (Exo. 20:8-11, Deut 5:12-15), and it is not set by the new moon.


Nehemiah also calls special attention to the seventh day Sabbath:


Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:


The yearly ceremonial sabbaths that the Jews observed in connection with the Temple or Sanctuary were a shadow, or prophetic in nature, of future events. Every year the Jews were acting out the plan of salvation as demonstrated by the Temple sacrifices and ceremonies. The whole process was designed as a play of sorts, to explain to everyone the exact sequence of events in God's plan to redeem mankind. The focus of this plan, of course, is Jesus Christ in his role as the Lamb of God, as well as his role of High Priest or Mediator between God the Father and humanity.


It is essential that one have a basic understanding of the ceremonial calendar associated with the Hebrew Sanctuary. God intended the Sanctuary and it's services as an instructional tool to teach all people His plan of salvation, and I believe every Christian can benefit greatly from studying it. It has particular relevance near the end of time, because it lays out in detail the sequential process of events that God is using and will follow in the very near future.


In brief, these were the yearly ceremonial days observed and associated sabbaths.

Spring Calendar:


· Passover, The crucifixion, Jesus is God's Passover Lamb. (14 Nisan, not a Sabbath)
· Feast of Unleavened Bread (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) Putting away sin from one's life.
o Sabbath of 15 Nisan, 1st day of the feast.
o The Omer, first fruits of the barley harvest, 16 Nisan. Resurrection.
o Sabbath of 21 Nisan, 7th and last day of the feast.
· Feast of Weeks - Pentecost, a sabbath day 50 days after the Omer (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) Firstfruits of the wheat harvest. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Fall Calendar:
· Trumpets, Sabbath of 1 Tishri, Announcement of impending judgment.
· Day of Atonement, Sabbath of 10 Tishri, The pre-Advent Judgment.
· Feast of Tabernacles (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) The ingathering of God's people - the second coming.
o Sabbath of 15 Tishri, 1st day of Tabernacles, freed from the bondage of sin.
o Sabbath of 22 Tishri, 8th and last day of Tabernacles.

Prior to the incarnation of Jesus and his crucifixion, all the above festivals awaited their fulfillment. They were what are called "types". They were symbolic of specific events yet to come. The event that is foretold is referred to as the "antitype". In the New Testament, the Greek words corresponding to type and antitype are:


G5179. tupos, too'-pos; from G5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by impl.) a stamp or scar; by anal. a shape, i.e. a statue, (fig.) style or resemblance; spec. a sampler ("type"), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning):--en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.
G499. antitupon, an-teet'-oo-pon; neut. of a comp. of G473 and G5179; corresponding ["antitype"], i.e. a representative, counterpart:--(like) figure (whereunto).
The "shadow" or "type" itself had no substance, but rather pointed to a future event that would have substance, the "antitype". For example, slaying the Passover lamb is the type, the crucifixion of Jesus is the antitype.

God bless you will do a small add on to this....

Nice to see someone who actually uses the scripture of the OT as the disciples and Jesus himself did to prove their point is not merely their own but the word of God.

Ps prepare to be ignored and have none of it addressed. But keep up the good work, others will read and see you have divided the word of God correctly. That your view is not opinion but firmly established in the sound teachings of Christ.
 
Last edited:
Feb 1, 2014
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#62
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Nice to see someone who actually uses the scripture of the OT as the disciples and Jesus himself did to prove their point is not merely their own but the word of God.

Ps prepare to be ignored and have none of it addressed. But keep up the good work, others will read and see you have divided the word of God correctly. That your view is not opinion but firmly established in the sound teachings of Christ.
Yes, and please inform everyone that Ellen G. White believed that masturbation was caused by eating meat, that humans bred with animals prior to the Flood (amalgamation) and formed offspring, and that eating ketchup, spices, pickles is bad for you.

And, that other SDAs believed eating hot cereal caused masturbation.

And, that SDAs are ok with abortions and their health care facilities perform them on the same standards as wordly health care facilities.

And, that you as a SDA pastor are fine with abortions as long as your church member and their doctor agree to it.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#63
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Continued from last post...........

The Memorial Seventh-day Sabbath


This is the distinction between the yearly ceremonial sabbaths and the Seventh-day Sabbath: obviously the Seventh-day Sabbath occurs on the last day of every week, but rather than being prophetic in nature, it is commemorative, a memorial to creation, established by God himself as scripture clearly tells us-
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Because it is only commemorative, and not a shadow of things to come, the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath is really not part of the discussion in Colossians 2:17. When this is understood, the weekly seventh-day Sabbath is clearly not a part of the prophetic sequence of events in the plan of salvation that are portrayed by the yearly ceremonial Sabbaths.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul is saying that the believing Christian need not keep the ceremonial laws, the shadow sabbaths, because they find fulfillment in faith in Jesus Christ, the true passover lamb.
The schoolmaster was the yearly ceremonial sabbaths associated with the Hebrew Temple, which taught the plan of salvation through a coming Messiah, the passover lamb of God. Now that salvation through Jesus of Nazareth is clear to the Gentile church, there is no further need of the schoolmaster (the earthly Temple, its ceremonies and shadow sabbaths) because that lesson has been learned by those with faith. However, nowhere does the Bible indicate that one of the Ten Commandments has been abrogated, or that the disciples or Jesus abandoned the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath for Sunday keeping. Indeed the Bible makes clear, that in the future all believers will keep the true Seventh-day Sabbath-

