What is the Messianic Kingdom?

[Abiding]

Check out this clay thing:

"But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." - Isaiah 64:8

This one is extra cool:
"Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." - Jeremiah 18:1-4

"And in the days of these kings [Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...." - Daniel 2:44

Col 1:13 "...hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into thekingdom of his dear Son." - Colossians 1:13

"They shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." - Daniel 2:43

Watch:
..The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands...For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass." - Ezra 9:2

"I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." - Genesis 17:7
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16
Jesus said there will be other sheep but one flock
Paul said:"...hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth...." - Acts 17:26
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the [physical] seed of Abraham, are they all children...they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8

"he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly...but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...."- Romans 2:29
In this way, God was able to fulfill His promises to redeem Israel, and to set up a kingdom which shall never end, His kingdom arrived "in the days of these kings" (Daniel 2:44)

God made it again into another vessel. A new covenant. A new kingdom.

 

[Abiding]

I think Rome is getting way too much attention

 

[zone]

I think Rome is getting way too much attention

welp, if my inkling on Rev 17 is right, she's still a go.
mother's helper.

 

[Bookends]

hi Bookends...what about this possibility: the Clay mingled with the Iron (Rome) is the Herod Family/Dynasty.

the Herods ruled specifically in Israel at the time the specific 10 Horns (Caesers) ruled the empire. which makes them important figures that are always overlooked.

and i think the point is that they all were crushed by The Stone, Jesus.

the Kingdom, His Kingdom, for His people (whoever they are who have Him to rule over them - believe upon Him) will never have another King.
The Kingdom will not be given to another. i guess you have to know the King Personally at this time.

anyways....just some thoughts:



Daniel 7:7
"After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Ten Horns/Kings/Caesars

1) Augustus
2) Tiberius
3) Caligula
4) Claudius
5) Nero
6) Galba
7) Otho
8) Vitellius
9) Vespasian
10) Titus

ex:

Luke 2
1In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration whena Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3And all went to be registered, each to his own town. 4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5to be registered with Mary, his betrothed,b who was with child. 6And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn


the Ten Horns are concurrent with the 7 Heads/With 7 Crowns

Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.


1) Herod Antipater
2) Herod The Great
3) Herod Archelaus
4) Herod Antipas
5) Herod Philip
6) Herod Aristobulus
7) Herod Agrippa I

ex:

Matthew 2:
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Herod Kills the Children
16Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. 17Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:

18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
weeping and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”

~


Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

~

so...ya
i dunno. makes the most sense to me. IN THE DAYS OF ALL THOSE KINGS...The Caesars and the Herods.

the Herods and Caesars are continually in it together, running around trying to kill Jesus and the Christians. in Israel.
so...ya. just seems like they all fit into the whole wrap up for the Promises, including the end of the Old Covenant in reality in 70Ad with Titus.


plus this part:

Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men

kinda matches this in more than one place:

His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.


i do believe there's a glimpse at the final days events in Revelation 17:9.
it isn't the same as the above, and
i'm not going into it here.

tty
z

excuse typos etc

Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

the Herods claimed to be Kings of The Jews.

It's a possibility Zone, but some things still seem outa whack, which the first beast coming out of the sea too me suggest that it was Rome itself, which of coarse was across the Mediterranean Sea. And starting in Rev. 13:11 came another beast, that came out of the land, which to me suggests Israel, who had two horns (high priests) like a lamb (these high at this point spoke and acted on behalf of Jesus or thought they did, by the continuation of the ceremonial laws in which Christ fulfulled) and spoke like a dragon...This gives me a picture of wolves in sheeps' clothing. I'll have to looking to my notes on this again and see if any revision is necessary, because what you say about the herods seems good. It's kinda like a beast within a beast...I'll check into it. Thanks

 

[Bookends]

Dont forget col 1:13"...hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into thekingdom of his dear Son." - Colossians 1:13

AMEN!!

