What do You think when... A cessationist encounters a continuationist?

[ForthAngel]

@ForthAngel,


and what of Scripture such as this?

Romans 8:26
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.


1 Corinthians 14: 2-4

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him;however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Romans 8:26 has nothing to do with tongues and cannot be interpreted that way. "Cannot be expressed with words" alone is enough to discredit the modern tongues since they consider what they do a "language" which by definition consists of words.

Look at the context:

Romans
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope [SUP]21 [/SUP]that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.[SUP]24 [/SUP]For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? [SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Creation groans. We groan. The Spirit groans. This is all in anticipation for Christ's return. Does the earth ever start babbling incoherently? Ever see a rabbit do it? Or a cat? What about you when you groan? What's that like? There is no way this can be used to propagate modern tongues. Scripture interprets scripture. The gift of tongues is without a doubt human languages according to Acts 2. There is no secret language mentioned anywhere in the bible.

1 Corinthians 14:2-4 is Paul correcting the church of Corinth for misunderstanding and misusing gifts. We already know from Acts 2 what the gift of tongues is. It's plainly stated there that it is human languages. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. The bible teaches against self-edification, therefore the tongues being practiced by the church at Corinth were in vain and useless. Paul was telling them to stop.

Paul says this in Romans:

Romans 14:19
19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding [edification].

Why would he contradict himself?

 

[elf3]

Hi Elf3.

I smiled at your post. Is your services open for all or just kaylagirl ?


@ ALL

I just want to thank all of you for your responses and most of you have respected what I asked you to do and furthermore have let go and been kind about my strict streamlining.


I am very grateful.

Thank you for doing that.

I know how hard it is ! Much love to you in Christ,

Rachel

It's open to all..I like mail

 

[Descyple]

What happens when a cessationist encounters a continuationist?

A lot of Stop Signs are created!!!

Get it? Stop (cessationist), Signs (continuationist)


Sorry Rachel20, I'll be quiet now.

 

[Rachel20]

OK time to put out my personal experience. *aaaaah *


When I first became a Christian, learning and grasping for things, I attended non denominational and Pentecostal churches to understand the spirituality that they talked about.

Let me tell you, I am SO AGAINST all this prosperity, teaching, word of faith and all kinds of hyper spirituality that has sprung up that defines Christianity.

People talk about seeking signs and wonders, but where’s the talk about forgiveness, repentance and humility? Where is the talk about the price of following Jesus and the cross?

One of the churches that I went had a Holy Spirit Baptism service. I stayed back for this service and I recall for three other services prior where pastors would put their hands on people and pray and ask people to speak in tongues.

I was told that , the gift of tongues happened right after salvation and it was even considered a sign of being saved.

Imagine my frustration when the people were going around praying and speaking in “tongues” nothing was happening to me.

“Vocalize your faith”, a pastor said.

What? How do I vocalize I thought. “Speak a few words’”

I tried. They were all English. I felt in some way that there was something wrong with me.
I was not having enough faith.

When I mentioned that to a pastor, he then told me, “the gift has been uploaded, it’s just not downloaded yet.”

-___-


I was so devastated that God had not given me the gift of tongues despite praying so much.

I felt hurt and betrayed.

I now firmly believe that people talking about chasing after signs and wonders, or preaching the necessity of the gift of tongues to all believers are harming people more than anything.

I am highly skeptical of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However in recent times, I have been going to a church or rather a “prayer meeting” in a slum.

The people (mostly women ) who attend this are illiterate and Hindus even.

They come there however because they seek healing that does happen in those meetings.
Some are demon possessed however there is no noise , screaming or shouting.

Everyone quietly prays, the man who holds it in his house, doing so for hours, kneeling and praying to God.

[ Let me just state that I come from India a country with a lot of mysticism.
Demonic activities, demon possession and all kinds of spiritual hullaballoo is not a new thing.

India has been a country practicing pantheism for thousands of centuries with all kinds of demon worship. Black magic, idolatory and witchcraft is commonplace. ]

The place is open to anyone.

No one takes any money. It’s nothing.
Just praying, in the name of Jesus.

There's no "OH I GOT HEALED!!! LET ME TALK ABOUT IT, I FELT WARM IN THIS PART OF MY BODY"

Also, keeping in mind my own personal experiences, having encountered many people who have prayed in tongues and have said encouraging words to me, I do think God still speaks to His people.

