Unconditional Election or Conditional Election
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I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.
Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen
Right? Every move of the atom and every individual to be as is.
Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen
Right? Every move of the atom and every individual to be as is.
D
It means this:
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238
Context alone (and all of scripture for full context) renders the definition of the word, not merely what you want it to say in any particular spot. That you decide it means "every single one" doesn't change that. If it did, then by your very definition Jesus walked on every square inch of Judea because he walked it "all."
How about once in a while taking God at his word instead of trusting "all" the teaching you get on this site? Really. Feel free to do a word study on all too, if that works for you.
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238
Context alone (and all of scripture for full context) renders the definition of the word, not merely what you want it to say in any particular spot. That you decide it means "every single one" doesn't change that. If it did, then by your very definition Jesus walked on every square inch of Judea because he walked it "all."
How about once in a while taking God at his word instead of trusting "all" the teaching you get on this site? Really. Feel free to do a word study on all too, if that works for you.
D
I already answered this in general, but I will answer for myself for reality.
Because I royally suck, I'm utterly foolish, I'm as stupid and pigheaded as everyone often thinks I am, and YET, God, in his mercy and love, and through true justice, picked me to be all-fair/drop-dead gorgeous.
Confounding? Ain't it?
Only something God can pull off.
Because I royally suck, I'm utterly foolish, I'm as stupid and pigheaded as everyone often thinks I am, and YET, God, in his mercy and love, and through true justice, picked me to be all-fair/drop-dead gorgeous.
Confounding? Ain't it?
Only something God can pull off.
According to you I don't take God at his word yet other say different, I take God at his word but that doesn't mean I take what you say it says. it isn't enough to just know the scriptures if you don't also take into account who God is. the scriptures are very deep they have many many layers and sometimes to truly understand them you have to have a an understanding of his heart his nature his way of seeing things his ways of thinking his ways of being.
None of can fully know this of course but when we have a close and intimate bond with him he reveals his nature and his heart to us and when we know this of him and add it to the scriptures it can reveal things to us we might not have seen or known before. it isn't just the scriptures that i say what I say about election it's what I know of his heart and who he his as well
None of can fully know this of course but when we have a close and intimate bond with him he reveals his nature and his heart to us and when we know this of him and add it to the scriptures it can reveal things to us we might not have seen or known before. it isn't just the scriptures that i say what I say about election it's what I know of his heart and who he his as well
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D
I was reacting to this:
Sooo, you're skipping part of the bible, because you prefer another part? Not good. It's all in there. It's God's word -- singular, not plural. All of it is one thing God wants us to know.
Remember when I told you it was hard for me to write and keep all parts of storytelling up in the air? It felt like I was juggling too many balls at once? God's word is like that too. God tells us he loves the whole world. He tells us he hates Esau. How do the two go hand in hand? Can they?
They HAVE to or God is a liar. That we have trouble wrapping our heads around the whole thing doesn't make the whole thing wrong. It means we have trouble wrapping our heads around it all. We cannot Cannot CANNOT chose which balls to keep juggling and which balls to drop. It is far better to keep recognizing we dropped an important ball. It is all important. All of it in the sense you think "all means all" in 1 Tim. all.
Just because we don't get it, you don't then argue against it. You're doing just that when you said
The only way to take that is you don't believe something in the bible. I'm not letting you off the hook for that one. It's either all or nothing!
I do get you don't get it all. I don't either. But never EVER deny belief in something God said because it's hard (if not impossible) to understand.
First, keep studying and more and more of it makes sense. Second, realize it will never make complete sense because the finite cannot understand the infinite. And third, stop arguing a point until you have some handle on the point.
When you start saying "I don't believe" something that is clearly biblical, it scares me terribly. This is what I fear for you hanging out on this site to much. You will learn stubbornness beyond measure and become just as pigheaded as the people you trust to teach you.
Use this site to get ideas to study. Don't use it as your study aid. Too much crap is taught as gospel on here. Don't absorb the crap so much that you feel free to "don't believe in election or predestination." That is soooo NOT good!!!
Sooo, you're skipping part of the bible, because you prefer another part? Not good. It's all in there. It's God's word -- singular, not plural. All of it is one thing God wants us to know.
Remember when I told you it was hard for me to write and keep all parts of storytelling up in the air? It felt like I was juggling too many balls at once? God's word is like that too. God tells us he loves the whole world. He tells us he hates Esau. How do the two go hand in hand? Can they?
They HAVE to or God is a liar. That we have trouble wrapping our heads around the whole thing doesn't make the whole thing wrong. It means we have trouble wrapping our heads around it all. We cannot Cannot CANNOT chose which balls to keep juggling and which balls to drop. It is far better to keep recognizing we dropped an important ball. It is all important. All of it in the sense you think "all means all" in 1 Tim. all.
Just because we don't get it, you don't then argue against it. You're doing just that when you said
The only way to take that is you don't believe something in the bible. I'm not letting you off the hook for that one. It's either all or nothing!
I do get you don't get it all. I don't either. But never EVER deny belief in something God said because it's hard (if not impossible) to understand.
First, keep studying and more and more of it makes sense. Second, realize it will never make complete sense because the finite cannot understand the infinite. And third, stop arguing a point until you have some handle on the point.
When you start saying "I don't believe" something that is clearly biblical, it scares me terribly. This is what I fear for you hanging out on this site to much. You will learn stubbornness beyond measure and become just as pigheaded as the people you trust to teach you.
Use this site to get ideas to study. Don't use it as your study aid. Too much crap is taught as gospel on here. Don't absorb the crap so much that you feel free to "don't believe in election or predestination." That is soooo NOT good!!!
