What can we learn from the life/story of Job?

joaniemarie · Jan 16, 2018

[FONT=&quot]Some personal comments about being "saved" Was Job born saved? No.
Was Job saved? Not at the beginning of the book of Job.
Did Job even hear about the coming Savior and how much did Job know about God's love? I don't know.
Did Job understand more at the end of the book of Job? Yes.

I believe Job was brought into the truth by the end of the book and God revealed Himself to Job. But in the beginning I believe Job didn't have the truth about who God was and how God dealt with people.

Some helpful comments from 2 guys on the article about Job;

I so wish tradition would actually use James 5 to interpret Job. What they do instead is look at the oldest book in the Bible, see a man who had no Word of God to rely upon for true info, he had no revealed covenant with God like Abraham did or Noah, he had no knowledge of who God is, he didn’t know the devil existed.

he didn’t know God isn’t the one who brings tragedy and pain and neither did his friends including the young man, and yet with their limited understanding of God, religious tradition holds Job up as an example of theological truth. They insist upon using Job as an example of how God deals with His Family, post cross.

What the New Covenant admonition is, is to look at the end of the Lord as James states and see that God is full of tender mercies and compassion. We’re not told to look at Job’s suffering, the debate between the five people, but only to see the compassion and goodness of God.
[/FONT]

For me, Understanding that Job was an example(for us) of a man without a covenant changed how I saw God’s progressive plan to save us.

If Abraham was the subject of Satan’s attention (accusation)the story would read
“Get out of my face Satan, I curse you. Of coarse he is blessed, he has a covenant and he has Faith in the “One God” to complete the terms of that covenant”. And then, very very shortly after those words, a distinct absence of the accuser.

Tradition loses the point of the story when they mold Job to fit their theology.

star · Jan 17, 2018

Job was a man of faith - Job shunned evil - Job was devout to God

That seems to me as if he was obeying God and believed in God. How, then, could he not be saved?

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Over the years it's taken me a lot of time to come to grips with who God is in TRUTH vs who God is in the sight of men. When I thought about Job in light of what I was taught by my religious upbringing in church about God sending sickness and doom... I cannot say there was ever a great thirst and desire to read all about the sufferings of Job.

Much like the guy who wants to be a missionary but feared God would send him to Africa. The song "Please Don't Send Me To Africa" was born. This is totally not what Jesus taught us about God. God doesn't just wait to stick us with what we fear so we can "learn a lesson" What a horrible man made Greek God mess!

I prefer to look to Jesus as the Bible tells us to so to get the PROPER interpretation of God the Father and His love and ways towards us. Here is a terrific post by a Bible commentator and writer named Paul Ellis that explains a much different perspective about Job than the one I first learned. IMO Mr. Ellis has a much better handle on the book of Job. Job learned how to be a truly Godly man.

Many people consider Job a great man and a champion of the faith. Job, you will recall, lost everything (his family, wealth and health), then sat on a dunghill scratching himself with a broken plate while having a theology debate with seminarians. As a result of this rich, life-affirming experience, many people now believe the following lies:

God gives and takes away good things like children, health, jobs
God uses sickness to punish or discipline me
God puts me through hard times to teach me humility
God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line

I want to offer a different perspective. The book of Job is not about a great man but a flawed man. The Job we read about was not the man of God many think he was, but a superstitious and fearful man who said some stupendously dumb things. His story is not about the triumph of the human spirit, but the awesome grace God gives to broken humanity.

“But Job was a righteous man.” Actually, he was a self-righteous man and basically an unbeliever, as we shall see. I’m not knocking Job. My purpose is to show you how grace changes broken people like you, me, and Job. By the time we get to the end of this short series, you’re going to be amazed at some of the good things God says about this imperfect man. But to finish well we must begin with a proper understanding of Job’s state apart from God. So here are ten little known facts about Job:

1. Job was superstitious

Like many religious people, Job believed in karma. He subscribed to the faithless wisdom of sowing and reaping. If his kids threw a wild party, Job would bring a sacrifice. “They might’ve sinned; I’d better do something about it.” Debits and credits. “This was Job’s regular custom” (Job 1:5).

