'What About Deborah?' and Other Silly Excuses Women Use to Usurp Authority

[kennethcadwell]

To be 'of note among the Apostles' does not signify that he/she was an Apostle. It merely signifies that he/she was well known to and respected by the Apostles. In the light of Scriptures elsewhere he/she was not one of 'the Apostles'.



In fact in the Greek it is Junian. Translating as Junia works on the basis that Junian was a feminine accusative. Others see it as an abbreviation of the common name Junianus which would be masculine.

But which early church writings did mention him/her? They were late enough just to be guessing as we are.



whilst I do not doubt that Phoebe was a deaconess, we should note that diakonos does mean a servant. Just as episkopos means an overseer. thus the translation servant is literally correct.



You must prove that in other ways, not by misrepresenting the Greek.

Your first statement of mentioning the of note among apostles is one of the faulty used debates to say Junia was not a Apostle.
However the problem with the debate is that if a person actually researches and looks into early church documents, this debate gets thrown out the window. For there are a few early church documents that mention Junia in them, and they all before the 4th century call her a female Apostle.
Nowhere does scripture say she wasn't an Apostle as you state......

Wrong again as I have mentioned a number of times now that early church documents up to the 4th century list her as a female Apostle. It was changed in the 4th century to the masculine by adding the s to the name, before the 4th century she was always considered a female Apostle.

Yes like I said before the Greek word for deacon can also be translated servant, however so can Apostle, prophet, and so on as we are all servants of the Lord our God. Just because the position one holds in the church is different then another makes them no less a servant then another.
Even Jesus tells the original 12 Apostles that are to be servants to others..........

But the original translation is still deacon which is a place of leadership within the church, as a deacon is charged to lead others in worship, psalms, hymns, and so forth as well.

I am not misrepresenting the Greek, as I use the full context behind the words and not just a simplified definition as some do. Greek words have more than one meaning, and also the context by how they are applied can be used differently depending on its placing.

Example: Pisteuo (believe)

I have seen many say this word means to believe in a past completed event, but however the word nowhere says such a thing in its definition and context in how it is used.


1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40;


And there is even more to this word....................

 

[Angela53510]

I was reading Romans 16 last night in Greek. I was a bit shocked at the use of Junian at first, then recognized it was indeed the accusative case, meaning that the name was most likely Junia.

But what struck me the most, is that Paul starts with her, and spends a lot of time on her ministry, and all she meant to Paul. (Her work!) If she was not a leader, it seems odd Paul would have started with her, and spent so much time talking about her. It really is quite striking in the Greek, and Paul extols her as a deacon, (there is no word deaconess in the Greek) and her ministry and work for the Lord.

Of course, there is so much more, and how bad translations have meant that women who have been gifted by God as leaders have been suppressed, repressed and generally not used the way God has called them. All on the basis of gender, not calling and gifts.

My appreciation to the men on this thread who have come against the OP and used a lot of scripture to do it. I may not agree with some of you on some things, but on this issue, we are in one accord!

 

[kennethcadwell]

"Julia" is found in P46, it, cop, eth, and Ambrosiaster. P46, a papyrus manuscript dating about 200 AD, is one of the most ancient and reliable Greek mss of the NT extant


Here is just one of the oldest and most reliable manuscripts of the Romans 16:7 of the use of rather Junia or Julia as used here shows she was clearly a female and not a male as people from the 4th century to now has tried to change her to be a man..............

 

[Mitspa]

I was reading Romans 16 last night in Greek. I was a bit shocked at the use of Junian at first, then recognized it was indeed the accusative case, meaning that the name was most likely Junia.

But what struck me the most, is that Paul starts with her, and spends a lot of time on her ministry, and all she meant to Paul. (Her work!) If she was not a leader, it seems odd Paul would have started with her, and spent so much time talking about her. It really is quite striking in the Greek, and Paul extols her as a deacon, (there is no word deaconess in the Greek) and her ministry and work for the Lord.