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

God's Sabbath (Saturday) was never rescinded. It is eternal, intended as a constant reminder that we are created beings, responsible to our creator at the end of time. God's Sabbath was made in the creation week before mankind had sinned so can never be a shadow or type. The Seventh-day Sabbath will be kept in perpetuity by God's people because they are obedient and keep the commandments of God. This is particularly true as we near the end of time-

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Hope this helps the faithful Bereans...

God bless you my friends
It's obvious you're just spamming with long lists. I have reported this to the moderators.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#64
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a link to Proclamation! magazine which is geared toward addressing Seventh Day Adventists and their bad doctrines:

Proclamation Magazine

Here's a link to the book Sabbath in Christ which addresses the faulty arguments concerning Colossians 2:16-17 that Seventh Day Adventists have proposed, which claims the weekly Sabbath isn't included in the items listed:

Sabbath in Christ

Again, notice that the Seventh Day Adventist spammed this thread with a list of 100 reasons why the Sabbath still applies. I could refute these but it would take hours. He knows that when he posts such a list, and it is simply a tactic to make it look like his view has more biblical support. I would be glad to talk to anyone one-on-one about the claims he is making.

Also, note that he doesn't identify with the Seventh Day Adventists, but it's obvious from his remarks that he is SDA. That is part of their tactics..they don't identify themselves outright. Many times, the circulars they mail out don't identify them as Seventh Day Adventists because many know they are cultic and avoid them for that reason. I have talked to quite a few people who have went to prophecy seminars and they don't learn until the end of the seminar that the sponsors are Seventh Day Adventists. This is deception and unbecoming of someone claiming to be a Christian.

He is also advertising his own website on this forum and that is against the rules. It has been reported and I encourage others to report it.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#65
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman,
Thanks for your comments. Sorry for the slow reply, I am not able to spend a lot of time here due to work and family commitments. This is a longer post as I thought it deserved some time. Hope you do not mind.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:16-17)

These are interesting scriptures. Some people try and use this passage to say that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 has been done away with thinking that the sabbath day(s) instead of day used in this text referred to one of the shadows or types that we were discussing in my last post that pointed to the coming of Jesus very much like many of the other types (e.g. Sacrificial lamb and animal offerings, feast days and ceremonial and sanctuary laws) pointing to Jesus and outlined the books of Moses (Torah) especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These were all part of the old covenant given after the fall of mankind, pointing to Jesus. These were done away at the cross because once Jesus had come this brought in the beginning of the new covenant.

To understand this passage of scripture however you need to look at the context of the scripture and also understand a little about the old testament feasts and holy days and new moons and festival and feast sabbath day(s) which were shadows that all pointed to Jesus. For example many of these old feast day(s) given in the Old Testament started and included on full moons, included burnt offerings, meat offering, drink offerings and ceremonial high Sabbath days (e.g. Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread see Ez 45:16-15).

There was seven festivals that did not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). Three of these festivals occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals.
The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English.

It was these High Sabbath that occurred within the Feast days that were a shadow of things to come not the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Weekly Sabbath. Why? Because everything relating to the Books of Moses and the Feast days (especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy etc.) Where part of the old covenant pointing out the plan of salvation and was given to mankind AFTER the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was given to mankind BEFORE the fall of mankind. So it is impossible that Col 2:16-17 is referring to God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day commandment (Ex 20:8-11) as being one of the types and shadows which pointed to Jesus.
Note: If anyone wants detailed nuts and bolts of all the feast day yearly ceremonial Sabbaths with all scripture references if anyone would like a copy. If you would like a copy just let me know if you want the info. It’s a bit long to cut and paste here.