2. Job was sin-conscious

Not his sins, of course, because he didn’t have any. (Cough!) He was a good man who kept the ledger clean. But Job viewed sin like kryptonite (see Job 31:11-12). He was terrified of it and thought about it constantly (see Job 31).

3. Job was full of fear

Job was insecure and bound with fear. He would’ve been the perfect customer for an insurance salesman because he feared calamities and disasters that would wipe him out (Job 31:23). When that happened he said, “What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me” (Job 3:25).

4. Job was full of self-pity

Read Job’s words and you get a strong sense of “Woe is me.” Although his woes were legitimate, he was utterly focused on his own sorry state. He was self-indulgent to the point of whining. “I will give free rein to my complaint” (Job 10:1). And complain he did.

5. Job allowed bitterness to take root

Bitterness is a grace-killer, but Job allowed that evil weed to flourish in the garden of his heart. “I will complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11).

6. Job was self-righteous

Job’s confidence was not in the Lord but his own good behavior. “How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin” (Job 13:23). Like an indignant Pharisee Job had an inflated sense of his moral performance. “Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6).

Job’s self-trust reinforced his victim mentality. “Can anyone bring charges against me?” (Job 13:19). Eventually his self-righteousness became so odorous that it even silenced the self-righteous men who came to counsel him. “These three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1).

7. Job thought God didn’t care

“Even if I summoned him and he responded, I do not believe he would give me a hearing” (Job 9:16). Job’s self-pitying distorted his perception of God’s character. Like many people going through hard times, Job thought God was opposed to him (Job 13:24).

8. Job blamed God for his troubles

It is often taught that Job never blamed God (which is a misreading of Job 1:22; more on this later). However, Job did not hesitate to point the finger at “the Almighty, who has made my life bitter” (Job 27:2). A storm killed his kids and tribal raiders stole his herds, yet Job attributed his loss to a God who gives and takes away (Job 1:21). Again and again Job said God was the cause of his trouble (see Job 2:10, 6:4).

Given his good behavior, Job couldn’t make sense of this divine unfairness. “Don’t you have better things to do than pick on me?” (Job 7:20, MSG). God moves in mysterious ways, thought Job. At any time he might “crush me with a storm and multiply my wounds for no reason” (Job 9:17).

9. Job thought God was trying to kill him

“Although I am blameless… He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:21-22). Job actually thought that God was trying to kill him. “You turn on me ruthlessly; with the might of your hand you attack me… I know you will bring me down to death” (Job 30:21,23).

10. Consequently, Job despaired of life and wished he was dead

Job loathed his life (see Job 7:16). “Who can see any hope for me?” (Job 17:15). This so-called hero of the faith had a death wish. “I prefer strangling and death, rather than this body of mine” (Job 7:15). Job had no faith in a God who heals and restores, but said, “the only home I hope for is the grave” (Job 17:13).

Many people honor Job as a giant of the faith who was renowned for his great patience. However, Job is not listed in Hebrews 11 among the other heroes of the faith and the only righteousness he exhibited was the stinky, self-made kind.

But stick around because we’re going to see that God’s grace is for imperfect people like Job. “He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill” (Psa 113:7). As we will see, Job’s life had a second act. Before he met the Lord Job was a whiner who falsely blamed God for his troubles; but afterwards he become a brand new man, a man that God saw as righteous and upright. It is an amazing story and you won’t want to miss it!

This illustrates the absolute abysmal depths false hyper-grace teachers go to refute the truth in the Bible. Just not in the book of Job but elsewhere.

Job 1:1

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Why don't you ask Paul Ellis how is entire doctrine of Job falls apart on Job 1:1

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie said:

I know it can be "scary" to look at the traditions of certain interpretations of the Bible and dare to see them in a different light. But I see it's a must be done sort of thing. For reasons already stated., God doesn't send bad things our way., They are part of living on this planet. Bad things come from 3 places. 1. The world 2. The flesh 3. The devil.

Below are some thoughts about Job being saved and if he was saved at the beginning of the book of Job.

