We establish the Law...but how?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
Paul made it very clear in romans 9:31-33 upon those trying to attain righteousness as Israel try.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore?

Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Paul once again teaching upon the righteousness

Galatians 5:3-5

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians next verse is perhaps the most important verse to focus on.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,but faith working through love.

Great reminded

For
we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

God bless
There ya go with the circumcision thing again.

I invite all to read my response to you on this new thread you started

Paul also said previously that "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7) If one rejects the law they are seeing it only one way because they just might not have the capability of seeing it the right way. No faith no comprehension. No comprehension, no faith and that is evidence that there is no Spirit to lead to the proper viewpoint in order to comprehend.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
The Bible says no one is righteous, not even one (Ro 3:10; Ps 14:3).)
People like you SNIP proof texts out of context and deceive people by not revealing the surrounding context. Your use of "none righteous, not even one" is a perfect example.

Paul writes...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That sentiment being quoted from...

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Both Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 are speaking of the fool who denies God. Of those fools there is none righteous, not even one. It is those fools who have all gone astray, who are filthy, who don't do any good. It is these fools who do not understand.

Paul in Romans 3 is making an argument that it is BOTH the Jews and the Gentile people who need Jesus Christ which is why he says...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Are the Jews better than the Gentiles because they were committed the oracles of God (Rom 3:2)? No. The disobedience of the Jews puts the righteousness of God in stark contrast and therefore has made the righteousness of God abound all the more (Rom 3:5-7). With this thought in mind Paul asks if this implies (as some suggest) that we ought do evil that good may come? He asks does this mean that the Jews are better than the Gentiles? Of course now because BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles have sinned, both the Jews and the Gentiles are corrupt, BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles have become filthy, of BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles, of the children of men there is none righteous, no, not even one.

Yet people like you completely ignore that context and snip a few verses out of their context to prove that all people, everywhere are absolutely wicked all the time.

That is evil to do that. You'll never quote the whole passages in their context like I just did because it would illustrate the deceptiveness by which you wield the Bible.

Thus your statements like this...

So you're missing something. . .and that is
"righteous" in Ro 3:10 is not the same "righteous" as Abel, Job, et al.


The "righteous" in Ro 3:10 is justification; i.e., the righteousness of Abraham, to whom it was credited
because of faith, not because of anything he did.

The Bible is not referring to justification in the cases of Abel, Job, et al.
...are pure nonsense.

Abel was declared righteous because of his FAITH.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel obtained witness that he was righteous by what he DID in faith. It is exactly the same with Abraham for...

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham had the "righteousness of faith" and God reckoned Abraham righteous apart from whether he was circumcised or not and therefore his righteousness was reckoned apart from the law. That reckons us righteous too if we walk in those same steps of Abraham which are the steps of faith. Faith works by love and love fulfills the law because love works no ill, love is obedient to God.

Yet you will come against that, even though the Bible teaches it, because it contradicts your doctrine of the "imputed righteousness of Christ" which you believe is the "obedience of Jesus being credited to your account."

What people like you do not understand is God's mercy and grace. You cannot comprehend God's mercy and grace for the simple reason that you view everything through the lense of strict justice only. That is why you think that "God requires perfect righteousness and perfect holiness to pass through his perfect judgment." Due to human beings being unable to do the impossible due to lacking "perfect knowledge" whereby they need "correction to grow" you easily buy into the invented doctrine of substitition where Jesus makes up your shortcomings for you.

Yet the truth is that God does not require perfect righteousness and perfect holiness to pass through perfect judgement. God requires a PURE HEART operating through a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE and God reckons that kind of faith as righteousness because it fulfills the righteous requirements of the law. The root of the children of God is clean because of this faith, a faith given us by God through His word which we mediate on through which we are given strength and resolve.

That is what you simply cannot comprehend and that is why you are forced to twist scripture in order to substantiate your false teachings.
Every single Bible verse and passage you quote to substantiate your saved in sins message you rip out of context and twist it. You leave little bits out and impose your theology into the verse in order to make it teach what it does not teach.

Satan manipulated scriptures when he tempted Jesus. Satan presented them to Jesus out of context. You present them out of context to the people on this forum. The principle is the same.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
So those in the new covenant are under the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39),
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6).
What Law? If Love satisfies the Law, then it is the Law we are fulfilling when we love. Correct?