Keep in mind here that when we use the word “Torah” (Hebrew) or “Pentateuch” (Greek) its meaning is the Book of Moses which is made of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

The purpose of the Torah of Book of Moses was to;
1. Provide the history of the 7 Day week of the creation of all things and the Creator (Genesis)
2. Provide the history of the fall of mankind into sin and our destruction because of sin with a great flood (Genesis)
3. Provide the history of God’s faithful people that followed God through this period (the minority Genesis and Exodos).
4. Provide the history of God’s covenant to Abraham and his seed because they obeyed God through faith and how God worked through his chosen people (Genesis and Exodos)
5. Provide history of the oppression of Gods people from those that do not follow God (Exodus)
6. Provide history of the deliverance of God’s people from oppression (Exodus)
7. Provide history of how God gave His Law (10 commandments) to his people which was spoken by God, written by God on two tables of stone from Sinai. (Exodus)
8. Provide a description of the plan of salvation from sin revealed through the Priestly Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and animal sacrificial system that include lessons from feast and holy days, new moons and ceremonial Sabbaths connected to these feasts (e.g. The Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets etc.) that all point to the coming of Jesus as the Saviour of the world. (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)
9. The rest of the Book of Moses (Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) outlines laws of Moses that are related to (the sanctuary service, ceremonial laws, civil and health laws.

The Book of Moses “Torah” is based around God’s 10 commandments but is not God’s 10 commandments. It describes what the 10 commandment are, how they were given and provides the background as to why God’s Law was given as well as providing a prescription if God’s people should sin and break any of his 10 commandments through the Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and sacrificial animal systems, Feast days, Holy Days, New Moons and ceremonial Sabbaths etc. which were a shadow of things to come (Col 2:16-17, Heb 10:1, Eph 2:14) and pointed to Jesus as our sacrifice and great high priest. The Torah (Book of Moses) is not the Law of God but a background to WHY it was given. It was placed in the side of the “Ark of the Covenant” but not inside the Ark of the Covenant with the 10 commandments. The Torah or Book of Moses is complimentary to God’s Law but is not God’s Law.



This is getting into a complete new topic so will not spend much time here. Sabbath breaking does not become the “Mark of the Beast” until it becomes forced observance and people are made to bow down to it under law of punishment. It is interesting not many people know that these laws have already been enacted in the US. They are called Sunday Blue laws and are ready to be enacted very quickly if needed. You can read about them here (Wiki). I have never held the view that those that do not keep the Sabbath are unconverted. God’s Word tells us…

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16) Jesus further tells us that….
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24) This event is also further described in the book of Revelations (Revelations 18:1-5). My view is that God has his people in all Churches but there will be a time that his sheep will hear His voice and there shall be one shepherd and one fold of God’s followers who worship him in spirit and in truth. (see Rev 14:12) Shadows were touched on above so no need to comment here.

Yes absolutely! This is referring to the new covenant of God writing His Laws in our hearts by the operation of God. So we no longer try to keep God’s Laws by the works of the Law but by complete faith and dependence on the Word of God to do what it says. Jesus promises to create in us a new heart through His spirit so that His Laws are kept in us now because we love him. This is a free gift to all who come to Jesus not because we deserve but because he loved us and chose to die for us that whoever should believe on His should not perish but have everlasting life (Heb 8:10-12; John 3:16)



Well the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Commandment 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath has never been a type or a shadow of things to come as highlighted earlier. This is because all the types and shadows highlighted in the Book of Moses (Torah; especially Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) where given to mankind after the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was instituted before the fall of mankind. God blessed this day and made it a holy day before the fall of mankind (Genesis 2:1-3). For this reason it is impossible for the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day Sabbath to be a type or a shadow of things to come.

The ceremonial Sabbath connected to Feast days of the Jewish calendar however have been fulfilled and were a shadow of things to come because they were connected to yearly feasts which pointed to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:28-36).

Hope this is helpful, I may not be on as much as I would like but will try and get on when I can sorry for any delays. Please forgive any typos I did not have much time to edit.

God bless you.

It would behoove you to post the link or book where you got all this information, and the copy and pastes in your other posts. Because, the way it stands, you have stolen someone's intellectual property, and have published it as though you wrote it. (Its the reason I always make a note of whether I have written something, and if I have based a post on something someone else has written.)

It is called plagiarism, and you could be taken to court for doing it. Of course, it would require the original author to go after you, and perhaps your SDA has allowed people to copy and paste its material in order to convert people to their false teachings.

However, that is still intellectually unethical, because it leaves everyone in the forum thinking you have written something when you have not. I guess you could call that "lying" or "bearing false witness." You know, one of the commandments you say it is so important to follow. But no, only keeping the Sabbath counts, not whether you lie to someone to convert them to your heretical beliefs, right? Oh, and stringing together a lot of copy and pastes, with a few words of your own does not make it your intellectual property, ok?


PS. You keep saying you are going to go, too busy, life calls, but you keep coming back with these copy and pastes. You are establishing an atmosphere of distrust. I now no longer believe anything you say! And that is not a loss, I think!
 
