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T
Brad,
I was and do think soberly sir. Stop retreating to more conservative doctrine, when you are confronted with truth. You have stated many times on many different threads grace covers it all and is all you need. You have a very liberal approach to doctrine. You are contradicting yourself again, just like on other threads.
You have outright dismissed many portions of the Bible, because according to your liberal theology, it does not apply to you or the believer today. Your very interpretation of Jude leaves no question you have a liberal bias towards theology and have identified with the hyper grace message.
I fully know how to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
I was and do think soberly sir. Stop retreating to more conservative doctrine, when you are confronted with truth. You have stated many times on many different threads grace covers it all and is all you need. You have a very liberal approach to doctrine. You are contradicting yourself again, just like on other threads.
You have outright dismissed many portions of the Bible, because according to your liberal theology, it does not apply to you or the believer today. Your very interpretation of Jude leaves no question you have a liberal bias towards theology and have identified with the hyper grace message.
I fully know how to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
And sin is...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Paul agrees...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So, help me out here, are the Commandments in effect or are they just optional. Just nice principles that maybe someone should consider?
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Paul agrees...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So, help me out here, are the Commandments in effect or are they just optional. Just nice principles that maybe someone should consider?
B
The commandments were given to those who had been brought out of the land of Egypt, the house of bondage in (Exodus 20) and as far as I know they were God's people, the children of Israel in (Exodus 1:1-13. 3:15). All the commandments (including the other nine) seemed to be fulfilled through the love of God operating in the heart of the NT believer by faith through the filling and fruit of the Spirit and not according to the flesh or any works of the flesh.
B
The commandments are all fulfilled through the royal law of love that comes through the operation of the Spirit in the heart of the NT believer. There are those that want these commandments to be kept, but the believer is kept by the power of God through the Spirit to prevent the lust of the flesh from being fulfilled. The power of God through the Spirit fulfills the law through the love of God operating in the heart motivating the believer. The law is fulfilled by the believer when he is kept by the power of God through the Spirit and the law hangs upon this fact which we have in Christ.
C
What of the times when he is not kept by the power of God through the Spirit? When the Christian sins, can it not then be said that the Spirit failed to keep the Christian by the power of God?
Then again, if it is us who are judged according to our deeds, then is it not us who keep the Law of Love and not the Spirit who keeps us from not fulfilling that Law?
I have read most of your posts here and agree with quite a bit of what you say. But, if we are to keep the royal Law of Love, and it is us who face the consequences of breaking that Law, then it cannot be that it is the Spirit who keeps us from walking contrary to that Law, but our unwillingness to hearken to His lead by which we fail to uphold that Law.
Then again, if it is us who are judged according to our deeds, then is it not us who keep the Law of Love and not the Spirit who keeps us from not fulfilling that Law?
I have read most of your posts here and agree with quite a bit of what you say. But, if we are to keep the royal Law of Love, and it is us who face the consequences of breaking that Law, then it cannot be that it is the Spirit who keeps us from walking contrary to that Law, but our unwillingness to hearken to His lead by which we fail to uphold that Law.
Ah, but I think he is. And by the way, there is an obligation in the New Testament to keep the Sabbath...
Christ said to keep the Commandments.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Paul said to keep the Commandments...
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
And the writer of Hebrews specifically tells us to keep the Sabbath...
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
What rest? Verse 4 the Sabbath rest. And now verse 9
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
The word for rest here is Sabbatismos, in every other case in this chapter, the word is either katapauo or katapausis, but in verse 9 the word is Sabbatismos and it means keeping the Sabbath. The Diaglott makes it clear...
Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.
If you have an Oxford KJV Bible you will find this in the margin "a keeping of Sabbath." It means exactly what it says, a keeping of the seventh day Sabbath.
Christ said to keep the Commandments.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Paul said to keep the Commandments...
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
And the writer of Hebrews specifically tells us to keep the Sabbath...
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
What rest? Verse 4 the Sabbath rest. And now verse 9
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
The word for rest here is Sabbatismos, in every other case in this chapter, the word is either katapauo or katapausis, but in verse 9 the word is Sabbatismos and it means keeping the Sabbath. The Diaglott makes it clear...
Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.
If you have an Oxford KJV Bible you will find this in the margin "a keeping of Sabbath." It means exactly what it says, a keeping of the seventh day Sabbath.
C
If you would, allow me to render the Greek and grammar structure of Hebrews 4:9.
If you would, let us take one verse pertaining to "sabbath" at a time and dissect it and agree upon its meaning before we involve any other verses pertaining to "sabbath? Is that agreeable to you?
Greek:
Heb 4:9 αραG686 PRT - (therefore) απολειπεταιG620 V-PPI-3S - (is left behind) σαββατισμοςG4520 N-NSM - (a sabbatism) τωG3588 T-DSM λαωG2992 N-DSM - (for the people) τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM - (of the God)
Heb 4:9 Therefore, a sabbatism is left behind (is left) for the people of God.
Notes:
As you mentioned, this is the only occurrence for G4520 (sabbatismos).
The verb is present passive indicative. Meaning: the nominative (sabbatism) recieved an action and the consequence of that action is for the now.
You said that the Diaglott renders that verse as:
What needs to be agreed upon by us:
1) This is the only occurance of the word in all of Scripture.
2) That being so, then we need to keep it contextul with the rest of Hebrew 4.