It’s hard to even explain at times, how I’ve felt God. It’s so personal and I’ve shared it only with a few, but I now know that God is above all man made distinctions.

I am not sure any longer if I can say for sure how God works.

My answer is I do not know.

Just we test everything with Scripture.

I still don't speak in tongues. However I would be a liar if I said I haven't witnessed it. Hence I would not say it has ceased.

So I am not a continuationist or a cessationist. I am an inbetween-ist/don’t know-ist.

 

[Rachel20]

@ForthAngel.


Do You mind if I get back to you on that a little later? I still need to study it a bit more




@ Descyple.

Hear! Hear

Thanks for the laugh, friend.

 

[elf3]

While I agree with your first piece of advice, if she writes a letter flaming me and sends it to you, that would be gossip would it not I would rather her send it to me personally and we can discuss it civilly, rather than her needing to talk trash about me behind my back.

To give people who were offended an idea of what I was talking about:



There is no room for another interpretation here. None. Scripture is clear that these were either a) Human languages miraculously learned by the speaker or b) The speaker speaking in their native language and the hearers miraculously hearing their own language. Compare what we see today with this, and it falls hard.

About the miracles. Here is an example of a biblical miracle:



This was a bonafide miracle. This man was probably seen by many people for 30 years and without a doubt could not walk, at all. He was healed instantly and got up and walked. We do not see b blind, lame, or paralyzed people being healed today. Only unverifiable stories. There is not one single verifiable account, or anyone willing to provide evidence that a real miracle has taken place. Minor aches and pains, or someone who has a non-disabling infirmity are not what we see in the bible. This is vanity. We see legitimately crippled people healed instantly in scripture.

Oh yeah she should send it to you so you both can "discuss" for sure. The reason I mentioned the "sending to me" was for only one reason....the "send" button has an odd way of bringing relief. Me and another guy on here do that every now and then for this odd "send button reilef" that seems to occur lol. We never use these messages as a type of "gossip". We title those type of messages as "grrr" and I have never once read one of these "grrr" messages he sent me. As far as I know he never read one of mine either. Yeah I know I know sounds goofy but seems to work if needed (for us anyway).

 

[elf3]

OK time to put out my personal experience. *aaaaah *


When I first became a Christian, learning and grasping for things, I attended non denominational and Pentecostal churches to understand the spirituality that they talked about.

Let me tell you, I am SO AGAINST all this prosperity, teaching, word of faith and all kinds of hyper spirituality that has sprung up that defines Christianity.

People talk about seeking signs and wonders, but where’s the talk about forgiveness, repentance and humility? Where is the talk about the price of following Jesus and the cross?

One of the churches that I went had a Holy Spirit Baptism service. I stayed back for this service and I recall for three other services prior where pastors would put their hands on people and pray and ask people to speak in tongues.

I was told that , the gift of tongues happened right after salvation and it was even considered a sign of being saved.

Imagine my frustration when the people were going around praying and speaking in “tongues” nothing was happening to me.

“Vocalize your faith”, a pastor said.

What? How do I vocalize I thought. “Speak a few words’”

I tried. They were all English. I felt in some way that there was something wrong with me.
I was not having enough faith.

When I mentioned that to a pastor, he then told me, “the gift has been uploaded, it’s just not downloaded yet.”

-___-


I was so devastated that God had not given me the gift of tongues despite praying so much.

I felt hurt and betrayed.

I now firmly believe that people talking about chasing after signs and wonders, or preaching the necessity of the gift of tongues to all believers are harming people more than anything.

I am highly skeptical of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However in recent times, I have been going to a church or rather a “prayer meeting” in a slum.

The people (mostly women ) who attend this are illiterate and Hindus even.

They come there however because they seek healing that does happen in those meetings.
Some are demon possessed however there is no noise , screaming or shouting.

Everyone quietly prays, the man who holds it in his house, doing so for hours, kneeling and praying to God.

[ Let me just state that I come from India a country with a lot of mysticism.
Demonic activities, demon possession and all kinds of spiritual hullaballoo is not a new thing.

India has been a country practicing pantheism for thousands of centuries with all kinds of demon worship. Black magic, idolatory and witchcraft is commonplace. ]

The place is open to anyone.

No one takes any money. It’s nothing.
Just praying, in the name of Jesus.