“If you’re suffering, you must have done something bad. God must be punishing you.” That must be one of the oldest lies in history. Here’s another. “God is using these hard times to teach you humility.” These lies can be traced back to one of the oldest and most misunderstood stories in the Bible – the story of Job. As I’m sure you know, Job was a man who lost everything. The Book of Job is not mainly about his loss, but how he tried to process his loss with the help of three religious friends.

When I wrote my Job post a year and a half ago I had no idea that so many Christians would get upset by me telling them that God does not take away his good gifts. (To be honest, I wasn’t the first to say that. I stole that revelation from Romans 11:29: “God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” So if it makes you angry, take it up with the other Paul.) If you missed that post, here’s the short version; God does not give and take away. The only thing He’ll take off you is your sin, shame, and sickness.
I also had no idea that Tom Tompkins was writing a little gem entitled Understanding the Book of Job. In his book, Tompkins places the blame for Job’s woes squarely at the feet of the Devil:

Much of what Job’s friends told him exactly what we hear to today… While Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar did not condemn God, they did accuse and condemn Job. They were wrong to do so as it was not God or Job’s fault that the terrible events had taken place. Let’s not forget that none of these men had a revelation of the Devil. If the name “Satan” had been mentioned to any of them, they probably would have responded with “Who?” (pp.86,95)

“How convenient to blame the Devil,” you may say. “Surely God could have stopped Satan. Surely God set Job up by boasting about him.” Actually neither is true. Read the Job account in a literal translation such as Young’s and you will see that Satan came gunning for him:

And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, “Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?” (Job 1:8, YLT)

Satan had set his heart against Job. “So why didn’t God stop the Devil?” Good question. We might also ask, “Why doesn’t God stop earthquakes or famines or wars?” The answer is, not everything that happens is God’s responsibility. He left the planet in Adam’s control and Adam handed it to the Devil. Satan went for Job because he could. When God said, “All that he has is in thy power” (Job 1:12, see also 2:6), He wasn’t handing Job over to Satan – God doesn’t do deals with the Devil! – He was simply stating a fact. The whole unredeemed “world is under the control of the evil one” (1 Joh 5:19).

You have it better than Job

Job wasn’t saved. He wasn’t filled with the Holy Spirit. He had some understanding of God but he was a fearful and superstitious man filled with self pity and not a little self-righteousness (see Job 32:1).

Don’t ever compare yourself to Job! Jesus didn’t die on the cross to give you Job’s life but His life. It is Christ who lives in you, not Job. As Tompkins explains in his book, God does not inflict death and sickness on us to teach us stuff. God is more than capable of disciplining (i.e., training) us through His Word (2 Tim 3:16).

One of Job’s friends, Eliphaz, reasoned that Job was being afflicted on account of his sins. This same line is often heard today. When things go wrong we pray, “Lord search me and see if there be any wicked way in me.” When there are problems within the church, we hunt for “sin in the camp.” Do you realize how absurd this is? If God really judged us according to our sins, who could stand? If God was in the business of punishing sin in the camp, there wouldn’t be any camp!

Only a man ignorant of Jesus and His work on the cross would say that God punishes us for our sin. Eliphaz was such a man. God said of him, “You have not spoken concerning Me rightly” (Job 42:8). Anyone who says your hardships are God’s punishments is, like Eliphaz, not speaking of God rightly.

Later, Eliphaz suggested that Job would receive the blessings of God if he was worthy of them. Indeed, Job began to think exactly this way. “Look at all I’ve done.” This is equally absurd. God is not beholden to any of us. God blesses us in accordance with the riches of His grace, not the merits of our performance.

Why is Job’s story in the Bible? It is not there so we can look to him as a role model (we have Jesus!) but so that we might learn from his example. Those who don’t learn by example tend to learn by experience and experience is a harsh teacher. For those of you who would rather not learn the hard way, here’s the lesson: It is always Satan’s intention to harm us; it is always God’s intention to bless us. When you confuse the latter with the former, your reality will be defined by a lie making it virtually impossible to receive all that God has for you.

