What parts of Torah can we still keep today?

[Bladerunner]

Hebrews 7:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 9:31-33

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


The Lord Jesus Christ didn't have the authority to take the curse of the law away from us?

I wonder how long it would be tolerated to go onto a Jewish site and proclaim Jesus? I'm not sure why this judaism nonsense is tolerated here.

They already tried to blend Judaism and Christianity 2000 yrs ago. It didn't blend. See Acts 15. And pretty much the rest of the New Testament.

I see no blending here. The Age of Grace was for everyone. The Age of Law had been put to rest when Jesus Christ was Crucified, Buried and Resurrected according to scripture. Right now we are in the 'Age of the Church' which will end at the rapture. God will again turn his eye back to the Israel that have not accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah. According to the scripture, those who believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (regardless of their ethnicity) are the "CHURCH" the bible speaks of. Not the buildings or denominations. Only those that believe the Gospel.

I see no Blending of Judaism and the Gentiles here.

Have a Blessed Day!

Blade

 

[disciplemike]

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8)

QED

Originally Posted by disciplemike

what salvation? if gentiles are not under the law at all, there is no sin. no salvation needed.

Hold on a minute. This is what you said about the law for gentiles:

Connock - At no point in history were gentiles ever constrained by the Law of Moses

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.
You are making the Bible out to be false?
How can every gentile be a sinner if they never had any law?

 

[LaurenTM]

the following article can be found on the JEWS FOR JESUS website

makes for very interesting reading when you consider these people are actually Jewish and have been born again


As Jewish believers, we often encourage Gentile Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith. Many benefit from the insights they gain from these connections. However, a growing segment of believers are demonstrating an excessive interest in their Jewish roots, which can be harmful to their spiritual health.

These people have forgotten that God loves every nation, and that all cultures have unique contributions to make to the Body of Messiah. Gentiles who say, "We are no longer Gentiles, regardless of our background" are confused and on the road to spiritual trouble. Adherents of the so-called "Two House Theory" constitute one group that has fallen into this kind of error.
Hebraic Roots teachers call upon believers to study Hebrew and learn about Jewish culture, which most of us can appreciate. More often than not, however, they call Gentiles to a Torah-observant and/or festival observant lifestyle as a means of drawing closer to Jesus and being conformed to His image. The implication is, if you really want to please God, if you really want to be holy, here are the rules. Even though most do not believe these observances are necessary for one's salvation, there is often an implication that this is the higher way. Scripture warns against such things.

MORE HERE

 

[Grace777x70]

Hold on a minute. This is what you said about the law for gentiles:



Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.
You are making the Bible out to be false?
How can every gentile be a sinner if they never had any law?

The answer is simple.

Paul told us that the gentiles have the work of the law written on their hearts. It is from Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The law is the manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and we were never meant to live like that. God gave the law to the Jews as an example of how we cannot live the law and we need a Savior.

The purpose of the Law has been fulfilled and it has led us to Christ and to see our need for a Savior and that we can't keep the law no matter how much we "think" we are observing the law.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

 

[hornetguy]

I have not (and will not) read this whole thread arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

In answer to the OP.... you can keep as much of the Torah as YOU please. Knock yourself out.

"As for me and my house.." we will serve God and live freely in His grace and salvation, freely given to us, once and for all, through the sacrifice of His son, and our savior, Jesus Christ. And we will do our best to walk in the light, following to the best of our ability the commands Jesus gave us... Love the Lord God with all our hearts, and love our neighbor as we do ourselves.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Matt,
Thank you for your thoughtful response and opportunity to clarify. My comment on rules was meant to describe human nature, not the Law of Moses. It is not to attack the Torah or Judaism, only to illustrate the universal natural human tendency to define their religion/faith, in whole or in part, to a 'moral code'. I know of no exception, and for the most part, many Christian denominations are guilty of falling ("relapsing") into this mindset.

Someone made the comment that its baffling how Christians would voluntarily start observing Mosaic Law. I see it the same way. If we do, we are clearly required to keep all of it (Gal 5:3). Nobody (not even the most orthodox Jews) can do this successfully. We instead have Christ, and His work on the Cross was perfect - all we need.

One possible reason (and there are probably more) is this natural human rule-keeping compulsion that we observe universally across cultures. Christianity attempts a radically different approach. Christ's work on the cross is perfect and complete. Our faith does not require us to follow the Mosaic Law, but does transform us and compel us to act compassionately and ethically. A Christian's actions (works) are not the cause of, but rather the result of, of our salvation. That is what I meant to say, perhaps ineloquently. I don't know of any other faith system that does this (though again, there's a lot I don't know).

If you meant "there are many denominations that would prove otherwise" in the sense of Christian denominations that attempt to keep the Law of Moses (or another explicit list of rules) then I 100% agree with you. The church in Galatia was one, and we still have them today. Peace in Christ to you.

well said, and I totally agree.

it's true that many christians feel there is a set of rules that go along with being a christian... tithe 10%, don't steal, don't commit adultery...

for the most part these are harmless enough... though it can provide a 'gateway' for things like the hebrew roots movement... after all, the same God who said 'don't steal' also said 'keep these feasts'.

 

[FreeNChrist]

well said, and I totally agree.

it's true that many christians feel there is a set of rules that go along with being a christian... tithe 10%, don't steal, don't commit adultery...

for the most part these are harmless enough... though it can provide a 'gateway' for things like the hebrew roots movement... after all, the same God who said 'don't steal' also said 'keep these feasts'.

