What do you say to an atheist?

[zavok]

The possibility is staggering to say the least. Now picture life, in all it"s diversities, the different planets, suns, stars and galaxies out there as in a sense, all different VCRs onto themselves. If the possibility of one VCR out of the bag is staggering, what is the possibilty of every bag coming out a VCR?

now if you reed my theory or try to find this theory it kinda make sense your following the theory of big bang happened and it just made a load of planets things dont just suddenly happen it take alot of time so i could argue aslong you keep trying at some point it will happen again and again

btw the theory is based on super black holes look it up to understand what im trying to say

 

[Israel]

now if you reed my theory or try to find this theory it kinda make sense your following the theory of big bang happened and it just made a load of planets things dont just suddenly happen it take alot of time so i could argue aslong you keep trying at some point it will happen again and again

btw the theory is based on super black holes look it up to understand what im trying to say

What I'm trying to say is that whatever method used to make the phyisical universe, it didn't happen by accident. Things such as my example of VCRs didn't happen by chance. It had a plan. A design. The same with the universe. The eternal Spirit of God is evident all around us. Take your life for instance. History tells us that mankind has been around for thousands of years at the least. Can you recall even being here the last 100 years? Odds are again that's a very slim possibilty that you can as well. But what you can tell me is that for the here and now, you simply are! You have been looking at this world with your eyes for as long as you can remember, as with any other human being that has come before or will come. It's the same with God. He stated when moses asked for His name, "I am that I am". That state of being has been and will be eternal. Most people who tells you such things such as the gay issue don't understand the full message of the Bible. The Bible teaches you that to be guilty of transgressing one law is to be guilty of the whole law. So how can one pass judgement on a gay person when that person is a thief, or a liar, or an idol worshiper. Every man works out his own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[aspen]

even when yous ay it like that there still opposits hot/ god cold is the absence of heat. but heat is the absence of cold

heat is a force - cold is what we feel when the force is diminished. Itis less than, not opposite

 

[aspen]

Chesterton was not an atheist...he was a convert to Catholicism

I was talking about George Bernard Shaw.....

Have you read anything by Chesterton?

 

[resurrection33]

just dont preach down our throats and say we are this and that and we are going to hell. we find it annoying and insulting. jus talk to us as if we were human which we are simple

When someone announces they are an atheist, don’t they open the door for a little “preaching”?

And what I would preach is this:

The Lord needs to be loved just like we need to be loved. He gave us each the gift of life. For us not to give him the love he needs is a selfish thing, in my opinion.

Am I wrong?

 

[karuna]

What I'm trying to say is that whatever method used to make the phyisical universe, it didn't happen by accident. Things such as my example of VCRs didn't happen by chance. It had a plan. A design. The same with the universe.

The universe is mostly empty space and when it's filled, it mostly seem chaotic and wasteful. Life does not seem to abound, except on a thin, fragile sphere on an otherwise dead rock. Elsewhere, we see enormous explosions that are more likely to scour life than encourage it. There are large voids in which matter and energy are so scarce these areas might as well be completely empty.

I find no comparison between universes and VCRs. Every component in a VCR serves a purpose and a great deal of testing has been done to ensure that the thing will not simply explode when you plug it in. Perhaps if we regress to a geocentric model of the universe some comparison might be made. Everything therein was intended for a purpose, and the course of the planets were guided by God's hand itself. That I could compare to a VCR, but I know it's a young humanity's view of the universe. Frankly, it's only a lack of perspective that allows a person to look at the chaos and violence in the universe at large and think it's comparable to a clock in need of a maker.

The misunderstanding is that no one is saying that it happened by accident, full stop. It happened by accident only in the sense that it did not happen by someone's purpose, but this accident is not simply an unbiased random walk. For instance, no one really says that rain flows down by accident. Is it true that there are random influences in the water's path, but in following principles it tends to form patterns even if there is no designer. Some ancients thought that the gods dug out the rivers with the wheels of their chariots; now we know that they happen without any intervention.