If you relate to God on the basis of obligation and performance, then you will falsely interpret life’s hardships and spiritual attacks as works of God. Instead of submitting in faith to the unconditional love of the Father and resisting the devil, your unbelief will lead you to submit to the devil and resist the One who loves you. It’s a recipe for disaster that is played out a thousand times every day by those who relate to God as Job did – with superstition and fear.

God does not desire your sacrifices

For as long as Job lived in fearful religion, trusting in the sacrifices of his own hands, he was setting himself up for disaster. “Those who cling to idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.” But when he finally shut up and repented of his stupid theology, he opened the door to the blessings of God. The lesson we take from Job is worth repeating: the Devil is bad but our Father is good and He loves us and desires to bless us. This book will help you see that

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Some personal comments about being "saved" Was Job born saved? No.
Was Job saved? Not at the beginning of the book of Job.
Did Job even hear about the coming Savior and how much did Job know about God's love? I don't know.
Did Job understand more at the end of the book of Job? Yes.

I believe Job was brought into the truth by the end of the book and God revealed Himself to Job. But in the beginning I believe Job didn't have the truth about who God was and how God dealt with people.

Some helpful comments from 2 guys on the article about Job;

I so wish tradition would actually use James 5 to interpret Job. What they do instead is look at the oldest book in the Bible, see a man who had no Word of God to rely upon for true info, he had no revealed covenant with God like Abraham did or Noah, he had no knowledge of who God is, he didn’t know the devil existed.

he didn’t know God isn’t the one who brings tragedy and pain and neither did his friends including the young man, and yet with their limited understanding of God, religious tradition holds Job up as an example of theological truth. They insist upon using Job as an example of how God deals with His Family, post cross.

What the New Covenant admonition is, is to look at the end of the Lord as James states and see that God is full of tender mercies and compassion. We’re not told to look at Job’s suffering, the debate between the five people, but only to see the compassion and goodness of God.

For me, Understanding that Job was an example(for us) of a man without a covenant changed how I saw God’s progressive plan to save us.

If Abraham was the subject of Satan’s attention (accusation)the story would read
“Get out of my face Satan, I curse you. Of coarse he is blessed, he has a covenant and he has Faith in the “One God” to complete the terms of that covenant”. And then, very very shortly after those words, a distinct absence of the accuser.

Tradition loses the point of the story when they mold Job to fit their theology.

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

kitty · Jan 17, 2018

ruach said:

Interesting to notice that when God did restore what satan took away he restored twice as much in livestock ect but exactly the same amount of sons and daughters? i think this is because when he gave the children it was added to the children Job lost showing to us that the dead are not lost but only in heaven waiting for us.I would be happy to hear what others think of this?

7777pinacled · Jan 17, 2018

star said:

Iyov (job)
I Learned from Yeshua first, that satan is a liar, theif, murderer.
And knowing that the enemy has no authority.
The Lord gives us Wonderfull counsel from the very begining of the account of iyov.
Iyov was decieved.
And never are we to attribute evil to the Most High.
So the account itself helps in reminding a person of the refining of God's purity in his Sons Grace who holds the seven stars.

Marcelo · Jan 17, 2018

Let me tell you folks what can happen to Christians who don't have a proper spiritual understanding of suffering. Two of my wife's friends had cancer and were absolutely "sure" God was going to heal them.

Many Christian friends and ministers when to their homes for prayer, but no sign of improvement. With time they started losing faith in God and started cursing Him.

The first story happened some 5 years ago and the second one was last year. They cursed God so much that in both cases they were buried as unbelievers -- without funeral service.

Unfortunately my wife's friends were trained to be fair weather Christians -- they believed God would always give them whatever they asked.

This topic is a good reminder for all of us -- we must be spiritually prepared for rough weather and always bear in mind that eternal life is worth any sacrifice.

7777pinacled · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie said:

[FONT=&quot]Some personal comments about being "saved" Was Job born saved? No.
Was Job saved? Not at the beginning of the book of Job.
Did Job even hear about the coming Savior and how much did Job know about God's love? I don't know.
Did Job understand more at the end of the book of Job? Yes.

I believe Job was brought into the truth by the end of the book and God revealed Himself to Job. But in the beginning I believe Job didn't have the truth about who God was and how God dealt with people.

