TRIBULATION LIE

[heartofdavid]

Hello heartofdavid!

That verse does not say that there is no man in heaven! Here is the verse in a couple different translations:

New International Version
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

New Living Translation
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll and read it.

English Standard Version
And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,

Berean Study Bible
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.

Berean Literal Bible
And no one in heaven, nor upon the earth, nor under the earth, was able to open the scroll, nor to see it.

New American Standard Bible
And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.

King James Bible
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or even to look in it.

International Standard Version

Therefore, the verse is not stating that there is no man in heaven, but that no one in heaven, nor on the earth nor under the earth, will be able to open the scroll. In addition, you have 24 elders mention sitting on thrones, which would be referring to resurrected men.

Let's research these things before making these claims, heartofdavid.

I meant,the only WORTHY man,not that we don't all know it is a no brainer that there are indeed others there.

The point is,Jesus was THE man ,WORTHY TO OPEN THE SEALS.

I never meant ANY man would open it. I think you are streatching that out for some reason,because It is saying MAN.

Here it is since you seem to want to contend over flyspecks;

[h=2]Transliteration[/h][FONT=&quot]oudeis;[/FONT]
[h=2]Strong's Definitions[/h][FONT=&quot]oo-dice'; including feminine οὐδεμία, oo-dem-ee'ah; and neuter οὐδέν, oo-den'; from (3761) (οὐδέ) and (1520) (εἱ̑ς); not even one (man, woman or thing), i.e. none, nobody, nothing: — any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, thing), nought.

[/FONT]
[h=2]KJV Translation Count — 236x[/h][FONT=&quot]The KJV translates Strongs H1 in the following manner: no man (94), nothing (68), none (27), no (24), any man (3), any (3),man (2), neither any man (2), misc 1(3)

So yes even if you think you corrected me,"no one" or "no man" is still "NO MAN",and ANY STUDY proves that out.
The point is,Jesus is the kinsman redeemer of Ruth.

That is WHY IT HAD TO BE A MAN to open the seals. (our kinsman redeemer.)

Let's research these things before making these claims, heartofdavid

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Yes lets do so,since nobody else has taken the time to tie in the kinsman redeemer of Ruth.

It is clear "man " is valid.

 

[heartofdavid]

Rapture is a lie . God never said, nor Christ, that he would deliver anyone from the Tribulation of Antichrist. . God said however all the word is going into captivity to Satan. You dont know that, means you did not read the bible..

Rapture is easy for people to define, because they make it up in their own mind as they go, and just repeat each others lies . God doesn't like liars no matter what they think they are. Christians are held to a higher degree of accountability .

Too broad.

I suspect you are out of gas,since your verses were cherry picked and debunked.

 

[heartofdavid]

Man is used in the King James or Elizabethan English to mean mankind.


Like Star Trek "where no man has gone before" it means the same as "where no one has gone before"

Thank you.

Yes it is a no brainer.

 

[OtherWay210]

2 Thessalonians 2, is outlines in simply language, the order of events. Antichrist comes first, then Christ after. There is no gathering to Christ until after the son of perdition, Satan, stands in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ.

The reference in Matthew 24, is related in the other gospels, Christ says, He will Not return, until After the false Christ is here first. Christ going so far as to beat the point ( If anyone says here is christ or there, do not go, for false Christs and false prophets Shall rise ) Shall means shall.

Will Christians believe it ? The answer is many will according to Revelation, most of the worlds Christians will, because of false teachings such rapture.


2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for ((((that day shall not come, except)))
there come a (((falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; )))


Christ's own words :

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Rapture teaches quite the opposite of what Jesus taught . I rather go with Christs'teachings . Not mans false dreams and visions .

Rapture teaches, theres not going to be a captivity to Satan , everything's going to be fine, you're going to rapture away into oblivion .

 

[Ahwatukee]

2 Thessalonians 2, is outlines in simply language, the order of events. Antichrist comes first, then Christ after. There is no gathering to Christ until after the son of perdition, Satan, stands in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ.