What is wrong with Love having been expressed in words? What is the difference between 'have no other god besides Me', and 'Love God...'. Not a thing. One just expresses in words the act of Love in action.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
...And what about Luke 11:48-51?

Here is that whole passage in context...

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
Luk 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luk 11:45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
Luk 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Luk 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Luk 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Luk 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
Luk 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Jesus is speaking of the inward corruption of the Pharisees. They would make clean the outside but not the inside of the cup. The Pharisees were legalists not loving.

Yet people like Elin, by bringing up Luke 11:48-51, try to cast me as a Pharisee because I dare say that we have to obey God.

The Pharisees did not teach people to obey God. The pharisees did not teach people to forsake evil and yield to God. No, the Pharisees taught people to OBEY THEM.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because in spite of all their religious pomp they were inwardly wicked. They refused to approach God with a broken and contrite spirit and be cleansed inwardly. The refused to put away the evil of their doing. Instead of doing that they persecuted those who brought them the truth.

It is people like Elin who are a Pharisee in principle because instead of teaching the doctrine of Jesus Christ, which is the doctrine according to godliness, they instead teach "trust in theological doctrines" which they have elevated above the teachings of Jesus Christ even though those theological doctrines contradict the teachings of Jesus.

That is why they reject striving, sinning no more, being pure, keeping Jesus commands, taking up your cross and dying to sin, putting our hand to the plow and not looking back, digging deep, doing the will of the Father. They throw all that out the window and "trust in" what they perceive as "the finished work of Jesus" which in reality is an utter perversion of what Jesus actually accomplished.

The cross is the MEANS of salvation not a PROVISION. The cross is the MEANS by which we approach God in DYING WITH CHRIST. To them Jesus is their substitute not example. To them Jesus did it all for us so we don't have to. To them Jesus was righteous to cloak our wickedness.

To me Jesus is my example. To me Jesus is my high priest. To me Jesus led the way so I may follow. To me the blood of Christ enjoins me into covenant with God whereby I have been given a fresh start. To me salvation is through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of God is made manifest through me via the power of God.

Saved by grace THROUGH faith is an active working dynamic which produces a result, it is not trust in a provisional cloak premised off of a legal exchange.

Think about it folks.
 
C

chubbena

Guest
Indeed, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
What Law? If Love satisfies the Law, then it is the Law we are fulfilling when we love. Correct?

What is wrong with Love having been expressed in words? What is the difference between 'have no other god besides Me', and 'Love God...'. Not a thing. One just expresses in words the act of Love in action.
You are in agreement with the Apostle that Jesus loved, the Apostle John...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

This passage doesn't get much exposure here, does it?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Indeed, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation.
Created unto what?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
You are in agreement with the Apostle that Jesus loved, the Apostle John...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

This passage doesn't get much exposure here, does it?
Because it has that four letter word: commandments?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Because it has that four letter word: commandments?
Pretty much. Some people wonder how God could have the audacity to expect that we do what He says to do. You mean we should actually OBEY God?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Pretty much. Some people wonder how God could have the audacity to expect that we do what He says to do. You mean we should actually OBEY God?
Let us see:

Who shall dwell with LORD (Jesus, our Lord):

Psa 15:1 A Psalm of David. LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?

Psa 15:2-5

1) He that walketh uprightly, and
2) worketh righteousness, and
3) speaketh the truth in his heart.
4) He that backbiteth not with his tongue,
5) nor doeth evil to his neighbour,
6) nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
7) In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but
8) he honoureth them that fear the LORD.
9) He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
10) He that putteth not out his money to usury,
11) nor taketh reward against the innocent.​

He that doeth these things shall never be moved.


Speaking of not being moved:

The Son to Jehovah:

Psa 26:1 A Psalm of David. Judge me, O LORD;

Psa 26:1-2

1) for I have walked in mine integrity:
2) I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.


Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart:

Psa 26-3-11 (notice that the Son said 'I' 12 times)

1) For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and
2) I have walked in thy truth.
3) I have not sat with vain persons,
4) neither will I go in with dissemblers.
5) I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and
6) will not sit with the wicked.
7) I will wash mine hands in innocency:
8) so will I compass thine altar, O LORD:That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works.
9) LORD, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the
10) place where thine honour dwelleth. Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:In whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes.
11) But as for me, I will walk in mine integrity: redeem me, and be merciful unto me.​

Psa 26:12 My foot standeth in an even place: in the congregations will I bless the LORD.