Some helpful comments from 2 guys on the article about Job;

I so wish tradition would actually use James 5 to interpret Job. What they do instead is look at the oldest book in the Bible, see a man who had no Word of God to rely upon for true info, he had no revealed covenant with God like Abraham did or Noah, he had no knowledge of who God is, he didn’t know the devil existed.

he didn’t know God isn’t the one who brings tragedy and pain and neither did his friends including the young man, and yet with their limited understanding of God, religious tradition holds Job up as an example of theological truth. They insist upon using Job as an example of how God deals with His Family, post cross.

What the New Covenant admonition is, is to look at the end of the Lord as James states and see that God is full of tender mercies and compassion. We’re not told to look at Job’s suffering, the debate between the five people, but only to see the compassion and goodness of God.
[/FONT]

For me, Understanding that Job was an example(for us) of a man without a covenant changed how I saw God’s progressive plan to save us.

If Abraham was the subject of Satan’s attention (accusation)the story would read
“Get out of my face Satan, I curse you. Of coarse he is blessed, he has a covenant and he has Faith in the “One God” to complete the terms of that covenant”. And then, very very shortly after those words, a distinct absence of the accuser.

Tradition loses the point of the story when they mold Job to fit their theology.

And if you study the scripture in the scroll account of iyov.
There are many treasures the Lord forges in our Shield of Faith.

Blessings Always.

star · Jan 17, 2018

Marcelo, absolute truth. When we pray, it should always be for God's will to be done. Which may lead to the question, why did one person suffer and die and another suffered and was healed. Only God knows the answer. There was/is a reason. God does not ask us to understand but only to obey; whether we understand or not.

Satan wanted Job to curse God and turn away from Him. Job did become dishearten, asked questions, wishing he had never been born, but Job did not curse God and turn away from Him.

7777pinacled · Jan 17, 2018

star said:

This reminds me of when the enemy tempted our Redeemer while fasting.
Something I learned from experience is that while fasting a person may grow in the Spirit of Understanding that life not about what you do not have, but What a person does Have.
Thankful always in praising our Lord of Lights.
be vigilant....
Also, to remember that the enemy that comes during times of calamity in a person's(downtrodden) life will not offer comfort.
No, the enemy seeks only that a person worship worldly gain in moth rotten garments.

Nehemiah6 · Jan 17, 2018

ruach said:

Exactly. They blatantly and falsely teach that the Christian life will simply be smooth sailing, when the truth is the exact opposite. And yet -- because they tickle the ears -- they have numerous disciples promoting their nonsense.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 17, 2018

star said:

I always thought he was

Job 19:25-27

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him

with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

joaniemarie · Jan 17, 2018

It's is understandable that it takes a huge step out of our comfort zone to even consider Job differently than we were first taught. For me it was not difficult after discovering the great gift of the love of God in Christ. It was some years ago without reading Job that I discovered God is not the author of confusion., sickness, sin or death. When the truth of God's love in Christ was cemented into my mind and heart it was not difficult at all to read Job with a totally different perspective.

Like Job., many Christians believe God is out to punish, test and prove us by many calamities and tribulations. But the Bible says Jesus is the representation of God the Father and if we desire to see the Father we need only to look at the Son. Jesus never caused anyone to be confused or condemned or unloved. He walked around loving people calling them sheep without a Shepherd.

The tribulations we are told would come are not coming from our loving God. Tribulations come from 3 places. 1. The world 2. The flesh 3. The devil. God sent Jesus to give life and that more abundantly. He is the God of life., not death. Jesus came to defeat death and He did defeat it on the Cross.

The question we have to ask ourselves is why would He then go back and use death on us in different and varied ways? Religion teaches as man's ideas always do that God is like man. He is like the Greek God Zues who fiddles around with human beings like chess pieces. That is not the God of the Bible.

Those 3 things are always there and will daily and relentlessly seek to get our eyes off of Jesus and onto the temporal things we daily see with our limited human reason and vision. That is why now as believers we are called to live by faith and not by sight. Living by sight can kill a person. Putting faith in anything besides Jesus will lead us in all kinds of crazy and confusing directions.