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prodigal

Guest
#66
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparks and all,

It is fine and everyone is entitled to their opinions but I did not see you answer my last post. There is a lot from God's Word in there to consider for those that are interested. I think the only way however for anyone to decide on anything relating to the Word of God is to be like the faithful Bereans who received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11) Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged."(Rom 3:4)

For me I study the Word of God for myself I am not here on behalf of any Church or interested in promoting any Church or religion. I am not interested in following the teachings of men. I have only ever pointed people to God's Words because this is where you will find Jesus. If you with an honest heart want to know the truth of God’s Word, Jesus promises you that “If any man wills to do his will He shall know of the doctrine whether it is of God or not.” (John 7:17) But this promise is conditional on finding Jesus through His Word. (Isa 55:6-7; Isa 29:11-13; Matt 6:33; John 14:26; 16:13)

I have to leave now but thought I would leave you with some more of God's Words for you to consider. Here is 100 fun facts backed up with God’s Word regarding God’s Sabbath and Sunday observance. Have fun now.

1. After working the first six days of the week in creating this earth, the great God rested on the seventh day. (Genesis 2:1.3.)

2.
This stamped that day as God’s rest day, or Sabbath day, as Sabbath day means rest day. To illustrate: When a person is born on a certain day, that day thus becomes his birthday. So when God rested upon the seventh day, that day became His rest, or Sabbath, day.

3.
Therefore the seventh day must always be God’s Sabbath day. Can you change your birthday from the day on which you were born to one on which you were not born? No. Neither can you change God’s rest day to a day on which He did not rest. Hence the seventh day is still God’s Sabbath day.

4.
The Creator blessed the seventh day. (Genesis 2:3.)

5.
He sanctified the seventh day. (Exodus 20:11.)

6.
He made it the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:1-3.)

7.
It was made before the fall; hence it is not a type; for types were not introduced till after the fall.

8.
Jesus says it was made for man (Mark 2:27), that is, for the race, as the word man is here unlimited; hence, for the Gentile as well as for the Jew.

9.
It is a memorial of creation. (Exodus 20:11; 31:17.) Every time we rest upon the seventh day, as God did at creation, we commemorate that grand event.

10.
It was given to Adam, the head of the human race. (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3.)

11.
Hence through him, as our representative, to all nations. (Acts 17:26.)

12.
It is’ not a Jewish institution, for it was made 2,300 years before ever there was a Jew.

13.
The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Men should be cautious how they stigmatize God’s holy rest day.

14.
Evident reference is made to the Sabbath and the seven-day week all, through the patriarchal age. (Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10-12; 29:27-28.etc.)

15.
It was a part of God’s law before Sinai. (Exodus 16:4, 27-29.)

16.
Then God placed it in the heart of His moral law. (Exodus 20:1-17.) Why did He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be immutable?

17.
The seventh-day Sabbath was commanded by the voice of the living God. (Deuteronomy 4:12-13.)

18.
Then He wrote the Commandment with His own finger. (Exodus 31:18.)

19.
He engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. (Deuteronomy 5:22.)

20.
It was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. (Deuteronomy 10:1-5.)

21.
God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. (Exodus 34:21.)

22.
God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. (Ezekiel 20:12-13.)

23.
It is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from false gods. (Ezekiel 20:20.)

24.
God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews would keep the Sabbath (Jeremiah 17:24-25.)

25.
He sent them into the Babylonish captivity for breaking it. (Nehemiah 13:18.)

26.
He destroyed Jerusalem for its violation. (Jeremiah 17:27.)

27.
God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it. (Isaiah 56:6-7.)

28.
This is in the prophecy, which refers wholly to the Christian dispensation. (See Isaiah 56.)

29.
God has promised to bless all who keep the Sabbath. (Isaiah 56:2.)

30.
The Lord requires us to call it “honourable.” (Isaiah 58:13.) Beware, ye who take delight in calling it the. “old
Jewish Sabbath,” “a yoke of bondage,” etc.

31.
After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down “many generations,” it is to be restored in the last days. (Isaiah 58:12-13.)

32.
All the holy prophets kept the seventh day.

33.
When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. (Luke 4:16; John 15:10.) Thus He followed
His Father’s example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

34.
The seventh day is the Lord’s Day. (See Revelation 1:10; Mark 2:28; Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:10.)

35.
Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28), that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her (1 Peter 3:6.)

36.
He vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man’s good. (Mark 2:23-28.)

37.
Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, He carefully taught how it should be observed. (Matthew 13:1-13.)

38.
He taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was “lawful” (Matthew 12:12.)

39.
He instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection. (Matthew 24:20.)

40.
The pious women who had been with Jesus carefully kept the seventh day after His death. (Luke 23:56.)

41.
Thirty years after Christ’s resurrection, the Holy Spirit’ expressly calls it “the Sabbath day,” (Acts 13:14.)

42.
Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the “Sabbath day” in A.D. 45. (Acts 13:27.) Did not Paul know? Or shall we believe modern teachers, who affirm that it ceased to be the Sabbath at the resurrection of Christ?

43.
Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the “Sabbath day.” (Acts 13:44.)

44.
The Gentile converts called it the Sabbath. (Acts 13:42.)

45.
In the great Christian council, A.D. 49. In the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the “Sabbath day.” (Acts 15:21.)