There's no "OH I GOT HEALED!!! LET ME TALK ABOUT IT, I FELT WARM IN THIS PART OF MY BODY"

Also, keeping in mind my own personal experiences, having encountered many people who have prayed in tongues and have said encouraging words to me, I do think God still speaks to His people.

It’s hard to even explain at times, how I’ve felt God. It’s so personal and I’ve shared it only with a few, but I now know that God is above all man made distinctions.

I am not sure any longer if I can say for sure how God works.

My answer is I do not know.

Just we test everything with Scripture.

I still don't speak in tongues. However I would be a liar if I said I haven't witnessed it. Hence I would not say it has ceased.

So I am not a continuationist or a cessationist. I am an inbetween-ist/don’t know-ist.

Oh heck yeah!! All that "only saved if" stuff is very detrimental to the true Gospel of Christ. If I am only saved if I speak tongues or can heal someone then I am in serious trouble. I was taught that through Christ I was saved not whether I can heal or speak in tongues ect ect. And if we need "worldy" wealth or health to be saved I am in major serious I am doomed trouble.

It's the true Gospel of Christ that needs taught. Not any of this other "hocus pocus" dance on your fingers, spin on your head do the hoky poky junk.

 

[Rachel20]

Oh heck yeah!! All that "only saved if" stuff is very detrimental to the true Gospel of Christ. If I am only saved if I speak tongues or can heal someone then I am in serious trouble. I was taught that through Christ I was saved not whether I can heal or speak in tongues ect ect. And if we need "worldy" wealth or health to be saved I am in major serious I am doomed trouble.

It's the true Gospel of Christ that needs taught. Not any of this other "hocus pocus" dance on your fingers, spin on your head do the hoky poky junk.

Some of that extreme , hyper spirituality is really painful.

Keep jumping into some strange things in these movements - like "grave sucking" and "glory clouds".


The point is God has to be glorified. Not us.


It is Jesus and the message of the cross... It is to do things for the least of our brothers and sisters.
[Matthew 25:40]


It is all for Him.​

 

[Desdichado]

The cessationism I hold to is different than most. Why? A proper theology hinges on the twin truths of God's sovereignty and man's fallen state.

God rarely changes how He deals with people. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New. We find God communicates through both the mundane and the miraculous. More often than not though, it is the mundane so God gave us scriptures to aid our finite minds in navigating and understanding the mundane (mainly thinking of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes).

The fact the Bible itself has been finished allowing for no "jot or tittle" establishes that things now are more mundane now than they were when the Bible was written.

That does not mean though that visions, tongues, etc are completely out of the picture. God being the great sovereign he is can speak to people and reach them in whatever way He likes.

That said, the Christian is to rely on the Holy Spirit for a sense of discernment combined with our God-given ability to reason. Growing up, I went to a church that dabbled in continuationist dogma. I've seen students slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues, and sharing visions. None of these visions came to pass. Prophecies uttered about my path in life could have been made by my staunch Calvinist great grandfather by use of his cerebrum alone. The tongues bore no resemblance to how they were explained in the Bible and seemed to make even less sense to the people who tried them. Being slain in the spirit was considered a cheap high for the teens. Faith healing appeared to be a rush of dopamine that gave the "healed" false hope and, even worse, fostered anger at God.

That said, my great-grandmother spoke in tongues to my unsaved father. It had a life-changing impact on him. I know a woman who was healed of ALS via faith healing.

My point is this: the Lord works in mysterious ways. More radical cessationists are wrong to say that sort of thing doesn't happen at all. Evidence exists in life and in the Bible that proves otherwise. The opposite extreme though appears to be more dangerous in that it places importance on unusual spiritual phenomena than it does the core truths of the Gospel.

For that reason, my general inclination is to presume that tongues, prophecy, etc are men being men and not a work of God, but not without a little openness to the possibility that it could indeed be Christ.

 

[Desdichado]

As someone who is part Jewish (on mother's side no less), I'm glad God doesn't work quite that way anymore.

"Honey, I can't go to work today. God showed up last night and I really have to add a new book to the Bible."

"Can it wait? We're having the Rochenbauer's over for bridge!"

"No darling, it's scripture...Oh snap! Do we own any pens that work?"

"Not since Eli took up accounting."

 

[elf3]

Some of that extreme , hyper spirituality is really painful.

Keep jumping into some strange things in these movements - like "grave sucking" and "glory clouds".


The point is God has to be glorified. Not us.