Just like so many, you're not paying close enough attention to the scripture, which I've provided below:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Verse 1 starts out with "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him." Then in verse 2 Paul refers to "the day of the Lord," which is referring to the time of God's wrath, which follows the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. Everywhere you read in the OT regarding "the day of the Lord" it is referring to the time of God's coming wrath. The gathering of the church is not "the day of the Lord," but what initiates it.

The on-going error is that people read this scripture and they don't differentiate between "the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord." They think of them as the same thing, but in verse 3, Paul is referring to "the day of the Lord" which takes place after our being gathered to him.

In further support of this, here is the rest of the context:

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival. "

So, the restrainer is currently holding back the full force of sin and keeping the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. That Restrainer is none other than the Holy Spirit working through the church. When the restrainer is removed, so is the church and then that lawless one will be revealed. Therefore, the order of events is as follows:

1. The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him

2. The rebellion

3. The man of lawlessness is revealed

4. The day of the Lord, God's wrath

That day (the day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

The problem is that you and others need to separate "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him" from "the day of the Lord." As long as you continue to not take this into account, the scripture looks like it is saying first the rebellion takes place, followed by the man of lawlessness being revealed, followed by the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him. That version however doesn't match with verses 5 thru 8.

 

[heartofdavid]

Hi everyone,

Here is what is going yo happen next: When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him.

Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

Yours,

Deade

No,the patriarchs were raised from the dead alongside Jesus.

The firstfruits.

Harvest is 4 parts.
The rapture follows firstfruits. ( main harvest)

The patriachs are there as a part. Part of the bride.
In heb 11 it says "....that they,without us, are not fulfilled"

 

[heartofdavid]

2 Thessalonians 2, is outlines in simply language, the order of events. Antichrist comes first, then Christ after. There is no gathering to Christ until after the son of perdition, Satan, stands in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ.

The reference in Matthew 24, is related in the other gospels, Christ says, He will Not return, until After the false Christ is here first. Christ going so far as to beat the point ( If anyone says here is christ or there, do not go, for false Christs and false prophets Shall rise ) Shall means shall.

Will Christians believe it ? The answer is many will according to Revelation, most of the worlds Christians will, because of false teachings such rapture.


2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for ((((that day shall not come, except)))
there come a (((falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; )))


Christ's own words :

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Rapture teaches quite the opposite of what Jesus taught . I rather go with Christs'teachings . Not mans false dreams and visions .

Rapture teaches, theres not going to be a captivity to Satan , everything's going to be fine, you're going to rapture away into oblivion .

Read mat 25, sprinkle in liberally all the pretrib rapture verses, and stop cherry picking for protection of doctrine.

Yes indeed,leave our verses out and poooof!!!
Your deal works just fine....in your circles

 

[heartofdavid]

Yes, I think God would like us all to have a care free life but he is also trying to teach us important things isn't he? People tend to learn by experience and he is training us up to be fit for eternity.

Only the bride is taken.
Mat 25
The foolish also were there with the bride,but were not worthy.
Jesus said, "pray that you be counted worthy to escape the things about to come...."

 

[MatthewG]

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, is already here now with us. - The Holy Bible has been completed.
(Has Jesus Christ returned?)

I do not believe anyone on this planet is really going to suffer tribulation, like the Apostles, and believers that where way before we were here.

I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to destory the world.

Anyone who believes in God has it made because of, the Lord Jesus Christ, thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. (I understand that in other countries however there are people that may end up killing human beings for gang related reasons and these things go on every day, any country.) (Nothing new under the sun)

But the point is that we have access to the Lord Jesus Christ, and direct access to the Father, to talk to them who care about everything that goes on in our lives daily.

Love God, and Love others.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is Jesus Christ's Kingdom that of Heaven? Doesn't the (Holy spirit) Kingdom of Heaven/God dwell with in us because of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[heartofdavid]

None of these verses, nor all of them together, prove a pre-trib rapture.
I think the wiggle may be on your part when you try to make them prove what they do not.

All those verses are something postribs see as a joke,and we that believe Jesus' soon coming are held in contempt.

Amazing how you guys resist the obvious

 

[heartofdavid]

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, is already here now with us. - The Holy Bible has been completed.
(Has Jesus Christ returned?)

I do not believe anyone on this planet is really going to suffer tribulation, like the Apostles, and believers that where way before we were here.