46.
It was customary to hold prayer meetings upon that day. (Acts 16:13.)

47.
Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on that day. (Acts 17:2-3.)

48.
It was his custom to preach upon that day. (Acts 17:2-3.)

49.
The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. (See Acts 13:14, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4. 11.)

50.
There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that the Christians still observed the same day that the Jews did.

51.
In all their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with disregarding the Sabbath day. Why did they not, if he did not keep it?

52.
But Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. “Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple,nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.” Acts 25:8. How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath?

53.
The Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament fifty-nine times, and always with respect, bearing the same title it had in the Old Testament, “the Sabbath day.”

54.
Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament about the Sabbath’s being abolished, done away, changed, or anything of the kind.

55.
God has never given permission to any man to work upon it. Reader, by what authority do you use - the seventh day for common labor?

56.
No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day. Find one case of that kind, and we will yield the question. Why should modern Christians do differently from Bible Christians?

57.
There is no record that God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the seventh day.

58.
As the Sabbath was kept in Eden before the fall, so it will be observed eternally in the new earth after the restitution. (Isaiah 66:22-23.)

59.
The seventh-day Sabbath was an important part of the law of God, as it came from His own mouth, and was written by His own finger upon stone at Sinai. (See Exodus 20.) When Jesus began His work, He expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.” Matthew 5:17

60.
Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same tune they made void one of the Ten Commandments by their tradition. The keeping of Sunday is only a tradition of men.

61. The very first thing recorded In the Bible is work done on Sunday, the first day of the week. (Genesis l: l-5.) The Creator Himself did this. If God made the earth on Sunday, can it be wicked for us to work on Sunday?

62.
God commands men to work upon the first day of the week. (Exodus 20:8-11.) Is it wrong to obey God?

63.
None of the patriarchs ever kept it.

64.
None of the holy prophets ever kept it.

65.
By the express command of-God, His holy people used the first day of the week as a common working day for 4,000 years, at least.

66.
God Himself calls it a “working” day. (Ezekiel 46:1.)

67.
God did not rest upon it.

68.
He never blessed it.

69.
Christ did not rest upon it.

70.
Jesus was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), and worked at His trade until He was thirty years old. He kept the Sabbath and worked six days in the week, as all admit. Hence He did many a hard day’s work on Sunday.

71.
The apostles worked upon it during the same time.

72.
The apostles never rested upon it.

73.
Christ never blessed it.

74.
It has never been blessed by any divine authority.

75.
It has never been sanctified.

76.
No law was ever given to enforce the keeping of it, hence it is no transgression to work upon it. “Where no law
is, there is no transgression.” Romans 4:15 (See also 1 John 3:4.)

77.
The New Testament nowhere forbids work to be done on it.

78.
No penalty is provided for its violation.

79.
No blessing is promised for its observance.

80.
No regulation is given as to how it ought to be observed. Would this be so if the Lord wished us to keep it?

81.
It is never called the Christian Sabbath.

82.
It is never called the Sabbath day at all.

83.
It is never called the Lord’s day.

84.
It is never called even a rest day.

85.
No sacred title whatever is applied to it. Then why should we call it holy?

86.
It is simply called “first day of the week.”

87.
Jesus never-mentioned it in any way, never took its name upon His lips, so far as the record shows.

88.
The word Sunday never occurs in the Bible at all.

89.
Neither God, Christ, nor inspired men ever said one word in favour of Sunday as a holy day.

90.
The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in all the New Testament. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2,9;
Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2.)

91.
Six of these texts refer to the same first day of the week.

92.
Paul directed the saints to look over their secular affairs on that day. (1Corinthians 16:2.)

93.
In all the New Testament we have a record of only one religious meeting held upon that day, and even this was a night meeting. (Acts 20:5-12.)

94.
There is not intimation that they ever held a meeting upon it before or after that.

95.
It was not their custom to meet on that day.

96.
There was no requirement to break bread on that day.

97.
We have an account of only one instance in which it was done. (Acts 20:7.)

98.
That was done in the night-after midnight. (Verses 7-11.) Jesus celebrated it on Thursday evening (Luke 22),
and the disciples sometimes did it every day (Acts 2:42-46.)

99.
The Bible nowhere says that the first day of the week commemorates the resurrection of Christ. This is a tradition of men, which contradicts the law of God. (Matthew 15:1-9.) Baptism commemorates the burial and resurrection of Jesus. (Romans 6:3-5.)

100.
Finally, the New Testament is totally silent with regard to any change of the Sabbath day or any sacredness for the first day.