I suppose if we desire to dwell with God, we should, seeing that Jesus Himself proudly proclaimed obedience.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
What Law? If Love satisfies the Law, then it is the Law we are fulfilling when we love. Correct?

What is wrong with Love having been expressed in words? What is the difference between 'have no other god besides Me', and 'Love God...'. Not a thing. One just expresses in words the act of Love in action.
Do you fulfill the law of love?
Do you love God with ALL your heart , mind, soul and strength 100% of the time...ahem , and your neighbor as yourself?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
Pretty much. Some people wonder how God could have the audacity to expect that we do what He says to do. You mean we should actually OBEY God?
God is working in us both to will and do His good pleasure. We are a work under construction...hardly a perfect specimen establishing the Law.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
Pretty much. Some people wonder how God could have the audacity to expect that we do what He says to do. You mean we should actually OBEY God?
The problem is the "doctrine of inability" which is necessitated by the "doctrine of Original Sin" or "birth depravity."

If one believes in birth depravity then one must believe that people are disabled from making the virtuous choice due to their internal birth nature.

It is that belief which necessitates one deny "obedience to God" being a condition of salvation because birth depravity teachings makes such a condition impossible to meet. With such a condition being impossible to meet a substitution for obedience is needed and that is where a "forensic imputation of righteousness" comes in.

One error is built upon another error and so on.

Today there exists an entire system of error all established on an underlying error. That underlying error is the notion that a human being has two natures, a sinful nature and a godly nature.

We can trace how this error infiltrated church orthodoxy by going back and reading the writings of Augustine of Hippo who was a theologian from the fourth century. Augustine was steeped in third century neoplatonic philosophy as well as the philosophy of the Manichaeans. When he converted to Catholicism he naturally read some of his presuppositions into the biblical text.

Augustine's major support for his ideas came from Rom 5:12 where in the Latin Vulgate it is rendered "in whom all have sinned" instead of "for that all have sinned." That one error led Augustine to believe that all humanity was actually present in the loins of Adam (due to Heb 7:9-10) when Adam sinned and thus duly sinned with Adam and thus shared in Adam's spiritual corruption and condemnation.

This major theme is the cornerstone of almost everything Augustine wrote. It is out of this fundamental belief that "inability" flows and therefore it forced Augustine to define grace within this context. Grace to Augustine was an offset for inability.

Augustine viewed concupiscence (natural passions of the flesh, especially sexual desire) as sin itself and thus evidence of the "fallen nature" of man. The truth is that concupiscence is not sinful but is instead simply the natural desires of the human body. It is these natural passions which tempt us to sin but that temptation is not sin itself. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and therefore had the same natural passions as we do.

Martin Luther and John Calvin were both heavily influenced by Augustine's writings and this is evidenced simply by reading their work where they quote and refer to Augustine many times.

The notion that we are "born sinners" is that little piece of leaven which has leavened the whole lump. It lies at the root of most false teaching.
 
Last edited:

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
The problem is the "doctrine of inability" which is necessitated by the "doctrine of Original Sin" or "birth depravity."

If one believes in birth depravity then one must believe that people are disabled from making the virtuous choice due to their internal birth nature.

It is that belief which necessitates one deny "obedience to God" being a condition of salvation because birth depravity teachings makes such a condition impossible to meet. With such a condition being impossible to meet a substitution for obedience is needed and that is where a "forensic imputation of righteousness" comes in.

One error is built upon another error and so on.

Today there exists an entire system of error all established on an underlying error. That underlying error is the notion that a human being has two natures, a sinful nature and a godly nature.

We can trace how this error infiltrated church orthodoxy by going back and reading the writings of Augustine of Hippo who was a theologian from the fourth century. Augustine was steeped in third century neoplatonic philosophy as well as the philosophy of the Manichaeans. When he converted to Catholicism he naturally read some of his presuppositions into the biblical text.

Augustine's major support for his ideas came from Rom 5:12 where in the Latin Vulgate it is rendered "in whom all have sinned" instead of "for that all have sinned." That one error led Augustine to believe that all humanity was actually present in the loins of Adam (due to Heb 7:9-10) when Adam sinned and thus duly sinned with Adam and thus shared in Adam's spiritual corruption and condemnation.

This major theme is the cornerstone of almost everything Augustine wrote. It is out of this fundamental belief that "inability" flows and therefore it forced Augustine to define grace within this context. Grace to Augustine was an offset for inability.

