TRIBULATION LIE
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Well, ekklesia, which means 'called out ones', 'assembly', is what was translated 'church' in english. So, I see the body of the Christ and church being the same thing.
But dispensationialists think that since the word 'church' isn't found in the OT or after Revelation 4:1, it means the church is solely from Pentecost until Revelation 4:1. Ugh. That makes the Revelation 4:1 until chapter 19 irrelevent to the church. Another ugh!!
So, to keep the confusion down, I try to use 'body of the Christ' when speaking of the ekklesia.
But dispensationialists think that since the word 'church' isn't found in the OT or after Revelation 4:1, it means the church is solely from Pentecost until Revelation 4:1. Ugh. That makes the Revelation 4:1 until chapter 19 irrelevent to the church. Another ugh!!
So, to keep the confusion down, I try to use 'body of the Christ' when speaking of the ekklesia.
In Agreement
Neither Titus nor Valerian sought the destruction of the temple. It happened both against their will and against their orders.
The rebellion of 'the Jews' in 70 AD was political not religious. God did NOT intervene in behalf of the rebels.
If Jesus had reigned for the first ten centuries the World would now be a very different place.
Neither Titus nor Valerian sought the destruction of the temple. It happened both against their will and against their orders.
The rebellion of 'the Jews' in 70 AD was political not religious. God did NOT intervene in behalf of the rebels.
If Jesus had reigned for the first ten centuries the World would now be a very different place.
No, those are symbolic expressions found in several other places in the OT. These "cosmic distrubances" are used when foretelling divine wrath coming to wipe out a nation. You will find similar language used to describe the destruction of Egypt, Edom, Israel at the hands of Babylon and Babylon itself at the hands of the Medes and Persians. So when Jesus uses this language in the NT, He's telling us that Israel will once again be destroyed and made desolate, just as before.
My interpretation is solid and you will find nothing in scripture to dispute it. It is the only interpretation that harmonizes all prophesy.
You can accuse me, guilty as charged. I am a partial preterist and say that with pride. Nearly every prophesy in the Bible has been fulfilled.
The second advent happened at the fall of Jerusalem (66-70 AD). This event was called the "parousia" or presence of Christ. Christ's presence was there in 70 AD to execute His judgment wrath upon apostate Israel and especially those false religious leaders of that day. This should not be a shock to those who really know and understand the Bible. John the Baptist foretold this in Mt 3 and Jesus foretells it in Lk 19, 21, Mt 24, 26, etc, etc. All of this happened in the first century to THAT GENERATION just as Christ said it would.
The issue of glorified bodies is a most difficult topic for most to grasp. They read 1 Cor 15 or 1 Thes 4 and think they see a physical change of human mortal bodies into spiritual immortal bodies. Sadly, this is carnal thinking. Something much more important happened. What happened was the "restoration of all things" which is another concept lost of the vast majority of believers. To understand this issue, you must first understand what punishment was really dealt out at the Garden when Adam and Eve fell.
You need to understand what God meant when he told them, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Did they literally die on that day? Of course not, however, they died spiritually on that day. Spiritual death is separation from God. Christ began to restore this spiritual death on the Cross and completed it in 70 AD with the destruction of the Law and old covenant and birth of the Messianic (Church) age.
What I have just told you is far above the intellectual capacity (or willingness) of the vast majority of milk drinking believers to comprehend. Because they can't (or won't) believe that just about everything they thought was wrong, they resort to mocking. If you are genuinely interested in learning the deeper spiritual truths regarding these issues, by all means I'm here to help. If you wish to mock, please don't waste my time.
The second advent happened at the fall of Jerusalem (66-70 AD). This event was called the "parousia" or presence of Christ. Christ's presence was there in 70 AD to execute His judgment wrath upon apostate Israel and especially those false religious leaders of that day. This should not be a shock to those who really know and understand the Bible. John the Baptist foretold this in Mt 3 and Jesus foretells it in Lk 19, 21, Mt 24, 26, etc, etc. All of this happened in the first century to THAT GENERATION just as Christ said it would.
The issue of glorified bodies is a most difficult topic for most to grasp. They read 1 Cor 15 or 1 Thes 4 and think they see a physical change of human mortal bodies into spiritual immortal bodies. Sadly, this is carnal thinking. Something much more important happened. What happened was the "restoration of all things" which is another concept lost of the vast majority of believers. To understand this issue, you must first understand what punishment was really dealt out at the Garden when Adam and Eve fell.