 

[zone]

It's a possibility Zone, but some things still seem outa whack, which the first beast coming out of the sea too me suggest that it was Rome itself, which of coarse was across the Mediterranean Sea. And starting in Rev. 13:11 came another beast, that came out of the land, which to me suggests Israel, who had two horns (high priests) like a lamb (these high at this point spoke and acted on behalf of Jesus or thought they did, by the continuation of the ceremonial laws in which Christ fulfulled) and spoke like a dragon...This gives me a picture of wolves in sheeps' clothing. I'll have to looking to my notes on this again and see if any revision is necessary, because what you say about the herods seems good. It's kinda like a beast within a beast...I'll check into it. Thanks

mkay.
no need for revision cuz i don't know for sure.
but it all has to fit inside the known world of the time (Roman Empire), and into the time frame for the Stone to crash down the metal man.

i don't know why we pass over the Herods when they were so integral to the whole conspiracy.
i think it's good to know about them.

anyways, re: the sea - i just think it means the nations surrounding Jerusalem at that time.

the woman Jerusalem is said to sit on many waters...in the midst of the sea of peoples.
God said He placed Jerusalem at the center of the 'world', with the nations all around.

so ya, Rome arose out of the sea of peoples surrounding Jerusalem....totally surrounded her completely.

here we go with the end of the remains from Old Covenant and the Kingdom taken away/expanded....like it or not.
that's what that arch of Titus shows.

and i think you're right that the beast coming up out of the earth, the earth is the land...and was Israel.

whoever the bad guy might have been i do not yet know.

Stillwaters proposed a convincing antichrist/bad guy candidate: Messiah Menahem/Manahem, the son of Judas

but i dunno.
i haven't followed up...it sounds good to me
maybe he was Herodian...he-e-e-e-e-y....
i better look into it.

 

[Abiding]

Many are of the opinion that the "Menahem" recorded in the Mishnah is the one recounted in Josephus' (Antiquities of the Jews, b. 19, Ch. 10:5), where a story is told about a 'Menahem' of the Essene's sect. According to Josephus, when Menahem saw young Herod the Great going to school he clapped him on the back and addressed him as king, announcing to him that he would reign successfully,[SUP][1][/SUP] despite Herod not being in the line of the royal dynasty. When Herod became king, he asked Menahem how long his reign would be. Initially, Menahem didn't reply, and Herod urged him "Would my reign last ten years?". Menahem replied that Herod would reign at least 30 years, but did not specify the exact number. Herod was pleased with Menahem's answer and dismissed him with a clasp of the hand and thenceforth bestowed special honors upon the Essenes.[SUP][1]

[/SUP]According to Flavius Josephus, the scholar Menahem was the son ofJudas the Galilean, but on chronological grounds, this seems unlikely. He may have been his grandson. His ministry took place at the beginning of the war against the Romans, when the Jews had not yet expelled their enemies fromJerusalem.

In the mean time, one Menahem, the son of that Judas, who was called the Galilean [...] took some of the men of note with him, and retired to Masada, where he broke open king Herod's armory, and gave arms not only to his own people, but to other robbers also. These he made use of for a guard, and returned in the state of a king to Jerusalem; he became the leader of the sedition. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433-434)​

After this, Menahem captured the governor's palace at Jerusalem, laid siege to some minor Roman fortifications and ordered the execution of the high priest. He was now the only leader of the Jewish revolt, and could boast remarkable successes. However, the son of the high priest, Eleasar, was the leader of the temple guard and Menahem's deadly enemy.