In any case, science does not as a whole assert that the universe came about randomly. For all we know, this is a necessary universe and universal quantities could have taken no other values. There are philosophical problems empirical science cannot get beyond, so, even if some scientists go beyond their calling and become philosophers, we shouldn't take them too seriously as scientists.

Science does say that there are recognizable principles which guide the macroscopic effects of random variation, though. Gravity pulls together bits of matter and encourages complexity, slows entropy. Self-replicating structures become more common than structures which don't replicate. Those which have the capacity to replicate better, do. All of this makes sense if we have these principles. If we assume that there was a creator, all the chaos and violence still begs an explanation.

 

[karuna]

Now that I have a little more time to respond...

A while back I turned myself into an atheist, or at least tried to, in order to understand atheist better. For the most part, the atheist I conversed with on a regular basis had a history of negative association with religion....former jehovahs witnesses. Like myself, I didn't want to believe in God because he caused me much pain growing up.

You never "tried to turn yourself into an atheist." If you believed that God caused you pain, you believed that God existed. I understand that you may have had a difficult religious history and flirted with the thought of atheism, you may have held a grudge against Christians, stopped going to church, and set your Bible on fire... but you didn't simultaneously hold in your head the two thoughts: 1) "god hurt me" 2) "so I want to be an atheist." Whether or not you became an atheist, the wounds would have still been there, so becoming an atheist would have fixed nothing. The thoughts are not related.

What you're trying to do here is set up the next idea:

But then I came across Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and there seems to be a new atheist movement arising from these two antichrist atheist that I'm labeling radical atheist. They have a major chip on their shoulder because they think belief in God is not healthy, dangerous really, a burden on society and hypocritical.

They look at how Yaweh in the OT used war and some not so good people to accomplish his will of ensuring Jesus's lineage wasn't destroyed, so they call him an angry abusive power hungry genocidal tyrant, and they don't like anyone who worships him.....so they have labeled that which say's does not exist.

Let's dissect what you do here. When you were younger and more emotionally immature, you didn't want to believe that God existed because he hurt you. Therefore, anyone who says that God does not exist is equally emotionally immature. Hitchens and Dawkins can't be atheists for the reason they say, no, it must be that they don't like God. In fact, they both say that God doesn't exist because they believe God doesn't exist. Now, they say that if he did exist, he wouldn't be worth worshiping. Do you understand the difference?

they have yet to even contemplate where that little tiny molecule came from that caused everything in the cosmos to come to order.

This is a fairly obvious question. Do you believe that your average scientist is so stupid that the question has never even crossed his mind? Is that really the point you're trying to get across, that you have so much contempt for every cosmologist out there? Given what you've written above, I think this is the only conclusion. You're unwilling to believe that people who disagree with you do so for real reasons. They're just angry.

 

[Israel]

The universe is mostly empty space and when it's filled, it mostly seem chaotic and wasteful. Life does not seem to abound, except on a thin, fragile sphere on an otherwise dead rock. Elsewhere, we see enormous explosions that are more likely to scour life than encourage it. There are large voids in which matter and energy are so scarce these areas might as well be completely empty.

I find no comparison between universes and VCRs. Every component in a VCR serves a purpose and a great deal of testing has been done to ensure that the thing will not simply explode when you plug it in. Perhaps if we regress to a geocentric model of the universe some comparison might be made. Everything therein was intended for a purpose, and the course of the planets were guided by God's hand itself. That I could compare to a VCR, but I know it's a young humanity's view of the universe. Frankly, it's only a lack of perspective that allows a person to look at the chaos and violence in the universe at large and think it's comparable to a clock in need of a maker.

The misunderstanding is that no one is saying that it happened by accident, full stop. It happened by accident only in the sense that it did not happen by someone's purpose, but this accident is not simply an unbiased random walk. For instance, no one really says that rain flows down by accident. Is it true that there are random influences in the water's path, but in following principles it tends to form patterns even if there is no designer. Some ancients thought that the gods dug out the rivers with the wheels of their chariots; now we know that they happen without any intervention.