God Bless you all I have to really go now bb, I may not be back for a while but will pop in when I can

if your going to copy and paste someone elses work please make it known as it is plagiarism and infringes on copyright issues.. to present someone elses work as your own

in this case i'll do it for you.
the info on this page came from https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-r...00-amazing-facts-about-the-sabbath-and-sunday
 
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prodigal

Guest
#67
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

its not hard to search a topic in google and find verses to support a view wether that view is right or wrong,
as an example i just googled verses that suggest the world is flat and got lots of results https://www.openbible.info/topics/flat_earth

when the woman was caught in adultery i am sure a quick google search would have shown the due scriptural puishment as clearly shown in the ot, but hang on Jesus didn't support that finding. was he being unbiblical or was he making a point that they were missing. and as for sabbath day never being broken in ot, with gods permission, well what about the 7 day march around Jericho, no break for sabbath there.. as for me i think everyday should be a sabbath to the lord, it was the levites busiest day and us as priests of god surely should try and live every day like it was dedicated to the lord.
 
Jun 5, 2017
3,675
56
0
#68
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello good friends, how are you?

It seems some people do not understand plagiarism and copyright laws. This is for you?

used for the purpose of non-commercial scholarly commentary or criticism in accordance with section 107 of the US Copyright Laws


Now who is going to use the Word of God instead of throwing stones? You are upset because I share the Word of God?

God bless you
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
#69
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello good friends, how are you?

It seems some people do not understand plagiarism and copyright laws. This is for you?

used for the purpose of non-commercial scholarly commentary or criticism in accordance with section 107 of the US Copyright Laws


Now who is going to use the Word of God instead of throwing stones? You are upset because I share the Word of God?

God bless you
That is beside the point!
Forum rules require you to acknowledge your sources - this you have not done!
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#70
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello good friends, how are you?

It seems some people do not understand plagiarism and copyright laws. This is for you?

used for the purpose of non-commercial scholarly commentary or criticism in accordance with section 107 of the US Copyright Laws


Now who is going to use the Word of God instead of throwing stones? You are upset because I share the Word of God?

God bless you
lol Get used to it mate, The old distract and side step the issue. they can't look at it or they will have to change their ideas.
 
Jun 5, 2017
3,675
56
0
#71
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

That is beside the point!
Forum rules require you to acknowledge your sources - this you have not done!
Hi GraceandPeace,

Thankyou very kindly. I was genuinely unaware of the forum rule. Let me make my corrections.

Post 35 "TORAH definition section" This is from Wiki and Judaism 101

Post 52 "100 Sabbath and Sunday Facts" is from a Reprinted tract published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association about the year 1885 (mainly scriptures)

Posts 59-60 "The Shadow Sabbaths of Colossians 2:17" scripture discourse I found after some earlier posts that I thought would be helpful as it is mainly scripture. This is from biblelight

God bless you


 
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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#72
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a link to Proclamation! magazine which is geared toward addressing Seventh Day Adventists and their bad doctrines:

Proclamation Magazine

Here's a link to the book Sabbath in Christ which addresses the faulty arguments concerning Colossians 2:16-17 that Seventh Day Adventists have proposed, which claims the weekly Sabbath isn't included in the items listed:

Sabbath in Christ

Again, notice that the Seventh Day Adventist spammed this thread with a list of 100 reasons why the Sabbath still applies. I could refute these but it would take hours. He knows that when he posts such a list, and it is simply a tactic to make it look like his view has more biblical support. I would be glad to talk to anyone one-on-one about the claims he is making.

Also, note that he doesn't identify with the Seventh Day Adventists, but it's obvious from his remarks that he is SDA. That is part of their tactics..they don't identify themselves outright. Many times, the circulars they mail out don't identify them as Seventh Day Adventists because many know they are cultic and avoid them for that reason. I have talked to quite a few people who have went to prophecy seminars and they don't learn until the end of the seminar that the sponsors are Seventh Day Adventists. This is deception and unbecoming of someone claiming to be a Christian.

He is also advertising his own website on this forum and that is against the rules. It has been reported and I encourage others to report it.
Let me simplify it for you so that you don't have to answer heaps of questions.

Show from the first witness/Old Testament where the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with altogether.

As Jesus and the apostles in all the NT backed their teachings with evidence form the OT.

That should not take much time.
 
Jun 5, 2017
3,675
56
0
#73
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Let me simplify it for you so that you don't have to answer heaps of questions.

Show from the first witness/Old Testament where the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with altogether.

As Jesus and the apostles in all the NT backed their teachings with evidence form the OT.

That should not take much time.
Great point Gotime,

I think many people do not realize that everything in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament especially the Gospel. God never changes. Sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). It is thee reason God destroyed the world accept for 8 people with a flood. It is the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed and are warnings for God's people in the last days. James clearly tells us the if we break one of God's 10 commandments we are guilty of breaking all of His laws and are guilty towards God (James 2:10). This is why God is calling his people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:23)..... God's Sheep hear His Voice.