Of course, there is so much more, and how bad translations have meant that women who have been gifted by God as leaders have been suppressed, repressed and generally not used the way God has called them. All on the basis of gender, not calling and gifts.

My appreciation to the men on this thread who have come against the OP and used a lot of scripture to do it. I may not agree with some of you on some things, but on this issue, we are in one accord!

Some of the KJV translation of the Greek is so full of the translators own personal ideas and thoughts that often the scriptures that relate to woman and ministry have been perverted from their original intention. A good understanding of the Greek would answer many of these issues and put this issue in a better light. Notice its often the same KJV only folks who think they must rail against Gods ability to call and equip a woman for ministry.

 

[Stephen63]

What does the men-only crowd do with a woman with God-given ability? Say it's not of God? If you do, what happens if you're wrong? You see, if you judge the woman, you judge the God that called her.

BTW, it's mostly the male-dominated churches that are going you-know-where in a handbasket.

I remember Jesus saying you'll know people by their fruits. Don't be caught cursing good fruit.

 

[TwilightSparkle]

What does the men-only crowd do with a woman with God-given ability? Say it's not of God? If you do, what happens if you're wrong? You see, if you judge the woman, you judge the God that called her.

BTW, it's mostly the male-dominated churches that are going you-know-where in a handbasket.

I remember Jesus saying you'll know people by their fruits. Don't be caught cursing good fruit.

I will agree with you on this point sir. Although there are equally good and bad churches out there I agree that men should not judge the women. And I also would like to point out how if a women is using Deborah and other references to biblical women, shes probably saying that something needs to change. I don't think that women should even have to reference those verses/ characters, but instead they should be put equal

 

[Jeff_56]

Does God<'s WORD> <tell> wives to obey their husbands?

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.......................................... YES

 

[valiant]

Your first statement of mentioning the of note among apostles is one of the faulty used debates to say Junia was not a Apostle.

you are entitled to your view. Bur in view of the fact that 'the Apostles' is defined as meaning the twelve plus the Lord's brothers + Paul and Barnabas I think that the weight of the evidence lies against you. If Junias was an Apostle, how many other Apostles were there? The term Apostle becomes meaningless.

However the problem with the debate is that if a person actually researches and looks into early church documents, this debate gets thrown out the window. For there are a few early church documents that mention Junia in them, and they all before the 4th century call her a female Apostle.

But they are simply guessing like you are. They are too late to be based on reliable tradition.

Nowhere does scripture say she wasn't an Apostle as you state......

Nowhere does it unambiguously state that she was.

Wrong again as I have mentioned a number of times now that early church documents up to the 4th century list her as a female Apostle. It was changed in the 4th century to the masculine by adding the s to the name, before the 4th century she was always considered a female Apostle.

That is simply your dogmatic opinion. Your clam is too general. How many were there? No doubt you will list all these reference giving document, author, and reference. Until you do I don't believe you. I think you are exaggerating. Hoe can you possibly say that she was always considered to be a female Apostle on the basis of one or two late manuscripts?

Yes like I said before the Greek word for deacon can also be translated servant,

you actually said that servant was a wrong translation.

But the original translation is still deacon which is a place of leadership within the church, as a deacon is charged to lead others in worship, psalms, hymns, and so forth as well.

who says it is 'the original translation'? Have you traced the first English translation? Does Wycliffe say deacon?

I am not misrepresenting the Greek, as I use the full context behind the words and not just a simplified definition as some do. Greek words have more than one meaning, and also the context by how they are applied can be used differently depending on its placing.

Perfectly true but there is nothing in the context which demands either one or the other.

 

[valiant]

Your first statement of mentioning the of note among apostles is one of the faulty used debates to say Junia was not a Apostle.
However the problem with the debate is that if a person actually researches and looks into early church documents, this debate gets thrown out the window. For there are a few early church documents that mention Junia in them, and they all before the 4th century call her a female Apostle.
Nowhere does scripture say she wasn't an Apostle as you state......

