What is truth and who is of it?

[know1]

C O N T E X T

It's key--

Verse upon verse, line upon line, precept upon precept reveals the truth.

Why so many differences? Because a lot of christians take things out of context.


For example- the oft quoted saying 'where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst of them'

This gets quoted and used in all sorts of situations.. just where christians gather.. any place any time.. but the actual quote in Matthew 18:20 is in the context of -

Resolving disputes in a local church family!

The whole preceding verses are about the process of how you go about dealing with a sinning brother. So therefore the statement itself is about that also!

Of course.. the application of the statement can also apply to other situations.. but it is still within a certain setting- a local church.

Another example

'He who endures to the end will be saved'-- used by many to say that salvation is either earned or you don't have it till you die.

Context of this? About enduring trials and persecution.. 'saved' as in delivered.. rescued.. etc..

NOT about being saved eternally.

It goes on and on.

What about this one?
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Is it truth or lie, that God will give us "what things soever WE DESIRE", if we believe we received it when we prayed?
Did Jesus mean what He said or not? Is this a whole truth or does it need help from other verses to make it the whole council of God?
What say you sir?

 

[wattie]

What about this one?
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Is it truth or lie, that God will give us "what things soever WE DESIRE", if we believe we received it when we prayed?
Did Jesus mean what He said or not? Is this a whole truth or does it need help from other verses to make it the whole council of God?
What say you sir?

Of course it is true, but when compared with other verses about asking God for things that are pure and holy, then of course God isn't going to answer a prayer for a new one million dollar car just because you desire it.

I suppose a prayer that God may answer would be along the lines of desiring someone to come to your church. It lines up with God's own will.

But again.. what are the surrounding verses? That would determine the meaning of the verse itself. I think the surrounding verses will be more defining of what the desiring is of.

 

[crossnote]

What He speaks is TRUTH. It can be no other way since there is no darkness or lie found in Him.
We are to abide in Him, in His Word, in Truth.

But this script is only words, yet His Word creates what it speaks.
To go against that Word is to butt heads with the Creator.

 

[know1]

Of course it is true, but when compared with other verses about asking God for things that are pure and holy, then of course God isn't going to answer a prayer for a new one million dollar car just because you desire it.

I suppose a prayer that God may answer would be along the lines of desiring someone to come to your church. It lines up with God's own will.

But again.. what are the surrounding verses? That would determine the meaning of the verse itself. I think the surrounding verses will be more defining of what the desiring is of.

Sir, it's very clear. The scripture says, whatever WE desire.
If God didn't mean whatever, then He shouldn't have written whatever.
And if God didn't mean what WE DESIRE, then He shouldn't have written what we desire.
What I am getting at is the fact that we change what is written to what we think it means, because we can't accept what is written as being what God really meant. And in so doing, the word of God is no longer the truth, as it is written, but is watered down to, as we see it. Because surely God couldn't possibly mean whatever we desire, but that is what is written and what it says.
So why do we change what is written to fit our beliefs?
That is one reason why we see so few miracles of God.
No one believes what is written, no one believes that He meant what He said.

 

[know1]

What He speaks is TRUTH. It can be no other way since there is no darkness or lie found in Him.
We are to abide in Him, in His Word, in Truth.

But this script is only words, yet His Word creates what it speaks.
To go against that Word is to butt heads with the Creator.

So long as we don't change what is written, it will be truth. But if we try to change the meaning of what is written, to fit what we think it should be, then we have corrupted God's word and made it of none or without effect. God watches over His word to perform it, not what you turn it into.

 

[Pacman]

[h=2]What is truth and who is of it?[/h]

God is truth and all those who are born of God are of the truth.

 

[crossnote]

So long as we don't change what is written, it will be truth. But if we try to change the meaning of what is written, to fit what we think it should be, then we have corrupted God's word and made it of none or without effect. God watches over His word to perform it, not what you turn it into.

What is written in God's Word is True regardless of how man mangles it.
There is what is written.
There is what is man's interpretation or alteration...different.
God's Word is objectively the same Truth but it goes through the subjective filters of man's interpretation.
Our goal is to find the intended meaning of the objective Word of God.

 

[know1]

What is written in God's Word is True regardless of how man mangles it.
There is what is written.
There is what is man's interpretation or alteration...different.
God's Word is objectively the same Truth but it goes through the subjective filters of man's interpretation.
Our goal is to find the intended meaning of the objective Word of God.

They say, if you want to hide something, put it in plain sight, that it might be overlooked and not seen.
What if the meaning is as plain as that which is written in front of them? What if God really meant what He said, as it is written and not what men are trying to make it say?
What if it works for those who believe it as it is and it works for them but the so called children of God think and say you are lying?
What if God is trying to get you to see the truth but you refuse to accept it as truth.
How can we be the children of Truth if we refuse to accept it?

 

[know1]

God is truth and all those who are born of God are of the truth.

In order to be children of God and of the Truth, one must receive the truth of God. And for that to be done, I believe they must agree with and accept what is written AS IS.