All we need to ask ourselves is how many commandments are in God's 10 commandments? Happy Sabbath everyone from my end of the World. Only wishing you all love and joy and peace in the Holy Ghost and the presence of God. To Him who loved us and washed us in His own Blood be the Glory forever and ever. AMEN

God bless you all
 
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Jun 5, 2017
3,675
56
0
#74
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

It would behoove you to post the link or book where you got all this information, and the copy and pastes in your other posts. Because, the way it stands, you have stolen someone's intellectual property, and have published it as though you wrote it. (Its the reason I always make a note of whether I have written something, and if I have based a post on something someone else has written.)

It is called plagiarism, and you could be taken to court for doing it. Of course, it would require the original author to go after you, and perhaps your SDA has allowed people to copy and paste its material in order to convert people to their false teachings.

However, that is still intellectually unethical, because it leaves everyone in the forum thinking you have written something when you have not. I guess you could call that "lying" or "bearing false witness." You know, one of the commandments you say it is so important to follow. But no, only keeping the Sabbath counts, not whether you lie to someone to convert them to your heretical beliefs, right? Oh, and stringing together a lot of copy and pastes, with a few words of your own does not make it your intellectual property, ok?


PS. You keep saying you are going to go, too busy, life calls, but you keep coming back with these copy and pastes. You are establishing an atmosphere of distrust. I now no longer believe anything you say! And that is not a loss, I think!

Hello Angela,

The post you were referring to above is my own work from my own Bible study with Jesus so no link is required.

However, It was brought to my attention that one of the Forum rules requires links to be provided from other work used in posts. This I was not aware of. I have used other references in parts and full in other posts. I have corrected this mistake and provided all references I have used in this thread in Post 71 for your interest. Everything else is my own study of God's Word.

God bless you
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#75
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Let me simplify it for you so that you don't have to answer heaps of questions.

Show from the first witness/Old Testament where the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with altogether.

As Jesus and the apostles in all the NT backed their teachings with evidence form the OT.

That should not take much time.
Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17 make days and meats a non-isssue and the attempt to claim Commandments = TEN COMMANDMENTS or LAW is faulty. You KNOW nomos does not equal Ten Commandments exclusively.

No one keeps all of Torah so "Torah observers" are making false claims.

SDAs define the Law as the Ten Commandments but reach into the Book of the Covenant to claim it is a sin to eat unclean meat. Additionally they claim drinking any alcohol is sin but where do they get that from? Sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments according to them so where does that fit?

A Seventh Day Adventist on this site claims it's blasphemous to claim Jesus drank wine. Hilarious. Next thing you know he will claim eating meat arouses lust. His prophetess believed that. And don't eat ketchup either...or spices. Or don't eat vegetables and fruit in the same meal. And coffee isn't allowed either.

And neither is cheese. It's really bad for you.

And certain races of mankind reflect animal-like appearances, and vice versa, because men bred with animals before the flood (amalgamation).

Ellen G. White taught all of this.

And it's ok to abort your offspring because they aren't living beings until they take their first breath. Your friendly Seventh Day Adventist health care facility is glad to do that for you. As long as it meets man's legal requirements.

Ellen G. White DIDN'T teach this because she wasn't dumb enough, or immoral enough, to do that. But the Seventh Day Adventist organization is.


But worship God on a different day and you're a sinner. Right. Hilarious.

And you as a Seventh Day Adventist pastor turn a blind eye to the abortion nonsense. You have told me in effect it's up to the woman and her doctor. I couldn't do that. God is going to hold pastors accountable for their part in those murders if they played any role in encouraging them.
 
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prodigal

Guest
#76
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello good friends, how are you?

It seems some people do not understand plagiarism and copyright laws. This is for you?

used for the purpose of non-commercial scholarly commentary or criticism in accordance with section 107 of the US Copyright Laws


Now who is going to use the Word of God instead of throwing stones? You are upset because I share the Word of God?

God bless you

we are not all in usa,

Definitions
The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines ‘plagiarism’ as ‘to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own: to use (another's production) without crediting the source: to commit literary theft : to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source’1. This implies an element of dishonesty, as it involves the stealing or deception of work or ideas. However The Oxford English Dictionary is more general. There, ‘plagriarize’ is defined as ‘take and use (another’s writing’s etc.) as one’s own2‘. This does not necessarily involve any intent to deceive.


rules of site Any material posted that is not original to that post (copied from another web page or printed source) will have appropriate foot noting crediting the original source. If the material is original to you but has been copied from or posted on another web page please reference that page to eliminate the possibility of someone mistakenly accusing you of plagiarism. Plagiarism is a criminal offense and posts not following this policy will be removed. Multiple offenses by the same user will result in removal


Exception: Bible verses. We all know you didn't write the Bible but we do ask that the copyright policy of the individual translation be followed.
 
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prodigal

Guest
#77
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

hebrews roots.jpg ..................................
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#78
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

This thread wasn't about Seventh Day Adventists but since they want to insert themselves into the discussion here is a good summary of the inconsistencies of SDAs. While loudly proclaiming the need to keep the Sabbath and defining non observance as sin they are performing abortions for their membership and the general public in their health care facilities.