In any case, science does not as a whole assert that the universe came about randomly. For all we know, this is a necessary universe and universal quantities could have taken no other values. There are philosophical problems empirical science cannot get beyond, so, even if some scientists go beyond their calling and become philosophers, we shouldn't take them too seriously as scientists.

Science does say that there are recognizable principles which guide the macroscopic effects of random variation, though. Gravity pulls together bits of matter and encourages complexity, slows entropy. Self-replicating structures become more common than structures which don't replicate. Those which have the capacity to replicate better, do. All of this makes sense if we have these principles. If we assume that there was a creator, all the chaos and violence still begs an explanation.

The point is that nothing made came about by chance or accident. How the Universe was made is not my concerning goal. But things we use in our lives gives testament that there had to be a Creator. The equipment that science uses to explore this world and beyond all had a plan and design behind it. And to explain the reason for chaos and violence seen can be summed up in free will. Once a person received a VCR, that person can choose to watch a video on making the world a better place, or a video on how to make a bomb to blow up a building!

 

[karuna]

The point is that nothing made came about by chance or accident.

Which is precisely what I addressed above. The reason your give for this assertion, namely that it looks like it's designed, won't fly with your average educated atheist who knows a little bit about his context in the universe.

How the Universe was made is not my concerning goal. But things we use in our lives gives testament that there had to be a Creator. The equipment that science uses to explore this world and beyond all had a plan and design behind it.

Right. We've created these things. This doesn't address the idea of the creation of the universe.

And to explain the reason for chaos and violence seen can be summed up in free will. Once a person received a VCR, that person can choose to watch a video on making the world a better place, or a video on how to make a bomb to blow up a building!

Free will doesn't explain black holes eating galaxies, for instance. I'm not talking about violence among humans - remember, I consider focusing on the earth alone to be myopic.

 

[phil36]

So what DO you say? Do you preach to them? Ignore them? What?

Hi resurrection, if you want you can visit the way of the master http://www.wayofthemaster.com, they cover all these topics of evangelizing, to atheist, work colleagues,next door nieghbours. you even see it being done in real life with videos.. watch how people react to the truth of the gospel when you speak to their conscience and not just their intellect.

Kind Regards

Phil

 

[Israel]

Which is precisely what I addressed above. The reason your give for this assertion, namely that it looks like it's designed, won't fly with your average educated atheist who knows a little bit about his context in the universe.

And what exactly is it that they know?

Right. We've created these things. This doesn't address the idea of the creation of the universe.

If life has no design or purpose, then let me ask you this hypothetical question: If someone you knew was extremely wealthy and you had the opportunity to kill that person for that wealth without anyone's knowledge and without the worries of being imprisoned, would you do it? And be honest with yourself.

Free will doesn't explain black holes eating galaxies, for instance. I'm not talking about violence among humans - remember, I consider focusing on the earth alone to be myopic.

Science cannot even come up with a concrete knowledge of how gravity works on the planet they live on, much less figure out the complexities of the universe! Have you or any scientist ever even seen a black hole? From what little knowledge I have of reading about them, they are invisible to the naked eye and only evidenced by the surrounding light and physical matter around them. Yet with all the theories surrounding black holes, scientists hold true to the faith that they do exist.

 

[Matalica]

If we argue that a long history makes a religion valid, then this is probably an argument Christians don't want to make. But, truth be told, having a large number of followers or existing for a while is mostly irrelevant as it comes to truth. Fortunately.

I know where your coming from, however I was speaking in the context of Acts 5:33-39;

33When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." NIV

Strictly speaking of the atheist kind who use the 'myth' reason for disbelief.