D
You are right. God doesn't hate any of his children.
What you're missing is all human beings aren't God's children. He adopts his children.
Gal. 4:[FONT="]4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.[/FONT]
What you're missing is all human beings aren't God's children. He adopts his children.
Gal. 4:[FONT="]4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.[/FONT]
it's easy to make the mistake of thinking that someone rejects part of the bible when in reality they just think it isn't syaing what the person thinks it is. The word of God is either 100% true or not at all if we reject one part but accept another then what is the point? I don't reject the word I simply think it doesn't mean what some say it does there is a difference
But you must admit that the word "world" has many different uses in the NT.
Sometimes it means the population of the roman empire, sometimes it means the evil society sometimes it means the planet, sometimes it means the specific period of time in history, sometimes it means simply "human race"...
Sometimes it means the population of the roman empire, sometimes it means the evil society sometimes it means the planet, sometimes it means the specific period of time in history, sometimes it means simply "human race"...
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Nonsense, exactly like horse feathers. God's judgment is upon men for their sins, and in fact His wrath abides on all outside of Christ, that is, unless you simply want to rewrite the narrative as you are.
Um, no thanks, I'm not into adding my own rules and other things into the Word as you're doing. IOW not eisegetical as above, but exegetical as per operating under 2 Timothy 2:15
No one has tried to make salvation a result of being elect from the creation of the world, except for the fact that is exactly what God has wrought and said; Ephesians 1 &c. God did the choosing, yet all I see in response is Romans 9:20 going on in defiance of that truth.
Seems the problem therefore in His choosing is with Him and His Word. It's not really with us who happen to believe Him and His Word or practice eisegetical gymnastics as suggested in the quoted portions. Looks like (and is) a bunch of Romans 9:20 and 2 Timothy 4:3 going on here in the quoted portions.
Um, no thanks, I'm not into adding my own rules and other things into the Word as you're doing. IOW not eisegetical as above, but exegetical as per operating under 2 Timothy 2:15
No one has tried to make salvation a result of being elect from the creation of the world, except for the fact that is exactly what God has wrought and said; Ephesians 1 &c. God did the choosing, yet all I see in response is Romans 9:20 going on in defiance of that truth.
Seems the problem therefore in His choosing is with Him and His Word. It's not really with us who happen to believe Him and His Word or practice eisegetical gymnastics as suggested in the quoted portions. Looks like (and is) a bunch of Romans 9:20 and 2 Timothy 4:3 going on here in the quoted portions.
Bringing our every thought into obedience -
if our thoughts are right, overcoming becomes an
easier task.
but if our thoughts are in agreement with the 'old man',
we trick ourselves into replacing one sin with another
thinking that we are overcoming.
after falling into this trap numerous times,
our Father in heaven has taught us
how to catch ourselves in this self/deception.
thanks be to Jesus Christ our Saviour,
who lets us get away with less and less
as we Spiritually grow into
the Godly character that is our destiny,
if so be, we be faithful followers of Him.
always remember, we are coming in from a far country where no man is free, until our
Holy Father calls us, we are tied and bound...
JOHN 6:44.
No man can come to Me, except The Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
ISA. 46:9-10-11-12-13.
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:
yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near My righteousness; it shall not be far off, and My salvation shall not tarry:
and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel My glory.
if our thoughts are right, overcoming becomes an
easier task.
but if our thoughts are in agreement with the 'old man',
we trick ourselves into replacing one sin with another
thinking that we are overcoming.
after falling into this trap numerous times,
our Father in heaven has taught us
how to catch ourselves in this self/deception.
thanks be to Jesus Christ our Saviour,
who lets us get away with less and less
as we Spiritually grow into
the Godly character that is our destiny,
if so be, we be faithful followers of Him.
always remember, we are coming in from a far country where no man is free, until our
Holy Father calls us, we are tied and bound...
JOHN 6:44.
No man can come to Me, except The Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
ISA. 46:9-10-11-12-13.
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:
yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near My righteousness; it shall not be far off, and My salvation shall not tarry:
and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel My glory.
well I have to go and do some things I will try to come back later and hopefully there won't be 12 extra pages I need to read through to catch up lol.
I also want to say I understand there were lots of differences here in this thread but It has been very educational for me I learned quite a lot even from those who were of opposite views of me
I also want to say I understand there were lots of differences here in this thread but It has been very educational for me I learned quite a lot even from those who were of opposite views of me
He created everything that exists, things visible and invisible.
If nothing existed, no rebellions would exist, too.
So even though He is not actively causing rebellions, He is making the world leading to them and creating persons that will rebel under the circumstances they are set in.
I recommend the book Theodicy by G.W.Leibniz
If nothing existed, no rebellions would exist, too.
So even though He is not actively causing rebellions, He is making the world leading to them and creating persons that will rebel under the circumstances they are set in.
I recommend the book Theodicy by G.W.Leibniz
Dead ppl don't choose...dead ppl can't choose. One must be quickened by the Spirit of God first.
By your reasoning, Lazarus came out and then the Christ gave him life.
By your reasoning, those very dry bones in Ezekiel 37 came together of their own volition and had the wind blow life into them.
By your reasoning, the widow's son in Luke 7 rose up and then the Christ gave him life.
By your reasoning, Lazarus came out and then the Christ gave him life.
By your reasoning, those very dry bones in Ezekiel 37 came together of their own volition and had the wind blow life into them.
By your reasoning, the widow's son in Luke 7 rose up and then the Christ gave him life.