Augustine viewed concupiscence (natural passions of the flesh, especially sexual desire) as sin itself and thus evidence of the "fallen nature" of man. The truth is that concupiscence is not sinful but is instead simply the natural desires of the human body. It is these natural passions which tempt us to sin but that temptation is not sin itself. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and therefore had the same natural passions as we do.

Martin Luther and John Calvin were both heavily influenced by Augustine's writings and this is evidenced simply by reading their work where they quote and refer to Augustine many times.

The notion that we are "born sinners" is that little piece of leaven which has leavened the whole lump. It lies at the root of most false teaching.

Psalms 51:3-5 For I am aware of my rebellious acts; I am forever conscious of my sin.
Against you – you above all – I have sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight. So you are just when you confront me; you are right when you condemn me.
Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

...and the context is David, not his mother.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Do you fulfill the law of love?
Do you love God with ALL your heart , mind, soul and strength 100% of the time...ahem , and your neighbor as yourself?
That does not negate that the Law of the Spirit points to God's Laws which pertain to love. Now, does it?

By pointing out human failure, are you attempting to discredit Law altogether, even God's Law? This faith does not render law useless (abolish, make void), it establishes (upholds, continues) law.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
God is working in us both to will and do His good pleasure. We are a work under construction...hardly a perfect specimen establishing the Law.
Php 2:13 οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM - (the God) γαρG1063 CONJ - (seeing that) εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S - (God is) οG3588 T-NSM ενεργωνG1754 V-PAP-NSM - (the One being active) ενG1722 PREP - (in) υμινG4771 P-2DP - (you*) καιG2532 CONJ - (even) τοG3588 T-ASN - (this) θελεινG2309 V-PAN - (to desire) καιG2532 CONJ - (and) τοG3588 T-ASN - (this) ενεργεινG1754 V-PAN - (to be active) υπερG5228 PREP - (above (more than, beyond)) τηςG3588 T-GSF ευδοκιαςG2107 N-GSF - (His the pleasure)

Php 2:13 seeing that God is the One being active in you*, even this: to desire and to be active ABOVE (more than, beyond) His pleasure.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
God is working in us both to will and do His good pleasure. We are a work under construction...hardly a perfect specimen establishing the Law.
Check this out...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Indeed He does.

Yet look at what Paul writes before that...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul speaks of these people "obeying" and compels them to "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling. The word in the Greek for "work out" is...

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

Now look at how that matches what Jesus taught...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

...and this...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Now look at this...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

There is a very clear pattern of how obedience is necessary because obedience makes the work of God effectual to the saving of the soul.

Look at this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is in DOING that we find a result. Our souls are able to be saved if we meet the condition of DOING.

It is kind of like how we can drive a car from A to B. We could say that map direction to B and the fuel in the tank if God's grace. Faith would be using those things to drive to B. Without faith the destination would not be reached.

This is why the Bible says...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Without obedience there can be no salvation. God is the author but if we don't follow that which is written then we receive that which is written to no working effect. In other words if we don't "work together with God" then we receive the grace of God in vain (2Cor 6:1).

These words of Paul that I quote next are referring to this working dynamic that produces a result...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What the false teachers have done is rip the working dynamic from this teaching and replaced it with "trust in something that has already happened." That is why many professing Christian's are taught to "trust who they are in Christ" while they still are sinning. When the working dynamic is removed everything is then perverted into a mere position which one trust in. That way "trust and believe" in Jesus can still be preached and yet lead millions to hell.

Satan is a master deceiver. Satan is a master theologian. Satan deceived the whole world, especially professing Christians.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Are you 100% obedient or Christ?
Are you? Is anyone?

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

So, if those who are striving to do as God says are scarcely saved, what about those who sin? What about those who don't strive to resist sin?

Oh and just to refresh your thoughts here...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Do you fulfill the law of love?
Do you love God with ALL your heart , mind, soul and strength 100% of the time...ahem , and your neighbor as yourself?
Do you? I do not. I sin, I break the Law. Not intentionally, not purposely, not because I disregard it but because I still have the same nature that Paul wrote about in the 7th chapter of Romans. So if I sin, is that the end of all? Am I doomed to damnation?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice verse 2? John says he writes to us that we do not sin (I John 3:4), but if we do, we have a remedy...

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We go to our High Priest and ask forgiveness and receive mercy and grace.