Matt

 

[mpaper345]

hello,

An atheist is hard to reach because they want proof of something before they believe it.You cannot reach them by telling them God loves them and Jesus is the savior of the world.
You have to reach them by prophesy which would be the best way.There is a man Carl Baugh who once was an atheist and believed in evolution but turned to God because he found out there was too many discrepencies in evolution that made him turn away from evolution.He now goes to show that things did not come about by evolution but a God created everything and it sounds like solid evidence.He has a web site on the internet.
You have to reach out to an atheist by trying to show them solid proof that God's word is true which you can do.
God said save some by compassion and save some by fear.You cannot always reach out to people in the same manner because it takes different things to influence different people.
Always remember no matter who the person is if they do not accept leave them alone.God does not like strive between people and if they are not going to listen God does not want you to argue with them.
Jesus said if they do not listen to what you are saying concerning God's word turn away from them.
God said do not reprove a scorner lest he hate you.
People that are scorners of God's word God said leave them alone because God does not want strive between people.A scorner is ot going to listen no matter what you say so it is doing no good to argue with them.
You will know when it gets to that point that you will have to stop trying to reach them.

Matt

 

[Matalica]

What I've resolved to say to atheist is 'it is the way it is'. Atheist are demanding proof of Gods existence, until they see HIM with their own eye's they are not going to believe in him no matter what I say, no matter if we discuss the complexities of the human brain to the endless supply of material in the universe.

When it really comes down to it we have proof of Gods existence, we sought it out and we see it. All you can tell an atheist is it is up to them to believe, not up to us to force them to believe.

And not wanting to believe in hell, IMO that speaks of a persons tolerance toward men who do evil things, like Hitler, Mousolini, the militant taliban, etc. Since these men will simply just die off without any consequences for their evil actions, ie. hell, then the atheist must have a oh well attitude, at least nothing happened to them.....we should do nothing to stop these evil men, just let them go on their way. What does that say about an atheist morals?

Matt

 

[karuna]

Which is precisely what I addressed above. The reason your give for this assertion, namely that it looks like it's designed, won't fly with your average educated atheist who knows a little bit about his context in the universe.

And what exactly is it that they know?

They know, for instance, that most of space is empty, that is mostly inhospitably to living beings, that there is a lot more chaos out there than order. That galaxies collide and destroy each other. That it looks like it would if someone tossed a handful out matter out there and left it to ferment. That it does not look like the inside of a VCR.

If life has no design or purpose, then let me ask you this hypothetical question: If someone you knew was extremely wealthy and you had the opportunity to kill that person for that wealth without anyone's knowledge and without the worries of being imprisoned, would you do it? And be honest with yourself.

I honestly don't know. I dislike violence and I'm not sure I could live with the trauma of killing. Regardless of the promise that I wouldn't be detected or imprisoned, I'm sure I'd live the rest of my life in (rich) paranoia. On the other hand, I would like the money. How much?

Science cannot even come up with a concrete knowledge of how gravity works on the planet they live on, much less figure out the complexities of the universe! Have you or any scientist ever even seen a black hole? From what little knowledge I have of reading about them, they are invisible to the naked eye and only evidenced by the surrounding light and physical matter around them. Yet with all the theories surrounding black holes, scientists hold true to the faith that they do exist.

This is a strange non-sequitur. When in the above have I asserted that science has a perfect model of the universe? Rather, what I've said is that the visible universe is not consistent with the idea that it is ordered, purposed. It looks more like a sparse sandstorm than a VCR. Is it possible that a galaxies colliding has some purpose? No doubt, but it doesn't look like it and it certainly isn't a shared feeling. Relying on it when proselytizing atheists is going to lead precisely here.

 

[Israel]

They know, for instance, that most of space is empty, that is mostly inhospitably to living beings, that there is a lot more chaos out there than order. That galaxies collide and destroy each other. That it looks like it would if someone tossed a handful out matter out there and left it to ferment. That it does not look like the inside of a VCR.



I honestly don't know. I dislike violence and I'm not sure I could live with the trauma of killing. Regardless of the promise that I wouldn't be detected or imprisoned, I'm sure I'd live the rest of my life in (rich) paranoia. On the other hand, I would like the money. How much?