It is Jesus and the message of the cross... It is to do things for the least of our brothers and sisters.
[Matthew 25:40]


It is all for Him.​

It's not whether we are cess or cont but if we have accepted Jesus as or Lord and Savior. To add anything to this Biblical fact is to do a serious injustice to Jesus.

As Desdichado said "God works in mysterious ways". Some of God's ways are so beyond our understanding (Isaiah 55:8,9) that it just takes faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jruiz]

My mom speaks In tongues. She calls it praying in the spirit...she'll use it for spiritual warfare,for a break through in prayer or praying against something..sometimes she'll get a vision of person she doesn't know and uses this mystery prayer language to pray for them,some of these people are in an other countries...just random people. Growing up hearing my mom speak in tongues did seem a little nutty lol but just because I don't understand it or received this gift doesn't mean it's not there...she also says the bible talks about praying in a mystery tongue?? Also I been to several differant churches,Baptist,Lutheran,church of Christ...but I never seen God move like in a Pentecostal church. Also! Everyone can hear God's voice...God spoke to me 4 days ago..told me to go get my note book and told me words to write down! Having a relationship with God is hearing his voice. It's being in communion with him.I believe everyone can prophesy..but revelation and prophecy is two differant things...and I also believe in the gift of revelation. It's so sad that alot of Christians think God is this vain concepts without even realizing it..like he can't do I anything,no wonder why you are not hearing from him. I serve the God of Abraham,the God of Moses,Jeremiah..the same God who create the earth,walked on water,split the ocean in two,healed the blind and claims he can do the Impossible! What God do you serve that can't speak to his own children?? Your missing out....

Excuse my typos....

 

[kaylagrl]

While I agree with your first piece of advice, if she writes a letter flaming me and sends it to you, that would be gossip would it not I would rather her send it to me personally and we can discuss it civilly, rather than her needing to talk trash about me behind my back.

To give people who were offended an idea of what I was talking about:



There is no room for another interpretation here. None. Scripture is clear that these were either a) Human languages miraculously learned by the speaker or b) The speaker speaking in their native language and the hearers miraculously hearing their own language. Compare what we see today with this, and it falls hard.

About the miracles. Here is an example of a biblical miracle:



This was a bonafide miracle. This man was probably seen by many people for 30 years and without a doubt could not walk, at all. He was healed instantly and got up and walked. We do not see b blind, lame, or paralyzed people being healed today. Only unverifiable stories. There is not one single verifiable account, or anyone willing to provide evidence that a real miracle has taken place. Minor aches and pains, or someone who has a non-disabling infirmity are not what we see in the bible. This is vanity. We see legitimately crippled people healed instantly in scripture.

Dont worry I will not flame you behind your back.I tend to be direct.But I like to discuss not just argue

 

[kaylagrl]

Romans 8:26 has nothing to do with tongues and cannot be interpreted that way. "Cannot be expressed with words" alone is enough to discredit the modern tongues since they consider what they do a "language" which by definition consists of words.

Look at the context:



Creation groans. We groan. The Spirit groans. This is all in anticipation for Christ's return. Does the earth ever start babbling incoherently? Ever see a rabbit do it? Or a cat? What about you when you groan? What's that like? There is no way this can be used to propagate modern tongues. Scripture interprets scripture. The gift of tongues is without a doubt human languages according to Acts 2. There is no secret language mentioned anywhere in the bible.

1 Corinthians 14:2-4 is Paul correcting the church of Corinth for misunderstanding and misusing gifts. We already know from Acts 2 what the gift of tongues is. It's plainly stated there that it is human languages. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. The bible teaches against self-edification, therefore the tongues being practiced by the church at Corinth were in vain and useless. Paul was telling them to stop.

Paul says this in Romans:

Romans 14:19
19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding [edification].

Why would he contradict himself?

Oh no! I dont believe tongues is a secret language at all!! It is the human language.Dont misunderstand.And it is free to all.

 

[Rachel20]

Wow.

Thank you all for your responses. You have been candid and shared personal experiences and I am really grateful for that.

Also, I just want to thank you guys for not turning it into mud fest where we all just lost our tempers at each other. Thank you for showing that restraint.
I know I asked a lot from some of you.

Thank you for being so respectful.

However, I have to admit that I am a little drained out starting this.

It's late here, around 2 AM, and though I am reading your replies, I lack the energy to respond to every thing.


So.


