Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

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Depleted

Guest
#81
#81
wwjd_kilden said:
we are not to take away from the bible, and the verse says God loved THE WORLD
are you going to say He did not? Does your bible say this verse should not be there? does your bible say "God loved the people in the world who believed in him?"
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Does your bible only say that one verse? Keep reading. God DOES tell the people's reaction. And then he tells what he does despite the people's reaction. John 3:16 is only an excuse when you ignore the context.

You've been sold a bag of goods if you do not understand 16 in its place in a fuller discourse.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#83
Aug 28, 2012
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#83
lets say that the chosen elect theory it right. Why did he choose me? what makes me more special or worthy than another sinner? I was a sinner lost in my own desires just much as anyone else. I refuse to see myself as chosen and more worthy than even the most wicked of people because that is not what love is and that is not the eyes I seek to see through.

I know there is no limits he won't go for us and that there is no cost to great no pain to severe and no distance he won't go so that we might choose to come into his warm and loving arms and so in the same way this is how I will be as well. If the chosen or the elect are chosen before hand and others not then what he did on the cross was pointless
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#84
#84
I guess I am predestined to hell then, since I don't share your view?
 
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Depleted

Guest
#85
#85
Blain said:
but whats election grounded in??? ME and MY response or God and his ACT?[ Both my friend:)
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Really? Did Trump just get elected by his response and action, or was he elected the old-fashioned way -- many visits to a voting booth? Pulling the lever got him elected.

Unlike us, God sees why we shouldn't be voted in... and yet votes us in anyway. God's not conned. He knows we don't deserve it.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#86
#86
Blain said:
So if God gives us the choice to accept him or not and some of us absolutely refuse and won't be saved you don't want to serve him? How can we blame God for the poor decisions of ourselves? He gives us the free choice not because he isn't in control or couldn't make us serve him but in his love he gives his children the freedom to choose. Do you have any idea how badly his heart aches all the time? I mean it's one thing for us as humans and as parents to lose a child but how much greater must it hurt for the original parent to see his children choose to refuse his arms and burn in hell?

if election is true then so is predestination which would mean he made some of us to burn in hell no matter what in which case why do we as believers even bother to go to the extremes to save a soul? it goes against his nature to have made and formed every one of us in the womb with such tender care and detail even to a single strand of hair on our heads if some were only made to burn
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God did give us a choice. And we all made the same choice, to stay in the darkness to hide our sin. (John 3:16-21) THAT is CHOICE! And then God overruled some of those choices.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#87
Jun 24, 2011
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#87
wwjd_kilden said:
we are not to take away from the bible, and the verse says God loved THE WORLD
are you going to say He did not? Does your bible say this verse should not be there? does your bible say "God loved the people in the world who believed in him?"
Click to expand...
God surely loved the world enough to send His Son to die for it.

But that doesn't nullify election. Otherwise election wouldn't be in the bible. There would be no distinction between Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, or Flesh and Spirit.

I know its hard to wrap our minds around. It will probably be something that we will come to know the answers to on the other side of eternity.

Some verses I am not able to explain properly. But I always lean towards Gods Sovereignty and Power when I don't quite understand. Never towards our decisions and work.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#88
Aug 28, 2012
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#88
Depleted said:
Really? Did Trump just get elected by his response and action, or was he elected the old-fashioned way -- many visits to a voting booth? Pulling the lever got him elected.

Unlike us, God sees why we shouldn't be voted in... and yet votes us in anyway. God's not conned. He knows we don't deserve it.
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Then tell me why were you chosen among all the other sinners to be saved? what made you more worthy than any other person? none of us deserved anything good has given us not a single one of us and none of us are more worthy than another because we all have sinned and fallen short we all screw up and have both light and darkness in us.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#89
#89
Blain said:
it isn't God that rejects us we reject him. I don't believe in election or predestination when it comes to being saved because i saw how far Jesus was willing to go for the sake of even the worst of us, this made me seek a kind of love with him for him and for all others that is so deep and so rich that I would be willing to burn in the very fires of hell itself for a time just for the sake of one lost soul no matter how evil their hearts or how blood stained their souls.

This is the love I saw in him and is the love I know is in his heart and believe me when I say he would be willing to go even further. Love will go to the extreme of extremes for even the worst of people this is why I stand where I do on this subject
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Both election and predestination are biblical but you won't believe them because you saw something?

NOT good!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#90
Jul 3, 2015
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#90
Blain said:
lets say that the chosen elect theory it right. Why did he choose me? what makes me more special or worthy than another sinner? I was a sinner lost in my own desires just much as anyone else. I refuse to see myself as chosen and more worthy than even the most wicked of people because that is not what love is and that is not the eyes I seek to see through.

I know there is no limits he won't go for us and that there is no cost to great no pain to severe and no distance he won't go so that we might choose to come into his warm and loving arms and so in the same way this is how I will be as well. If the chosen or the elect are chosen before hand and others not then what he did on the cross was pointless
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You must never see the propitiatory sacrifice Jesus made on the cross out of His great love for us as pointless, Blain, regardless of how we may not see how God works in the lives of those who remain unsaved. For one thing, we are told they at one time knew but turned away from the Truth. They became lovers of the world and not of the Word. That was a choice they made. God revealed Himself to me multiple times before I could surrender my opposition to Him. The natural man opposes the Spiritual things of God. We know that Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. According to Scripture, that is all of us. How do we respond?
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#91
#91
Grandpa said:
God surely loved the world enough to send His Son to die for it.