This is a strange non-sequitur. When in the above have I asserted that science has a perfect model of the universe? Rather, what I've said is that the visible universe is not consistent with the idea that it is ordered, purposed. It looks more like a sparse sandstorm than a VCR. Is it possible that a galaxies colliding has some purpose? No doubt, but it doesn't look like it and it certainly isn't a shared feeling. Relying on it when proselytizing atheists is going to lead precisely here.

Isn't that in itself proof of intelligent design? Outside of our ordered galaxy is chaos! By mere chance, the only galaxy proven to harbor life is not!? And very funny on the 'how much' question, but have you ever wondered why, even if you KNEW you wouldn't get caught and would be rich, not fully believing in or understanding a Creator? If life is truly random and all we had was physical life and death, why are you even conscious of killing another person being wrong? It can't be simple instinct as the natural law of the jungle is survival of the fittest. You can't live with the trauma of killing another human because you are made in the image of the eternal Spirit of God. And a quality of that Spirit is love. What more evidence does one need to reflect on but of that which one can see in the mirror!

 

[karuna]

Isn't that in itself proof of intelligent design? Outside of our ordered galaxy is chaos! By mere chance, the only galaxy proven to harbor life is not!?

No. Life does not evolve where things tend to be exploding all the time. Life does evolve where things are much calmer. Therefore, if you find life where things are relatively calm, you shouldn't be surprised. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that our solar system, much less galaxy, are ordered. You realize, of course, that Earth has been pummeled a number of times by errant rocks. Fortunately, the big ones are few and far between.

And very funny on the 'how much' question, but have you ever wondered why, even if you KNEW you wouldn't get caught and would be rich, not fully believing in or understanding a Creator? If life is truly random and all we had was physical life and death, why are you even conscious of killing another person being wrong?

I never said it was wrong. I said I might not do it and I gave you a variety of reasons. These are two different things. You're getting too far ahead in your argument.

You can't live with the trauma of killing another human because you are made in the image of the eternal Spirit of God. And a quality of that Spirit is love.

Of course, any one of my answers could have been reinterpreted to fit your beliefs. I'm not sure why you even asked the hypothetical, knowing what you were going to do with the answers. Or was it so that you could reinterpret them?

What more evidence does one need to reflect on but of that which one can see in the mirror!

That's not actually a question, but, if it were, it would have good answers.

 

[Wootie]

You know what Israel? You sure are wasting alot of your life and time trying to figure all this out, timethat you could be spending with God. I truley pray that you can find peace and start concentrating on bring others & yourself closer to Christ before it is to late. God Bless You

 

[imoss]

Hi resurrection, if you want you can visit the way of the master http://www.wayofthemaster.com, they cover all these topics of evangelizing, to atheist, work colleagues,next door nieghbours. you even see it being done in real life with videos.. watch how people react to the truth of the gospel when you speak to their conscience and not just their intellect.

Kind Regards

Phil

SWEEEEET PHIL!!!! thanks for the link, my husband watches this every saturday nite at midnite & i always miss it cause I'm sleeping. God Bless you & you were definitely missed!

 

[Israel]

You know what Israel? You sure are wasting alot of your life and time trying to figure all this out, timethat you could be spending with God. I truley pray that you can find peace and start concentrating on bring others & yourself closer to Christ before it is to late. God Bless You

It's truly amazing how you can consider meditating on the Word of God wasting my life and time away. It is because of my faith and belief in Jesus that I can confidently question the doctrines of mainstream religion in comparison to the very word you also claim to believe in. I diligently seek Him. And I know that I will be rewarded for doing so as all who truly seek shall find. I'm not trying to glorify myself. To God be the glory! Funny how you question my serenity on a site that bans those that questions the insecurities or what some would call beliefs just for stating something contrary to them. If the light truly shines in darkness, then the truth next to a lie will make the lie apparent to all!