The overthrow of the places of strength, and the death of the high priest Ananias, so puffed up Menahem, that he became barbarously cruel; and as he thought he had no antagonist to dispute the management of affairs with him, he was no better than an insupportable tyrant. But Eleasar and his party [...] made an assault upon him in the temple, for he went up thither to worship in a pompous manner, and adorned with royal garments, and had his followers with him in their armor. Eleasar and his party fell violently upon him, as did also the rest of the people; taking up stones to attack him withal, they threw them at the scholar, and thought, that if he were once ruined, the entire sedition would fall to the ground. Menahem and his party made resistance for a while, but when they perceived that the whole multitude were falling upon them, they fled which way every one was able; those that were caught were slain, and those that hid themselves were searched for. A few of them escaped privately to Masada [...]. As for Menahem himself, he ran away to the place called Ophla, and there lay skulking in private; but they took him alive, and drew him out before them all; they then tortured him with many sorts of torments, and after all slew him, as they did by those that were captains under him also.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.442-448]​

Comment: There is no need to doubt whether Menahem claimed to be the Messiah. He was a warrior, entered Jerusalem dressed as a king, quarreled with the high priest (who may have entertained some doubts about Menahem's claim), and worshipped God in the Temple. We can be positive that Menahem wanted to be the sole ruler of a restored Israel. There are no indications that his rule was regarded as the inauguration of the end of times, but this was, of course, not necessary.

 

[zone]

Many are of the opinion that the "Menahem" recorded in the Mishnah is the one recounted in Josephus' (Antiquities of the Jews, b. 19, Ch. 10:5), where a story is told about a 'Menahem' of the Essene's sect. According to Josephus, when Menahem saw young Herod the Great going to school he clapped him on the back and addressed him as king, announcing to him that he would reign successfully,[SUP][1][/SUP] despite Herod not being in the line of the royal dynasty. When Herod became king, he asked Menahem how long his reign would be. Initially, Menahem didn't reply, and Herod urged him "Would my reign last ten years?". Menahem replied that Herod would reign at least 30 years, but did not specify the exact number. Herod was pleased with Menahem's answer and dismissed him with a clasp of the hand and thenceforth bestowed special honors upon the Essenes.[SUP][1][/SUP]

oh....wow.
okay.
back to menahem.
top of the list.

Essenes
Connections with Kabbalah
According to a Jewish legend, one of the Essenes, named Menachem, had passed at least some of his mystical knowledge to the Talmudic mystic Nehunya ben HaKanah,[59] to whom the Kabbalistic tradition attributes Sefer HaBahir and, by some opinions, Sefer HaKanah, Sefer HaPeliah and Sefer HaTemunah. Some Essene rituals, such as daily immersion in the mikveh, coincide with contemporary Hasidic practices; some historians had also suggested, that name "Essene" is a Hellenized form of the word "Hasidim" or "Hasid" ("pious ones"). However, the legendary connections between Essene and Kabbalistic tradition are not verified by modern historians.

Essenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

 

[Elin]

sorry Elin if this is a derailment....
it all kinda blends together i guess.
zone

No derailment. . .to the point.

 

[Elin]

skipping half a passage and twisting the rest

Red herring.

It's not about skipping and twisiting, it's about your not addressing Daniel's interpretation in 2:44-45.

1) In the time of those kings (Da 2:44) - the kings typified in the vision of the statue in Da 2, between 626 BC and 476 AD.

2) the God of heaven set up a kingdom (Da 2:44) - that is the kingdom set up by Christ at his first coming during the Roman empire of 63 BC to 476 AD.

3) it will endure forever (Da 2:44) - there will be no other Messianic kingdom in the sphere of time

4) this is the meaning of the rock. . .that broke the iron and the clay (Da 2:45)

The iron and the clay were both broken by the rock, which was the fifth kingdom, set up by God, during the time of those kings, which was between 626 BC and 476 AD.

Daniel's interpretation of the four kingdoms does not allow for a separation of the Roman empire into two kingdoms, one of iron, and millennia later, another of clay to become a fifth kingdom in the statue.

That is your private interpretation which disagrees with Daniel's interpretation.

So drop the red herring of skipping and twisting, and address the points of Daniel's intepretation presented above.


[No takers here?]