3) At the start of every discussion pertaining to a verse with "sabbath", we will use the Greek to come to a little more proper rendering.
4) Before we move on to another verse, we must agree at the end of a discussion about the currect verse.
5) The beginning of our conversation will start with the chapter of Hebrews 4.
6) etc....what you wish to add.....
If you would, let us take one verse pertaining to "sabbath" at a time and dissect it and agree upon its meaning before we involve any other verses pertaining to "sabbath? Is that agreeable to you?
Greek:
Heb 4:9 αραG686 PRT - (therefore) απολειπεταιG620 V-PPI-3S - (is left behind) σαββατισμοςG4520 N-NSM - (a sabbatism) τωG3588 T-DSM λαωG2992 N-DSM - (for the people) τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM - (of the God)
Heb 4:9 Therefore, a sabbatism is left behind (is left) for the people of God.
Notes:
As you mentioned, this is the only occurrence for G4520 (sabbatismos).
The verb is present passive indicative. Meaning: the nominative (sabbatism) recieved an action and the consequence of that action is for the now.
You said that the Diaglott renders that verse as:
Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.
Notes on the Diaglott:
This rendering has the nominative unacted upon (leaves out the passive). Therefore, by grammical rules, it is not rendered properly.
This rendering has the nominative unacted upon (leaves out the passive). Therefore, by grammical rules, it is not rendered properly.
What needs to be agreed upon by us:
1) This is the only occurance of the word in all of Scripture.
2) That being so, then we need to keep it contextul with the rest of Hebrew 4.
3) At the start of every discussion pertaining to a verse with "sabbath", we will use the Greek to come to a little more proper rendering.
4) Before we move on to another verse, we must agree at the end of a discussion about the currect verse.
5) The beginning of our conversation will start with the chapter of Hebrews 4.
6) etc....what you wish to add.....
L
It is something that I ask should we keep the commandments and the only one he disputes is the sabbath. This is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by saying we are not required to keep part of God's law.
1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV
(19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
The sabbath is included in the commandments of God.
1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV
(19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
The sabbath is included in the commandments of God.
L
Hebrews 4:9 KJV
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
Thayer Definition:
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4521
G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
Thayer Definition:
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H7676
Hebrews 4:9 confirms that the sabbath remains.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
Thayer Definition:
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4521
G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
Thayer Definition:
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H7676
Hebrews 4:9 confirms that the sabbath remains.
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B
If we sin by giving into the flesh, we confess our sin to God who is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from the unrighteousness of the sin we have committed. When God forgives and cleanses us, is not that being kept by the power of God through the Spirit of grace instead of being judged for our sin according to the law? Christ paid for the sin that the law would judge me for and not only did Christ pay with his blood but was also judged for my sin through death on my behalf. The law can do nothing but condemn us for our sin but Christ gives us grace and restores us so we can rebound. For me to try and keep the law is futile because I will fail through the weakness of my own flesh and that is a definite. So I learn to be led of the Spirit and continue to receive grace so that I won't fulfill the lust of the flesh but instead being filled with the love of God in the power of the Spirit. This is how we walk in love as dear children.
C
Before we start, I would like to say that I neither condemn nor condone those who keep the physical Sabbath or those who don't keep the Sabbath, with the understanding that when it comes to holy days and food, we do according to conscious.
If we look at the next verse:
Heb 4:10 seeing that the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, just as God from His own.
Notes:
1) What is a sabbatism?
2) Why was a sabbatism left behind for the people of God?
3) What is being said about a sabbatism?
If we look at the next verse:
Heb 4:10 οG3588 T-NSM -(the one) γαρG1063 CONJ -(seeing) εισελθωνG1525 V-2AAP-NSM -(having entered) ειςG1519 PREP -(into) τηνG3588 T-ASF καταπαυσινG2663 N-ASF -(the rest (repose)) αυτουG846 P-GSM -(His) καιG2532 CONJ -(also) αυτοςG846 P-NSM -(he) κατεπαυσενG2664 V-AAI-3S -(rested) αποG575 PREP -(from) τωνG3588 T-GPN εργωνG2041 N-GPN -(the works) αυτουG846 P-GSM -(his) ωσπερG5618 ADV -(just as) αποG575 PREP -(from) τωνG3588 T-GPN ιδιωνG2398 A-GPN -(His own) οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM -(the God)
Heb 4:10 seeing that the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, just as God from His own.
Notes:
1) What is a sabbatism?
Verse 10 tells us that it is a rest from one's own works, just as God rested from His and was His Sabbath.
2) Why was a sabbatism left behind for the people of God?
Verse 8 tells us that Jesus offers a sabbatism and if we enter into His offered rest, v10, then we also rest from our works and obtain a sabbath from our works, as v3 tells us that we do enter (present indicative) into rest.
3) What is being said about a sabbatism?
V10 tells us that God has His Sabbath and v8 tells us that Jesus offers a sabbatism to us. If it is speaking about God having a Sabbath and Jesus offering a sabbatism, then it is speaking about us obtaining a sabbath in the same manner as God has a Sabbath.
L
First while I keep the sabbath of the Lord the 7th day I do not keep the ceremonial sabbaths. The word rest in verse 9 is the only place in the Bible it is found and is referring to the 7th day sabbath. There are other types of rest in Christ and the rest to come when He returns but the rest in verse 9 is the 7th day sabbath as shown in my previous post.