Wrong again as I have mentioned a number of times now that early church documents up to the 4th century list her as a female Apostle. It was changed in the 4th century to the masculine by adding the s to the name, before the 4th century she was always considered a female Apostle.

Yes like I said before the Greek word for deacon can also be translated servant, however so can Apostle, prophet, and so on as we are all servants of the Lord our God. Just because the position one holds in the church is different then another makes them no less a servant then another.
Even Jesus tells the original 12 Apostles that are to be servants to others..........

But the original translation is still deacon which is a place of leadership within the church, as a deacon is charged to lead others in worship, psalms, hymns, and so forth as well.

I am not misrepresenting the Greek, as I use the full context behind the words and not just a simplified definition as some do. Greek words have more than one meaning, and also the context by how they are applied can be used differently depending on its placing.

Example: Pisteuo (believe)

I have seen many say this word means to believe in a past completed event, but however the word nowhere says such a thing in its definition and context in how it is used.


1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40;


And there is even more to this word....................

"The church father Chrysostom (died A.D. 407) referred to this person as a woman (Homily on Romans 31.7; NPNF 1, 11:555) but the church father Origen (died A.D. 252) referred to Junias as a man (MPG 14: 1289), and the early church historian Epiphanius (died A.D. 403) explicitly uses a masculine pronoun of Junias and seems to have specific information about him when he says that "Junias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria" (Index disciplulorum 125.19- 20).

Two to one for male at present LOL

 

[Stephen63]

"The church father Chrysostom (died A.D. 407) referred to this person as a woman (Homily on Romans 31.7; NPNF 1, 11:555) but the church father Origen (died A.D. 252) referred to Junias as a man (MPG 14: 1289), and the early church historian Epiphanius (died A.D. 403) explicitly uses a masculine pronoun of Junias and seems to have specific information about him when he says that "Junias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria" (Index disciplulorum 125.19- 20).

Two to one for male at present LOL

You missed a major point: after the third century the church writings became corrupt..... the RCC was well on its way.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Apostle Paul just says that he does not allow women to teach or have authority over a man, not that they can not have authority.

Once again in order for this debate to be valid on women can not be leaders, then you would have to do away with a number of women mentioned in the bible.

One being Junia who is a female apostle and mentioned as such in the bible.

Romans 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


Junia was a man, not a lady. Paul said his KINSMEN.

Furthermore, Junia was not an apostle. Paul did not say that Junia and Andronicus were apostles. He simply said that they were of NOTE AMONG THE APOSTLES. That's all he said. Be careful about reading something into a passage and text which is not there.


Here is Scriptural proof by the way to show you that there are only 12 apostles:


Revelation 21:14 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All early church writings up to the 4th century had Junia mentioned as a female apostle, it was not tell the 4th century that they tried to hide this fact to where they even took in some translations and changed her name to the male form Junias. Adding the s to the end that is not in the original Greek, to hide her authority as an apostle.

What does the Bible say and teach Kenneth?

We don't have the original Greek text. Jesus Christ never chose a female to be one of His apostles. You cannot show me one Scripture where He chose a female apostle. Why? Because He only chose men to be His apostles.

Another is Phoebe who is called a deacon in Romans 16:1, even though some translations have her listed as a servant.

Romans 16:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

16 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.


In the above passage of Scripture, Paul never calls Phebe a Deacon. Only a servant of the church.

And when you read in 1 Tim. 3, we see that Deacons are to be the husbands of one wife. Phebe is a lady, therefore she cannot fill the office of a Deacon. She can only be a wife. That should be obvious:


1 Timothy 3:12 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

People constantly misuse what Paul said to say women can not hold leadership roles, but that is not at all what Paul was saying.

And Kenneth, people like you are always twisting or trying to explain away a clear passage of Scripture. Just read the Scripture as it stands. Stick with the word of God, the King James Bible.


Paul clearly said that the women are to learn in silence with all subjection. In the church assemblies. He also clearly said that women are not to usurp the authority over the man.