You need to understand what God meant when he told them, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Did they literally die on that day? Of course not, however, they died spiritually on that day. Spiritual death is separation from God. Christ began to restore this spiritual death on the Cross and completed it in 70 AD with the destruction of the Law and old covenant and birth of the Messianic (Church) age.
What I have just told you is far above the intellectual capacity (or willingness) of the vast majority of milk drinking believers to comprehend. Because they can't (or won't) believe that just about everything they thought was wrong, they resort to mocking. If you are genuinely interested in learning the deeper spiritual truths regarding these issues, by all means I'm here to help. If you wish to mock, please don't waste my time.
For those with open eyes and hearts not shut by the multitude of lies they've heard since childhood, consider this.
It took 40 years for the Israelites to fully receive the promises (covenant) given to their father, Abraham once they left Egypt. They had to first wonder in the wilderness for 40 years because of sin, right? Well, in 30 AD Christ made a new covenant (with many) for forgiveness of sins and eventual restoration of the separation from God. It took 40 years to fully implement this new covenant as well. Coincidence? I think not.
You see until the Temple was destroyed (which also ended sacrifices and the Levitical system under the Law), the new way could not be fully implemented. There was and needed to be a transition period and as it turns out, also took 40 years. All those religious leaders who sinned against Christ needed to die off just as the case was for the doubters in Moses' day.
Christ's presence (parousia) returned in the sky above Israel and specifically Jerusalem to end the Law (which included the Temple which was where God resided and did reside until the Cross). This residence is now set up in each of our hearts as we have become the new temple of the living God with each of us making up a "stone" called by a new name ("Christian"). We are all part of the New Kingdom not made with hands which will never be destroyed. This is not a future event which many think doesn't happen until the "millennium," it is ongoing right now!!
Christ had the keys to death (spiritual separation from God) and Hades. He freed the saints who were locked there until the restoration of all things. He restored the separation that existed (death) between us and God. This happened in the first century and it happened in the invisible (to us) spiritual realm. No longer when we die do our souls go to Hades to await this restoration. Instead, they immediately go to heaven where we receive our spiritual bodies just as Christ received His when He returned to heaven.
Since Christ's assention, He now appears (to mortals) as a bight light, as bright as the sun. Paul can attest to that. This brightness is indicated in Rev 18:1 when Christ's presence returned and was seen in the Temple as recorded by Josephus. Christ's presence from the temple lit up the entire night sky. I'm not making this up, it is an historical fact. It was then that Babylon (Apostate Jerusalem) fell.
It took 40 years for the Israelites to fully receive the promises (covenant) given to their father, Abraham once they left Egypt. They had to first wonder in the wilderness for 40 years because of sin, right? Well, in 30 AD Christ made a new covenant (with many) for forgiveness of sins and eventual restoration of the separation from God. It took 40 years to fully implement this new covenant as well. Coincidence? I think not.
You see until the Temple was destroyed (which also ended sacrifices and the Levitical system under the Law), the new way could not be fully implemented. There was and needed to be a transition period and as it turns out, also took 40 years. All those religious leaders who sinned against Christ needed to die off just as the case was for the doubters in Moses' day.
Christ's presence (parousia) returned in the sky above Israel and specifically Jerusalem to end the Law (which included the Temple which was where God resided and did reside until the Cross). This residence is now set up in each of our hearts as we have become the new temple of the living God with each of us making up a "stone" called by a new name ("Christian"). We are all part of the New Kingdom not made with hands which will never be destroyed. This is not a future event which many think doesn't happen until the "millennium," it is ongoing right now!!
Christ had the keys to death (spiritual separation from God) and Hades. He freed the saints who were locked there until the restoration of all things. He restored the separation that existed (death) between us and God. This happened in the first century and it happened in the invisible (to us) spiritual realm. No longer when we die do our souls go to Hades to await this restoration. Instead, they immediately go to heaven where we receive our spiritual bodies just as Christ received His when He returned to heaven.
Since Christ's assention, He now appears (to mortals) as a bight light, as bright as the sun. Paul can attest to that. This brightness is indicated in Rev 18:1 when Christ's presence returned and was seen in the Temple as recorded by Josephus. Christ's presence from the temple lit up the entire night sky. I'm not making this up, it is an historical fact. It was then that Babylon (Apostate Jerusalem) fell.