Yep. The same God also said this;

"I have had enough of burnt offerings...Bring your worthless offerings no longer...I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts; they have become a burden to Me... So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you... I will not listen..." (Isaiah 1:10-15)


“I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies." (Amos 5:21)

 

[Dan_473]

Yep. The same God also said this;

"I have had enough of burnt offerings...Bring your worthless offerings no longer...I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts; they have become a burden to Me... So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you... I will not listen..." (Isaiah 1:10-15)


“I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies." (Amos 5:21)

very true!

one thing I can't find God saying* is

"you get a free pass on those laws that require a temple or sons of aaron, if those aren't around".

that would mean all of Torah is broken all the time... whether you eat bacon or not...



*I'm interested if someone else has?

 

[Connock]

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.
You are making the Bible out to be false?
How can every gentile be a sinner if they never had any law?

Thank you Mike for your thoughtful reply and opportunity to better explain (my post you reference was too brief).

By "Law" I think we both are referring to the Mosaic Law. OK.

By "Sin" I think we are not referring to the same thing.

You seem (correct me if I am wrong) to define Sin as transgressing the Mosaic Law. I'm not saying this is wrong per se - transgressing the Mosaic Law is indeed Sin. On that we also agree. But here is where our paths diverge.

Sin is more than just breaking the Mosaic Law. It HAS to be, because it predates it. The Law of Moses was given in ca. 1450 BC. Sin dates back to Adam. It exceeds Mosaic Law.

And sin impacts ALL humanity (Ro 3:23) for all time (since Adam). The Law of Moses came with the Sinatic Covenant between God and ISRAEL--not all Humanity. It was NOT a decree forced on them, but a contract entered willingly. At what point in history did the Sinatic covenant (including the law of Moses) apply to non-Hebrews? (those that didn't voluntarily join Israel?)

So, sin predates the Mosaic Law (therefore cannot be defined by it) between God and ISRAEL (not all humanity). Peace in Christ to you.

 

[beta]

Yep. The same God also said this;

"I have had enough of burnt offerings...Bring your worthless offerings no longer...I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts; they have become a burden to Me... So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you... I will not listen..." (Isaiah 1:10-15)


“I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies." (Amos 5:21)

Did you also notice that God said your feasts, your solemn assemblies ?
God was not referring to His holy Feasts, His holy assemblies ! Lev 23
As I have mentioned many times....we are to put difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10 then we will understand God !

 

[FreeNChrist]

Did you also notice that God said your feasts, your solemn assemblies ?
God was not referring to His holy Feasts, His holy assemblies ! Lev 23
As I have mentioned many times....we are to put difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10 then we will understand God !

They were His holy feasts and His holy assemblies being done by those who were just playing at it. Just like those such as yourself today. God hates it.

 

[beta]

They were His holy feasts and His holy assemblies being done by those who were just playing at it. Just like those such as yourself today. God hates it.

You saying YOU keep them perfectly and God need not say these things to you ? How do you know what I keep and don't keep - since you are being personal ?

 

[Preacha24-7]

First of all were not under the Law, but Grace. There's no way that man could keep all 613 laws which were written by man not Jehovah. The Law was made for Jewish people not Gentiles. We're under the New Covenant (Grace) Man no longer has to sacrifice sheep and goats to God after they sin. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He gave his all so we could have eternal life. John8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. Only Jews and Muslims refuse to eat pork. Most Christians eat pork. God is not gonna send you to hell for eating pork. He is more concerned about the condition of your heart. Have you been born again? Have you received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? Is your heart pure before him or are you living for God or living a life of sin? Jesus is the only way to God. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. To God be the glory. These Scriptures came from New King James Version. Preacha24-7

 

[FreeNChrist]

You saying YOU keep them perfectly and God need not say these things to you ? How do you know what I keep and don't keep - since you are being personal ?

Sorry, I had no idea you were a native-born Israelite.

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 15:9 [SUP] [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1 Timothy 1:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Come join our broken, useless covenant. We misunderstand everything and try to make all the commandments into physical-carnal ones that we can work at and obey. We don't really hear the law, we just hear what we want to hear and we do our very best and use our "common" (lol) sense. And we definitely don't eat ham. People who are righteous don't eat ham and they go to church on saturdays. We're not like those sinners who celebrate easter and christmas and go to church on sunday. They are very bad but only because of their ignorance. If they learned the dates of all the feasts and took saturdays off and tell the teller at the drive thru window to hold the bacon, then they can start to be holy and righteous like us. Did you know that Jesus was Jewish?


Are you so foolish? Do you have no understanding of the New Testament whatsoever?

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


If you go back to trying to follow the old covenant in a physical way by your own understanding then there was absolutely no need that another priest should arise after the order of Melchisedec. Anyone, at anytime, can do that without any of the New Testament to bother them.


I wish I could just wish you good luck in your emulation of the carnal Jew. But that is a curse and condemnation in disguise. There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death.

Colossians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[jcha]

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect.
(Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh.
(PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT) (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself.
(Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

The Law is a manifestation of the tree of knowledge of good and evil brought to man from the fall of Adam. We were never meant to eat from that tree. Only God. We eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh.

Oh my, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto.

 

[Connock]

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

Dear Jcha, I can agree with 10 of your points, but on #2:
Do you mean the Law "defines" sin or "describes" sin? Your citations support "describes", in the sense of the Law "enlightens/educates us to sin", but do not support "defines" in the sense of the Law "determines the identity (no more/no less) of sin". The difference is important. Rather than assume, I thought it best to let you clarify first.

 

[disciplemike]

1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2. The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3. The Law is perfect.
(Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4. The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)

6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)

8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)

9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh.
(PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT) (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself.
(Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)

nice post.
can I borrow this sometimes?