 

[wattie]

Sir, it's very clear. The scripture says, whatever WE desire.
If God didn't mean whatever, then He shouldn't have written whatever.
And if God didn't mean what WE DESIRE, then He shouldn't have written what we desire.
What I am getting at is the fact that we change what is written to what we think it means, because we can't accept what is written as being what God really meant. And in so doing, the word of God is no longer the truth, as it is written, but is watered down to, as we see it. Because surely God couldn't possibly mean whatever we desire, but that is what is written and what it says.
So why do we change what is written to fit our beliefs?
That is one reason why we see so few miracles of God.
No one believes what is written, no one believes that He meant what He said.

It's true we are to take what God said as is. This also means comparing verse with verse line upon line..

If you take a brick out of wall, the wall is incomplete and may collapse.

So if you take one verse out of it's surrounds.. then meaning is incomplete and the whole passage loses meaning.

Like if someone was reading thru the bible and sees 'Judas hung himself' and then just randomly let's another page drop open and it says 'Go and do thus'

That is obviously out of context

So yah... I agree with you.. to take the words as God has them, but not take those words out of the context within they are set.

Time, place, location, who, what, where, when, why..

 

[mwc68]

So how do we determine who or what denomination has the truth or truths of God and are of God and who doesn't?
If one looks around, one would see that we so called Christians are very diverse in our beliefs, and most of it has come from the same book.
How is that?

No authority in interpreting scriptures

 

[crossnote]

They say, if you want to hide something, put it in plain sight, that it might be overlooked and not seen.
What if the meaning is as plain as that which is written in front of them? What if God really meant what He said, as it is written and not what men are trying to make it say?

I believe for the most part that is the case, but Peter mentioned that there are some things of Paul which are difficult to understand and that those who are unstable twist his words.

What if it works for those who believe it as it is and it works for them but the so called children of God think and say you are lying?

Getting God's Word to 'work' for you does not guarantee you have the correct intended meaning.

What if God is trying to get you to see the truth but you refuse to accept it as truth.

This happens all the time. I believe the Holy Spirit has His way of imparting the needed wisdom.

How can we be the children of Truth if we refuse to accept it?

You can't until you do accept it.

 

[know1]

It's true we are to take what God said as is. This also means comparing verse with verse line upon line..

If you take a brick out of wall, the wall is incomplete and may collapse.

So if you take one verse out of it's surrounds.. then meaning is incomplete and the whole passage loses meaning.

Like if someone was reading thru the bible and sees 'Judas hung himself' and then just randomly let's another page drop open and it says 'Go and do thus'

That is obviously out of context

So yah... I agree with you.. to take the words as God has them, but not take those words out of the context within they are set.

Time, place, location, who, what, where, when, why..

That's true to a point, but in many cases, that doesn't apply, because most of the who it was talking to were Jews, and that is why we have many pastors telling their congregations that the power was given only to they apostles because that is who He was speaking to. And so many miss out on the truth.
Sorry, that was a bad example, but I hope you understood what I was trying to get at.

 

[wattie]

That's true to a point, but in many cases, that doesn't apply, because most of the who it was talking to were Jews, and that is why we have many pastors telling their congregations that the power was given only to they apostles because that is who He was speaking to. And so many miss out on the truth.
Sorry, that was a bad example, but I hope you understood what I was trying to get at.

Yeah I understand what you mean. The things Jesus said to His disciples or things said to apostles would apply if Jesus never gives a limit on it being just to them.

So some things have been given a limit- like God said He would never flood the world again. The Law was superceded by the NT covenant. Sacrificing of bulls and goats was superceded by NT covenant. There are other examples

I believe Jesus did give a limit as far as the apostles go.. I believe once the Word was completed and the apostles passed away.. the sign and ministry gifts fulfilled their purpose.

That would probably be a difference in doctrine

 

[Jeff_56]

What about this one?
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Is it truth or lie, that God will give us "what things soever WE DESIRE", if we believe we received it when we prayed?...

remembering that most people never receive eternal life, righteousness, peace, joy or the kingdom of heaven, no matter how much they cry or pray or 'cut themselves'(penance),

think about a 3 year old boy with his father.

his father tells him , at home, or perhaps while out and about,

whatever you see or want, let me know, and i will get it for you.

many fathers do this. but they don't get the 3 year old a barge, or an aircraft carrier, or a bmw, or a diamond ring, or a air compressor (usually), etc etc etc etc

yahweh is not stupid. he won't give his children something that he won't give his children...
and he knows what he says, what he has said, forever.... HE KNOWS....
men(of the world/rcc/mankind) are stupid. they don't know.

yahshua(yahweh's salvation) said that life is not about getting, but giving.....