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Hello SovereignGrace,
First of all, the OT saints are not apart of the church. Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." The words "I will build" are in the future tense. You can't build something that already exists. You can add on to it, but it would be improper to say "I will build" if it is already existing.
Secondly, the word Ekklesia/church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and in those same chapters you will not find the word Hagios/Saints. From chapter 4 onward the word Ekklesia/church abruptly drops out of use and only the word Hagios translated as Saints is used. He who has ears to hear, let him understand what the Spirit is saying.
This use and disuse of these words are very significant, i.e. it is not a coincidence that only the word Ekklesia is used throughout the first three chapters and then abruptly disappears from the rest of the book. It is a clue from God for those who have understanding. Unfortunately, those who don't have understanding, attempt to discredit those who do in these matters and so are not able to be taught.
The reference to Hagios/saints is referring to the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This group is not the church. The very fact that they are being introduced and the elder is asking John "these in white robes who are they and where did they come from" demonstrates that they are not the church, but another group. Furthermore, the fact that John says that he doesn't know who they are would also support the fact that this group is not the church.
Regarding these the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." This would also demonstrate that this group is not the church and that because the great tribulation is the last the 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which is well into the seals and trumpets, which are God's wrath and which the church is not appointed to suffer.
How does it make it irrelevant to the church, because we will not experience those things? It is relevant to the church because the individuals within the church are the ones who are supposed to be studying this book and warning the rest of the unbelieving world of God's coming wrath, which is what a good majority of the book of Revelation is about, i.e. "the things that must soon take place," as mentioned in Rev.1:1.
Those who have received Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The events which take place after chapter 4 are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is going to carry out His wrath. Because of the characteristics previously mentioned and the fact that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church cannot enter into that time of wrath, which is why the word Ekkesia is missing from chapter 4 onward.
Anyone who believes that God is going to send His church through His wrath, does not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment and has forgotten that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
The Lord said, "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial," not during or through, but the Greek word is ek "out of." Which means that the church will not even be exposed to that time of God's tribulation/wrath.
The Lord's reference to that hour of tribulation coming upon the "whole inhabited world" infers that what is coming will affect everyone on the planet. There will be nowhere to hide, nowhere to escape.
The Lord's promise to gather those who believe in Him and to take them back to the Father's house to those places that He has prepared for us as described in John 14:1-3, will take place prior to that first seal being opened, which will be followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The church is that army following Christ out of heaven riding on those white horses and wearing the fine line, white and clean that she, the bride, will have received in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb, as described in Rev.19:6-8, 14.
First of all, the OT saints are not apart of the church. Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." The words "I will build" are in the future tense. You can't build something that already exists. You can add on to it, but it would be improper to say "I will build" if it is already existing.
Secondly, the word Ekklesia/church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and in those same chapters you will not find the word Hagios/Saints. From chapter 4 onward the word Ekklesia/church abruptly drops out of use and only the word Hagios translated as Saints is used. He who has ears to hear, let him understand what the Spirit is saying.
This use and disuse of these words are very significant, i.e. it is not a coincidence that only the word Ekklesia is used throughout the first three chapters and then abruptly disappears from the rest of the book. It is a clue from God for those who have understanding. Unfortunately, those who don't have understanding, attempt to discredit those who do in these matters and so are not able to be taught.
The reference to Hagios/saints is referring to the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This group is not the church. The very fact that they are being introduced and the elder is asking John "these in white robes who are they and where did they come from" demonstrates that they are not the church, but another group. Furthermore, the fact that John says that he doesn't know who they are would also support the fact that this group is not the church.
Regarding these the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." This would also demonstrate that this group is not the church and that because the great tribulation is the last the 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which is well into the seals and trumpets, which are God's wrath and which the church is not appointed to suffer.
How does it make it irrelevant to the church, because we will not experience those things? It is relevant to the church because the individuals within the church are the ones who are supposed to be studying this book and warning the rest of the unbelieving world of God's coming wrath, which is what a good majority of the book of Revelation is about, i.e. "the things that must soon take place," as mentioned in Rev.1:1.
Those who have received Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The events which take place after chapter 4 are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is going to carry out His wrath. Because of the characteristics previously mentioned and the fact that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church cannot enter into that time of wrath, which is why the word Ekkesia is missing from chapter 4 onward.