I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to destory the world.

Anyone who believes in God has it made because of, the Lord Jesus Christ, thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. (I understand that in other countries however there are people that may end up killing human beings for gang related reasons and these things go on every day, any country.) (Nothing new under the sun)

But the point is that we have access to the Lord Jesus Christ, and direct access to the Father, to talk to them who care about everything that goes on in our lives daily.

Love God, and Love others.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is Jesus Christ's Kingdom that of Heaven? Doesn't the (Holy spirit) Kingdom of Heaven/God dwell with in us because of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Let your study form your belief.
Your end times view effects practically all your doctrine,and even your world view.

Ask yourself why the NT Begins with a miracle at a wedding,and ends with a call to the bride.

THE ENTIRE NT FRAMED IN BRIDE<>BRIDEGROOM

 

[heartofdavid]

I know,i know.


Lets wait for the inevitable. " no that wedding miracle is not exactly at the front"

 

[heartofdavid]

Your statement that it is imminent ignores II Thess. 2:3 & 4, and calls Paul a liar.

Really?
Could someone post those post trib verses that you reference? I am on my phone.

And maybe post one post trib rapture verse.
I have never seen one in 41 years of study

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Let your study form your belief.
Your end times view effects practically all your doctrine,and even your world view.

Ask yourself why the NT Begins with a miracle at a wedding,and ends with a call to the bride.

THE ENTIRE NT FRAMED IN BRIDE<>BRIDEGROOM

Hang on there, I understand the importance of the Bride/Bridegroom theme but The NT begins with the genealogy of Yeshua.

 

[heartofdavid]

Absolutely true. The Anti Christ must be revealed first.

6 He will be 60 years old when he takes power but will appear as if he is in his mid 30's
6 He will be the 6th Anti Christ
6 Power Point countries will he be in his coalition.

Oh,ok, i see yiur post trib rapture non reference.

Well,that is just postrib workbook echoing.

I believe either one works just fine.
In fact i lean towards all of us arrested and imprisoned in huge facilities.
Then about the time you guys start chiding in with " ha!where is your crummy rapture mess now?"
Right about then,we go. Only the bride,no mockers

 

[heartofdavid]

Hang on there, I understand the importance of the Bride/Bridegroom theme but The NT begins with the genealogy of Yeshua.

Begins with the virgin birth,or advent of the savior,but his ministry begins at a wedding.

 

[heartofdavid]

If you study the Jewish wedding,there is the betrothal, ( Joseph and Mary).

Our betrothal with Jesus originated at the last supper.

The point is the wedding dynamic is stsrt to finish in the NT.

This hidden nugget is my theme of all study.
It is heavens obsession.
Not trib,not suffering, not destruction of the planet, not the beast or his number or mark.

The bride and groom

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Begins with the virgin birth,or advent of the savior,but his ministry begins at a wedding.

[h=1]Matthew 1(NIV)[/h][h=3]The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah[/h][FONT=&quot]1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaac the father of Jacob,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perez the father of Hezron,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hezron the father of Ram,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Ram the father of Amminadab,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Amminadab the father of Nahshon,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nahshon the father of Salmon,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Obed the father of Jesse,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 and Jesse the father of King David.


And so on.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

[h=1]Matthew 1(NIV)[/h][h=3]The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah[/h][FONT=&quot]1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaac the father of Jacob,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perez the father of Hezron,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hezron the father of Ram,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Ram the father of Amminadab,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Amminadab the father of Nahshon,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nahshon the father of Salmon,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Obed the father of Jesse,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 and Jesse the father of King David.


And so on.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Technically I 10 does not touch the water at either end,but we still say it extends coast to coast.
I can imagine some taking issue with it.

But if you really,really want to get tech with it,the NT didn't begin where you contend it does. Read heb 9.
The testiment begins at the death of the testator.

I said the NT begins and ends with the wedding dimension.
(That would be the union of mary with the Holy Spirit,and ending with the HOLY SPIRIT SAYING "THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME LORD JESUS".

Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. His last miracle likewise,will be at a wedding.

 

[heartofdavid]

I know,i know.


Lets wait for the inevitable. " no that wedding miracle is not exactly at the front"

No joke.....