I am going to sleep and if any of you wants to post links and paste opinions, go ahead.

I am closing my eyes.
[My aim was never to hurt anyone, but just to reach a place of reflection.]


Regards to those of you posting, keeping this topic in mind.

Much love in Christ

Rachel


[Btw. My first popular thread in Bible Discussion Forum! Yay!!!!! ]

 

[elf3]

Wow.

Thank you all for your responses. You have been candid and shared personal experiences and I am really grateful for that.

Also, I just want to thank you guys for not turning it into mud fest where we all just lost our tempers at each other. Thank you for showing that restraint.
I know I asked a lot from some of you.

Thank you for being so respectful.

However, I have to admit that I am a little drained out starting this.

It's late here, around 2 AM, and though I am reading your replies, I lack the energy to respond to every thing.


So.


I am going to sleep and if any of you wants to post links and paste opinions, go ahead.

I am closing my eyes.
[My aim was never to hurt anyone, but just to reach a place of reflection.]


Regards to those of you posting, keeping this topic in mind.

Much love in Christ

Rachel


[Btw. My first popular thread in Bible Discussion Forum! Yay!!!!! ]

It's too cold here for a "mud fest". The ground is frozen

Well this is a good discussion and congrats on your first "popular" thread.

Good night God bless sleep well

 

[breno785au]

What's a cessationist and a contintenlismist? These labels we make for ourselves, ugh, I almost don't wanna know

 

[Stephen63]

OK time to put out my personal experience. *aaaaah *


When I first became a Christian, learning and grasping for things, I attended non denominational and Pentecostal churches to understand the spirituality that they talked about.

Let me tell you, I am SO AGAINST all this prosperity, teaching, word of faith and all kinds of hyper spirituality that has sprung up that defines Christianity.

Good for you! you can see the difference...... & probably "feel/sense" the difference as well.

People talk about seeking signs and wonders, but where’s the talk about forgiveness, repentance and humility? Where is the talk about the price of following Jesus and the cross?

One of the churches that I went had a Holy Spirit Baptism service. I stayed back for this service and I recall for three other services prior where pastors would put their hands on people and pray and ask people to speak in tongues.

I was told that , the gift of tongues happened right after salvation and it was even considered a sign of being saved.

Imagine my frustration when the people were going around praying and speaking in “tongues” nothing was happening to me.

“Vocalize your faith”, a pastor said.

What? How do I vocalize I thought. “Speak a few words’”

I tried. They were all English. I felt in some way that there was something wrong with me.
I was not having enough faith.

When I mentioned that to a pastor, he then told me, “the gift has been uploaded, it’s just not downloaded yet.”

-___-


I was so devastated that God had not given me the gift of tongues despite praying so much.

I felt hurt and betrayed.

I now firmly believe that people talking about chasing after signs and wonders, or preaching the necessity of the gift of tongues to all believers are harming people more than anything.

I am highly skeptical of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good! You need to be. While you haven't spoke in tongues (don't need to), you obviously have experienced being led by the Holy Spirit. That "deep-down urgency" in your heart that something isn't right.

However in recent times, I have been going to a church or rather a “prayer meeting” in a slum.

The people (mostly women ) who attend this are illiterate and Hindus even.

They come there however because they seek healing that does happen in those meetings.
Some are demon possessed however there is no noise , screaming or shouting.

Everyone quietly prays, the man who holds it in his house, doing so for hours, kneeling and praying to God.

[ Let me just state that I come from India a country with a lot of mysticism.
Demonic activities, demon possession and all kinds of spiritual hullaballoo is not a new thing.

India has been a country practicing pantheism for thousands of centuries with all kinds of demon worship. Black magic, idolatory and witchcraft is commonplace. ]

The place is open to anyone.

No one takes any money. It’s nothing.
Just praying, in the name of Jesus.

There's no "OH I GOT HEALED!!! LET ME TALK ABOUT IT, I FELT WARM IN THIS PART OF MY BODY"

Also, keeping in mind my own personal experiences, having encountered many people who have prayed in tongues and have said encouraging words to me, I do think God still speaks to His people.

It’s hard to even explain at times, how I’ve felt God. It’s so personal and I’ve shared it only with a few, but I now know that God is above all man made distinctions.

I am not sure any longer if I can say for sure how God works.

My answer is I do not know.

Just we test everything with Scripture.

I still don't speak in tongues. However I would be a liar if I said I haven't witnessed it. Hence I would not say it has ceased.