But that doesn't nullify election. Otherwise election wouldn't be in the bible. There would be no distinction between Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, or Flesh and Spirit.

I know its hard to wrap our minds around. It will probably be something that we will come to know the answers to on the other side of eternity.

Some verses I am not able to explain properly. But I always lean towards Gods Sovereignty and Power when I don't quite understand. Never towards our decisions and work.
Click to expand...
but then why all the warnings about being led astray by false teachers? If we are predestined, it won't matter what we hear or do, as we go to heaven / hell no matter what else happens.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#92
Aug 28, 2012
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#92
Depleted said:
God did give us a choice. And we all made the same choice, to stay in the darkness to hide our sin. (John 3:16-21) THAT is CHOICE! And then God overruled some of those choices.
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I know what this says 1 Timothy 2:4 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I doubt the word all means some
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#93
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#93
Depleted said:
Both election and predestination are biblical but you won't believe them because you saw something?

NOT good!
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What is it you think I mean when I saw that love and why does that discredit anything?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#94
Jul 3, 2015
56,003
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#94
John 3:21 does not say nobody chose to come into the light.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen
plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#95
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#95
Magenta said:
You must never see the propitiatory sacrifice Jesus made on the cross out of His great love for us as pointless, Blain, regardless of how we may not see how God works in the lives of those who remain unsaved. For one thing, we are told they at one time knew but turned away from the Truth. They became lovers of the world and not of the Word. That was a choice they made. God revealed Himself to me multiple times before I could surrender my opposition to Him. The natural man opposes the Spiritual things of God. We know that Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. According to Scripture, that is all of us. How do we respond?
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I see, ty for the correction my friend:)
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#96
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#96
Blain said:
lets say that the chosen elect theory it right. Why did he choose me? what makes me more special or worthy than another sinner? I was a sinner lost in my own desires just much as anyone else.
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He chose you of His own will, not because of any worthiness in you.'


I refuse to see myself as chosen and more worthy
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you may be chosen but you are not more worthy.

than even the most wicked of people because that is not what love is and that is not the eyes I seek to see through.
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who are you to say what His love is? He loves those whom He has chosen because He loved them.. Why He loved them He does not choose to say,. It was certainly not because of anything in them,

I know there is no limits he won't go for us and that there is no cost to great no pain to severe and no distance he won't go so that we might choose to come into his warm and loving arms
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So He fails??

and so in the same way this is how I will be as well. If the chosen or the elect are chosen before hand and others not then what he did on the cross was pointless
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Because the cross was necessary for them to be saved.,

I do not understand it, but I accept His word not my puny thoughts.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#97
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#97
Blain said:
I know what this says 1 Timothy 2:4 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I doubt the word all means some
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In context it means all, both powerful and lowly. Not all absolutely.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#98
Aug 28, 2012
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#98
valiant said:
He chose you of His own will, not because of any worthiness in you.'


you may be chosen but you are not more worthy.



who are you to say what His love is? He loves those whom He has chosen because He loved them.. Why He loved them He does not choose to say,. It was certainly not because of anything in them,



So He fails??



Because the cross was necessary for them to be saved.,

I do not understand it, but I accept His word not my puny thoughts.
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God is not a respecter of persons and he is a kind and loving father and a loving father doesn't have two children treasures and loves one but hates and discards another. And as for who am I top say what love it? I can say what love is because I have seen known and was shown and taught what love is. Above all other things what I sought after in him was love what love really is what it means to be love to know love to see through loves eyes and to have a heart that is deeply enriched in love.
And in my searching for this answer he more than fulfilled my request.

And you are right I am not more worthy none of us are and no he did not fail we did it isn't God's fault that we choose to reject him
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#99
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
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#99
valiant said:
In context it means all, both powerful and lowly. Not all absolutely.
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True not absolutely because some of us will continue to reject him but the point is that the motive in his heart was for all his children to come to him not just a chosen few
 
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Depleted

Guest
#100
#100
Blain said:
lets say that the chosen elect theory it right. Why did he choose me? what makes me more special or worthy than another sinner? I was a sinner lost in my own desires just much as anyone else. I refuse to see myself as chosen and more worthy than even the most wicked of people because that is not what love is and that is not the eyes I seek to see through.

I know there is no limits he won't go for us and that there is no cost to great no pain to severe and no distance he won't go so that we might choose to come into his warm and loving arms and so in the same way this is how I will be as well. If the chosen or the elect are chosen before hand and others not then what he did on the cross was pointless
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A couple decides to adopt a baby. What is wrong with all the other children they could have chosen? In reality, there is nothing better or worse about the others. And, because they are human, they will pick whichever one they consider is "the best" on limited experience. (The kid is a baby. Who knows if that child becomes Mother Theresa or Charles Manson?)

God knows us completely and chose us. Not because we deserved it any more than anyone else, but because of his love and mercy. He even tells us he picks the foolish to confound the wise in the world, so he does have criteria. We're the worst of the worst. Works for me. In the real world the worst of the worst never gets picked. AND they only get worser. God takes the worst of the worst and changes them into the best -- into who he is.

Are you going to deny the adoption just because you had no say in the outcome? Particularly since you can't get a better outcome. I really would like God to choose all.

I've also had to learn to live with he won't. He chose me. That will have to be enough until he can explain himself better. It will probably have to be enough even after that, because he already explained himself perfectly.
 
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