 

[know1]

remembering that most people never receive eternal life, righteousness, peace, joy or the kingdom of heaven, no matter how much they cry or pray or 'cut themselves'(penance),

think about a 3 year old boy with his father.

his father tells him , at home, or perhaps while out and about,

whatever you see or want, let me know, and i will get it for you.

many fathers do this. but they don't get the 3 year old a barge, or an aircraft carrier, or a bmw, or a diamond ring, or a air compressor (usually), etc etc etc etc

yahweh is not stupid. he won't give his children something that he won't give his children...
and he knows what he says, what he has said, forever.... HE KNOWS....
men(of the world/rcc/mankind) are stupid. they don't know.

yahshua(yahweh's salvation) said that life is not about getting, but giving.....

I certainly did no such thing with my children.
Are you telling me that God will not hold to the promises He made to us in His word because we are stupid?
You speak for yourself sir, not for me.
Can God be a hypocrite? Can He lie, give half truths, or be deceitful in any way?
Then why follow worldly reasoning and logic, such as that which you gave, when scripture says otherwise?
2Co 1:20 Forallthe promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Mat 7:7 Ask, andit shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 Forevery one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Keeping in mind that ALL the promises of God are always, yes and amen. And the word, all, really means, ALL.
God does not say, NO. He may not hear you because of your sin, but when you stand on His word/promises He cannot deny Himself and say, no.
Aside from telling us that EVERY ONE that asks Him for something shall receive it or it shall be given them, He also says, if our children ask us for something like bread, would we be mean or cruel and give them something other than what they asked for, or something evil? The obvious answer is, of course not.
Then He goes on to say, that if we being evil know how to give good things to our children, then how much more shall God give good things to them that ask Him?
And, as you would have others do to you, do the same to them. God cannot tell you to do something that He would not or does not do Himself, because He is not, nor can He be a hypocrite.
God loves you, so He would want and expect the same from you.
Remember, every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights.
Therefore, if it is a good thing, God will give it, because God is a good God.
So, what does God call a good thing?

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham said to the rich man that he had received good things while he was alive in the natural world and Lazarus evil or bad things.
So what were the good things the rich man received?
Wasn't it wealth, expensive clothing and material, donkeys, big house, servants, and the like?
How did God bless Abraham and Job? Wasn't it with wealth and riches and livestock and servants and children and so on? If this is how God blessed them, and called it good things, then it is not a bad thing to ask for the same today.
Even though God did not want Israel to have a king, He gave them one, and when they wanted meat in the desert, He gave them that as well with a wasting disease, because of the hardness of their hearts and the complaining.

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

 

[know1]

Yeah I understand what you mean. The things Jesus said to His disciples or things said to apostles would apply if Jesus never gives a limit on it being just to them.

So some things have been given a limit- like God said He would never flood the world again. The Law was superceded by the NT covenant. Sacrificing of bulls and goats was superceded by NT covenant. There are other examples

I believe Jesus did give a limit as far as the apostles go.. I believe once the Word was completed and the apostles passed away.. the sign and ministry gifts fulfilled their purpose.

That would probably be a difference in doctrine

If the signs and gifts passed away with the apostles, then so did the faith that caused the signs, wonder, miracle, and gifts.
You probably don't know it, but there are many today, walking with signs following, because of their faith.
Even turning steel into flesh and bone in the body. It is happening today. It did not go away with the apostles.
Again, this is where you have changed that which is written to what you think.

 

[Jeff_56]

......
Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

let's clarify>> (that's all.... clarify)
simply your question was (or appeared to be) >>>>>
"Is it truth or lie, that God will give us "what things soever WE DESIRE", if we believe we received it when we prayed?..."

and as psalms says, do you think God will give you something you desire if it is NOT good ;

and do you think God will give you something you desire if you do NOT walk uprightly in HIS SIGHT?

from HIS WORD, the TRUTH is simple.

from HIS WORD, that's what is good.

 

[know1]

let's clarify>> (that's all.... clarify)
simply your question was (or appeared to be) >>>>>
"Is it truth or lie, that God will give us "what things soever WE DESIRE", if we believe we received it when we prayed?..."

and as psalms says, do you think God will give you something you desire if it is NOT good ;

and do you think God will give you something you desire if you do NOT walk uprightly in HIS SIGHT?

from HIS WORD, the TRUTH is simple.

from HIS WORD, that's what is good.

Yes sir, I believe that is what I said.
God will give that which is good to them that walk uprightly.
Didn't Israel reject God and want a king like the other nations around them? Didn't God warn them of the evil that would follow if they had a king other than God?
God does good to the upright and evil to the wicked.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Pro 3:33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

 

[wattie]

If the signs and gifts passed away with the apostles, then so did the faith that caused the signs, wonder, miracle, and gifts.
You probably don't know it, but there are many today, walking with signs following, because of their faith.
Even turning steel into flesh and bone in the body. It is happening today. It did not go away with the apostles.
Again, this is where you have changed that which is written to what you think.

Well, 1 Corinthians 13 points to a time in which sign gifts cease.. "when that which is perfect is come"..

Ephesians 4 has point at which ministry gifts cease.. 'till we all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith'

The completed bible -- completed Word of God fits these passages like a glove. Try and put the second coming of Christ in there and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But I won't get into that now. The main thing of the thread is what truth is. And I think we both agree that it is the Word in context.