Abortion in Adventism

My understanding is that their theology denies the baby is human before drawing his first breath so it's not murder in their eyes.

For members, they specify abortion can be performed for reasons of rape, incest or congenital deformities including Down's syndrome children.

For non-members any legal reason is sufficient.

I used to think abortion for reason of rape or incest was ok but now I don't think so. I never thought abortion for congenital birth defects was ok. Now I don't think any viable pregnancy should be terminated and as a believer I would play NO ROLE in encouraging it. If I was a pastor I would fear Gods disciplining on this and the judgment to come.

Yet gotime has told me, in essence, it's between the woman and her doctor.

I find it ironic and inconsistent that SDAs claim to be such ardent defenders of "Gods laws" but are fine with hacking a living being up in the womb.

And, lest I've mistaken, I love Gods laws myself...those that apply to ME TODAY. I have no more sensitivity to the Sabbath than my physical uncircumcision. It's not relevant as I am not a member of the Mosaic Covenant and neither sign applies to me.

The Sabbath as well as physical circumcision were signs of the covenant between God and Israel analogous to the wedding ring and wedding ceremony. Physical circumcision signified the one-time entrance into the Covenant relationship and the Sabbath was the continuing "remenbrance" sign.

I'm not a member of the Mosaic Covenant so I don't keep its signs. I keep the signs of the New Covenant which are baptism and the Lords Supper. Baptism is the one time entrance sign and the Lords Supper is the continuing remembrance sign.

Additionally read Hosea 2. God took away Israel's Sabbath and festivals as a punishment for their unfaithfulness. Ask yourself; if these things were moral laws would he take them away? In effect he was saying, take off my ring, you whore, you are no longer my wife.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#79
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Originally Posted by LoveGodForever




Now who is going to use the Word of God instead of throwing stones? You are upset because I share the Word of God?



That is beside the point!
Forum rules require you to acknowledge your sources - this you have not done!
Don't you just love the spiritual manipulation attempt when they say things like in brown above. Another favorite one of these sects is to accuse Christians - Why don't you believe the word of God? Don't you love Jesus? Why are you so against the word of God?

This is all "code" for - if you don't believe what I am telling you - you are against the word of God and against Jesus Himself. It's a form of spiritual witchcraft and is a work of the flesh. Gal 5:19-20

These Judaizers that come in and say that we must keep the Sabbath as in the law of Moses are distorting the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and are replacing Jesus Himself for their law-keeping.

Paul said that he didn't stand for this for even one hour so that the truth would remain in the Galatians. They were "bewitched" by these people saying we need to follow the law now of which the Sabbath Day keeping is part of it. Christ has fulfilled that and He is our true Sabbath rest.

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#80
Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's another inconsistency.

SDAs and Torah observers will both use verses that state Gods law is forever but both recognize the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer there so the Mosaic Covenant cannot be kept. Additionally they refer to verses that say God never changes to support their point.

Note the verses say God never changes; not that He doesn't change the way he works with mankind. Therefore the claims they make in this regard are incoherent.

However if one takes the position that there are moral and spiritual principles that underlay the entire Mosaic Covenant, which compose "Gods law" this is coherent. The specific applications given to ancient Israel may not apply, but the underlying moral and spiritual principles do apply.

The Mosaic Covenant was a basket of Commandments, some of which reflected righteous behavior and some of which reflected shadows and types of Christ and redemption.

One good example is the unclean laws. Some think it is a moral issue to eat unclean meats. Uncleanness was a physical type of immorality and not immorality itself. For instance Paul used it in that way when he said not to have intimate fellowship with unbelievers and to come out from amongst them. What fellowship has Christ with Belial?

But all the Judaizer will see is the unclean meat law and not that it was a type of immorality and not immorality itself. And, they don't see that some of the unclean laws are related to the Fall of mankind in the Garden and the Curse. Most unclean animals are associated with death which is part of the Curse. That's why touching a dead body was unclean. It wasn't because of hygiene or health although there may have been a secondary benefit in that regard. It is because of the Creation, Fall, Rescue (Christ), Restoration narrative that Judaizers are oblivious to. I want to explain that in more detail to a receptive audience but I'm not sharing with Judaizers as they will simply scoff. I don't dwell in their two dimensional world of caricatures and if I don't stoop to their level they get angry.

Judaizers are unwilling or unable to see the shadows and types and live in the realm of shadows and types instead of reality. They prefer their shadows and types and judge Spirit led Christians for not living in their two dimensional universe. That's the essence of Judaizers. No, thanks.. I lived in your two dimensional world for a long time. Keep sucking your bottles, wearing diapers, and judging others as less mature or sinners.

Judaizers, live in your two dimensional world.

For those who want to escape the two dimensional world of Judaizers I recommend Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses by Vern Poythress.

Have a good day :)