So I am not a continuationist or a cessationist. I am an inbetween-ist/don’t know-ist.

There's one simple way to prove/determine if a "spiritual" encounter is Holy Spirit-led or false spirit-led. The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS work in a christian's life to spiritually build up the body of Christ & add souls to the kingdom of God. When I say build up, I mean promote someone to be better in their relationship with Christ.The scripture's word is edification.

Acts 9 :27-31, Romans 14:19, Romans 15:2, 1 Corinthians 8:1 1 Corinthians 10:23 1 Corinthians 14:3 1 Corinthians 14:4, 5 1 Corinthians 14:12, 1 Corinthians 14:26, 2 Corinthians 10:8, 2 Corinthians 12:19, 2 Corinthians 13:10,Ephesians 4:11-16, Ephesians 4:29, 1 Timothy 1:4


If you notice, more is said to the Corinthian church than any other, because this church had all the problems abusing the gifts & walking in ignorance about the things of the Spirit. The modern church would do well to study these books.

 

[dcontroversal]

The words cease, vanish away and fail are pretty clear...so are the words and now ABIDETH faith, hope and love

 

[Angela53510]

Busy day at church and visiting family, so I am just putting in my two cents worth.

I was a continuationist when I first got saved, and for 15 years after. I know that the Holy Spirit entered my heart and life from the moment I got saved, and I never did receive any sort of "second" baptism in the Holy Spirit, although I did "think" I could speak in tongues.

I will admit I saw one incredible miracle, when a man was preaching the gospel from a Fijian Hindu background, and he spoke 4 words in an unknown tongue. At the end of the meeting a man came up to the front and he had a napkin, and he asked this man, "Why didn't you say you spoke Armenian?" On the napkin were the 4 words, written in Armenian which said, "Jesus Christ is Lord" Well, of course the speaker did not speak Armenian. But he was an evangelist, and he lead him to the Lord. Then this new Christian made the evangelist speak with his entire family and 27 people were saved! So I would consider that a bona fide miracle.

So why did I move over to a cessationist viewpoint? Well for one thing, the evangelist cheated on his wife and became a gambler and a drunk. He would drink and gamble all week, then visit churches to preach the gospel. Sorry, that didn't work for me. And I saw so many fake gifts, people babblng, claiming healings who were not healed, and I watched a close friend die of cancer, because she moved out of classical Pentecostalism into the heresy of the Word Faith movement.

I got really tired of broken, hurting people pretending that life was perfect, because they had supposedly been "baptised" in the Holy Spirit. Just too many lies, too much fakery, drawing attention to self and generally disturbed and out of order services.

God called me to a Baptist church, which seemed to fit my theology much better. There was a sense of quiet and peace in worship, and the extra-biblical revelation, most of which was made up lies, was gone.

So I became for all intents and purposes a cessationist.

Now that does not mean I limit God. I do not put him in a box, or tell him what to do. I believe that 4 words spoken in an unknown tongue brought an extended family to Christ. But it was never a show, or pretending, it was a miracle of God. I still think God can do anything he wants, regardless of where we sit on the charismatic fence.

But, my personal opinion, at least in Canada, that 99% of all the charismatic gifts are so much bunk! I saw one thing happen that was real, the rest was utter unbiblical nonsense.

To say nothing of the fact, that almost every person I know in my Baptist experience is just as much, or more filled with the Holy Spirit than all the rah-rah and razamataz in the shows put on by charismatic people.

I do not believe it is Scriptural to say that the Holy Spirit comes after conversion.While the Holy Spirit touches our lifes every day, there is no extra or second blessing. There are actually only 5 incidents in the book of Acts that involve speaking in tongues, and the Holy Spirit comes before, during and after conversion. I think most tongues today are nonsense. Apparently you can get CD's to teach you how to speak in tongues!! So is this a gift of the Holy Spirit, or merely a manipulative device to make people feel bad who cannot babble publicly, or pretend to do so, to save face in Pentecostal churches?

So yes, I think God is able to move and do things according to his good purposes. But most of what goes on in continuist churches is just pure delusion. I am quite happy to be quiet before the Lord.

"For God alone my soul waits in silence;
from him comes my salvation.
2 He alone is my rock and my salvation,
my fortress; I shall not be greatly shaken." Psalm 62:1-2

This is the Biblical way to hear from God, OT and NT!