Anyone who believes that God is going to send His church through His wrath, does not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment and has forgotten that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
The Lord said, "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial," not during or through, but the Greek word is ek "out of." Which means that the church will not even be exposed to that time of God's tribulation/wrath.
The Lord's reference to that hour of tribulation coming upon the "whole inhabited world" infers that what is coming will affect everyone on the planet. There will be nowhere to hide, nowhere to escape.
The Lord's promise to gather those who believe in Him and to take them back to the Father's house to those places that He has prepared for us as described in John 14:1-3, will take place prior to that first seal being opened, which will be followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The church is that army following Christ out of heaven riding on those white horses and wearing the fine line, white and clean that she, the bride, will have received in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb, as described in Rev.19:6-8, 14.
Is this another Preterist fancy? What evidence do you have that "Christ's presence (parousia) returned in the sky above Israel"? The only things that happened 40 years after the crucifixion were the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and Judea, and the dispersion of the Jews to the four corners of the earth.
And what evidence do you have from Scripture that it was "the Temple which was where God resided and did reside until the Cross"?
The Temple and the Levitical priesthood had become thoroughly corrupt, and a den of thieves, and God was not resident there because He was walking on earth at that time as Jesus of Nazareth.
Christians dying for their faith, now is referred as rapture. Trouble is, until we are free from the spirit of fear we cant think of being dead with Christ: rejected by the world and put to death. The spirit of fear has no trouble being taken out of trouble it's even poetic. I admit having trouble as well and we should, until we are perfect in Love we are not free from fear. It sais "The beast will cause every one who does not worship it to be put to death," doesn't mean it will succeed. Except those days be shortened no flesh would be saved, but for the elect sake those days will be shortened." "Those who endure until the end will be saved," "To make our calling an election Shure. "The end: dying for our faith or the Lord returns. "Behold I am with you always even to the end of the world." Seeing Him with us: believing He is with us is the power we need to die and live with Him. Having forsaken everyone and everything and our own life, following in "the fellowship od His suffering," we could be cough up to God while on the earth. This view of Rapture, John who wrote the book of Revelation experienced as one of the elect who did not die for His faith. Paul sais, "you have not hindered me at all, I die daily." We understand that both of these had died willingly to their life, "They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, by the Word of their testimony and they loved not their life as much as to shrink from death."
When did Paul write to Timothy, before or after 70 AD?
Paul also wrote the below to Titus:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Notice that Paul instructs Titus how to live IN THEIR PRESENT AGE? Notice also that Paul tells Titus to "(look) for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ?" Was Titus to look for an event that would not come for another 2,000+ years? Were those words meant for Titus, the addressee of Paul's letter or were they meant for a 62 year old 21st century Canadian man who Paul never met? AUDIENCE INTEGRITY PEOPLE!!!
When was the end of their age? Did their age end in the first century or are we still living in the same age that they were? According to the write of Hebrews, their age was about to end when Christ put away sin on the Cross.
"...but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The disciples knew this and associated the end of the temple with the end of the age which was also when Christ's presence was to return. These three events were related and linked in the same time period, THEIR GENERATION.
Mt 24: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your Presence (parousia), and of the end of the age?”
Notice that they did not ask when Christ would visibly return but instead they asked for the signs of HIS PRESENCE? I say again, the parousia (or presence) of Christ returned prior to 70 AD and remained to execute judgment on apostate Israel. Josephus records Christ presence perhaps without even realizing he was doing it. See "War of the Jews" Book 6, Chapter 5:
"...at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple...
For those who aren't farmers, a heifer is a young cow over one year old that has not produced a calf. So why is this heifer giving birth to a Lamb? What or who could cause a light to shine inside the temple prior to it's destruction that was so bright that it lit up the night sky?
Rev 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightilywith a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...
First century Jerusalem was Babylon the great harlot. There really can be no debate about this.
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See my post #599 above. Josephus also records a heavenly army above Israel and all her cities. This from the same chapter cited in my post above.
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
There is absolutely no doubt that Christ's presence returned in the first century and was there in Jerusalem as the temple and city were being destroyed.
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
There is absolutely no doubt that Christ's presence returned in the first century and was there in Jerusalem as the temple and city were being destroyed.