And each believer is on a different road where faith is concerned. We each have been given a measure of faith. What's so encouraging to me is even faith as tiny as a mustard seed can move mountains. It's not about how much faith we have. We are each individually called to look "away" to Jesus the Author and finisher of our faith. Heb.11:1

Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

Nehemiah6 · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie,

It appears that in this post you are quoting some false teacher without attribution, which in itself is unacceptable. These words in italics are not your words. So let's look at some of this spiritual garbage that you are posting in the light of Scripture.

joaniemarie said:

God is certainly not the author of confusion or sin, but sickness and death are in the hands of God. So this statement is a blatant falsehood. Indeed, there is a warning in Scripture about partaking unworthily of the Lord's Supper and bringing judgment upon oneself.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep [die prematurely].
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [these are judgments from God]
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Cor 11:28-32) [these are chastening from God]

Another TOTAL FALSEHOOD. This is not what Job believed but WHAT HE EXPERIENCED. And he also knew he was not being "punished" because he was a righteous man. Similarly, genuine Christians know they are not being punished, but they also know that their faith is being tested and proved by enduring calamities and tribulations. So just in this one statement, the true colors of this false teacher have come out.

Another statement with half-truths. Of course Jesus -- being God -- could never cause anyone to be confused, so to even mention it is foolish. But to say that He never "caused" anyone to be condemned is also nonsensical. People cause themselves to be condemned by how they regard Christ and respond to Him. So the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers brought CONDEMNATION -- judgment upon themselves as is shown in Scripture.

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Another half-truth, as proven by the book of Job. Had God not given Satan permission to attack Job, he could not have been touched. So indirectly, those calamities did come upon Job from God.

The question we have to ask ourselves is why would He then go back and use death on us in different and varied ways?

Click to expand...

No the question is can Christians bring premature death upon themselves? And the answer is "Absolutely". That is why the apostle John says "There is a sin unto death". Why did this false teacher forget to bring that up?

Living by sight can kill a person. Putting faith in anything besides Jesus will lead us in all kinds of crazy and confusing directions.

Click to expand...

What exactly does this mean and what does it have to do with the book of Job? Life and death are in the hands of God, whether people walk by faith or walk by sight.

7seasrekeyed · Jan 17, 2018

ruach said:

this is one of the worst defenses for followers of the doctrines of false teachers I have seen yet in this forum

it's useless to go point by point regarding the blatant mish mash pablum that is being served up

you know, so much can be gained from this book; and then along comes someone who believes that the Bible does not say what it actually does say and without regard posts the renderings of someone whose object seems to be to make God into his own image

7seasrekeyed · Jan 17, 2018

so then it seems what is actually being said, is that God is at the mercy of the devil and is fine with the devil representing His handiwork

so why didn't God tell the devil to get lost when he went before God asking to wreck havoc in Job's life?

now we will be told that was because Job wasn't saved and then the 'New Covenant' will be brought up even though understanding is devoid, apparently, of any OT covenants and how they shed light on Christ and his death and resurrection

the truth is being objectified and mocked over and over by these false teachers and labelled as 'religion'

they don't need the Bible...it's wrong anyway

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

They will rue the day!

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

joaniemarie said:

Ask Paul Ellis what he thinks about this passage and it is talking about Jesus:

Hebrews 5:7-10

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, [SUP]10 [/SUP]being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

God ALLOWS do you understand the difference in that simple word? ALLOWS. Say the word over and over.

If he ALLOWED his own son to suffer then, should we accept any less?

Romans 8:32-
[SUP]32 [/SUP]He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

ruach · Jan 17, 2018

7seasrekeyed said:

This is the truth they try to hide in their feel good, never suffer, never lack, never worry false doctrine:

Job 1:21

[SUP]21 [/SUP]He said,
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked I shall return there.
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

I would like Joanie to answer this:

If Job was not saved and a sinner and not rightoeus, then how would he know the Lord gives and takes away and why would he say blessed be the name of the Lord? T

What can we learn from the life/story of Job?

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